Catholics turned Other religions..What can you say about them?

[ferdie]

Catechism is almost non existent where I grew up. You can get your first communion and get confirmed without being catechized, unlike here in the US of A, everyone has to go to catechism before receiving first communion and before confirmation.

 

[Hesychios]

Yes, and priests who are in the clerical state, discharging their office, are addressed as “Father.” After the Bull was published, he wasn’t.

GH

In all honesty, I doubt that he cared for the honorific anyway.

 

[Hesychios]

kristine105, how are Catholic children who attend public school catechized? Back in the 70’s and 80’s we didn’t have formal catechism.

When I grew up in the 50’s and 60’s we had CCD class: Confraternity of Christian Doctrine.

The nuns taught us. It was very effective.

The Byzantine Catholic church, Metropolia of Pittsburgh (USA) these days is too small to support schools for the most part. Yet they are doing a bang-up job catechizing their youth. The school itself is not necessary (most of them closed now). Ditto for Orthodox parishes, parish schools are nice but often impractical.

Parishes like that are better served by establishing a good parish library, having Sunday School classes, seminars and lectures for all ages, LOTH and… of course… Bingo!

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I think we’re forgetting another possibility here. We’ve heard about these converts being ignorant, poorly-catechized, taking things personally, etc. Has anyone considered that maybe some of these folks were well-catechized and just didn’t agree with the theology and teachings of the Church? It’s not as if anyone who reads and understands the catechism automatically will agree with it. It’s not always a selfish, nasty, personal agenda that makes people leave Catholicism. Some folks have been taught the catechism very thoroughly and just, for whatever reason, their conscience leads them elsewhere.

And if poor catechesis is the main culprit then the Catholic Church didn’t do its job, the individual members of it, and we have ourselves to blame to some degree.

 

[Hesychios]

kristine105, how are Catholic children who attend public school catechized? Back in the 70’s and 80’s we didn’t have formal catechism.

When I grew up in the 50’s and 60’s we had CCD class: Confraternity of Christian Doctrine.

The nuns taught us. It was very effective.

The Byzantine Catholic church, Metropolia of Pittsburgh (USA) these days is too small to support schools for the most part. Yet they are doing a bang-up job catechizing their youth. The school itself is not necessary (most of them closed now). Ditto for Orthodox parishes, parish schools are nice but often impractical.

Parishes like that are better served by establishing a good parish library, having Sunday School classes, seminars and lectures for all ages, LOTH and… of course… Bingo!

Perhaps your situation in the Philippines was different because of a lack of clergy in some localities. North America is far better situated in regard to clergy, even today.

 

[Hesychios]

I think we’re forgetting another possibility here. We’ve heard about these converts being ignorant, poorly-catechized, taking things personally, etc. Has anyone considered that maybe some of these folks were well-catechized and just didn’t agree with the theology and teachings of the Church? It’s not as if anyone who reads and understands the catechism automatically will agree with it. It’s not always a selfish, nasty, personal agenda that makes people leave Catholicism. Some folks have been taught the catechism very thoroughly and just, for whatever reason, their conscience leads them elsewhere.

And if poor catechesis is the main culprit then the Catholic Church didn’t do its job, the individual members of it, and we have ourselves to blame to some degree.

Good point.

The assumption seems to be that if people do not agree, they MUST have been poorly taught! That is not necessarily the case.

In some cases the best informed may be the ones who leave first, and for reasons the rest of us couldn’t fathom because we don’t necessarily have the depth of knowledge to even recognize the issue that bothers them.

I can still remember a man in my neighborhood growing up. He had a family and I knew his son (my brother’s friend, older than I). What surprised me was that the man had been a Catholic seminarian (pre-Vatican II) and was actually excommunicated before he could be ordained, so the family were Lutherans when I knew them. I couldn’t believe that a man so dedicated to the Faith that he committed himself to becoming a priest… would have wound up excommunicated. I never knew why, but something he learned in seminary didn’t sit right with him. If he had never wanted to be a priest, he might have been ignorant of whatever it was that he later challenged, and possibly remained a Catholic his entire life.

This was not a case of lack of catechesis, in his case it may have been too much! There are many people with a 3rd grade level of catechesis and are happily devout. There are others that know enough to carry deep dark doubts and experience spiritual crises.

 

[ferdie]

When I grew up in the 50’s and 60’s we had CCD class: Confraternity of Christian Doctrine.

The nuns taught us. It was very effective.

The Byzantine Catholic church, Metropolia of Pittsburgh (USA) these days is too small to support schools for the most part. Yet they are doing a bang-up job catechizing their youth. The school itself is not necessary (most of them closed now). Ditto for Orthodox parishes, parish schools are nice but often impractical.

Parishes like that are better served by establishing a good parish library, having Sunday School classes, seminars and lectures for all ages, LOTH and… of course… Bingo!

Perhaps your situation in the Philippines was different because of a lack of clergy in some localities. North America is far better situated in regard to clergy, even today.

It is not the lack of clergy. We had enough clergy to cover almost 7 mass every day. And Philippines is also one of the third world countries that export priests. I think it was taken for granted that if you are born catholic the parents will catechize you. There were no programs to catechized children before receiving first communion and before confirmation. I remember when I had my first faith crisis, no one straightened me out, not even my relatives, none of whom had formal catechism except for my two aunts (50’s and early 60’s). I had to inform myself. The priest that I was trying to convert ( funny hah, trying to convert a priest, I was fired up because of the born again fundamentalist culture) told me that it was good that I had a spiritual awakening. He didn’t try convincing me back to the church, he just told me to pray and open my heart when reading the bible and read some Christian History.

 

[ferdie]

Good point.

The assumption seems to be that if people do not agree, they MUST have been poorly taught! That is not necessarily the case.

In some cases the best informed may be the ones who leave first, and for reasons the rest of us couldn’t fathom because we don’t necessarily have the depth of knowledge to even recognize the issue that bothers them.

I can still remember a man in my neighborhood growing up. He had a family and I knew his son (my brother’s friend, older than I). What surprised me was that the man had been a Catholic seminarian (pre-Vatican II) and was actually excommunicated before he could be ordained, so the family were Lutherans when I knew them. I couldn’t believe that a man so dedicated to the Faith that he committed himself to becoming a priest… would have wound up excommunicated. I never knew why, but something he learned in seminary didn’t sit right with him. If he had never wanted to be a priest, he might have been ignorant of whatever it was that he later challenged, and possibly remained a Catholic his entire life.

This was not a case of lack of catechesis, in his case it may have been too much! There are many people with a 3rd grade level of catechesis and are happily devout. There are others that know enough to carry deep dark doubts and experience spiritual crises.

Well it is my experience. Some say that they pray the rosary everyday, some say they were altar boys, some say they went to catholics school, some say they don’t get anything from the mass, some say they were misled by the Church, some say they never read the bible until they became born again. That is my experience! I’ve never heard anyone say, that they have read the catechism of the Catholic Church and not convince by it, nor anyone say that they have read the history of the Church and came to the conclusion that it was not Catholic. So yes, most converts from Catholicism to fundamentalist (in the Philippines) are not properly catechized. I don’t know any prominent Filipinos who are properly catechized converted to other non-catholic church. Except for Aglipay and some other priests.

 

[kalt]

I am surrounded of catholics turned to other religions… Most especially, Catholics converted to Born Again Christians… Their common reasons are:

• When they are not yet Christians, they tell bad words, do bad things and etc.
• They said that the statues of Mama Mary, Jesus and saints are a kind of idolatry.
• They are always questioning about the chastity of the priests.
• They say that we, the catholics, focus more on saints and not to God.

Maybe, they just didn’t understand these because they are not really focusing. It seems like they are blaming the Catholic religion that’s why they are not closer to God. And most especially, they did not know more on the innermost of being Catholic that’s why they get get carried away by the other religions and they cannot defend their faith… How about you? What are your thoughts about them?

This is purely my experience, so put your flame throwers away.

Most people (actually all) who weren’t brought up in a “born again” church but became “born again” have had problems with drugs, drinking or crime–usually a combination of more than one.

They are finding something in the “born again” churches that they don’t find in Catholicism. I think that thing is strict behavior codes–the most important, no drinking allowed. They seem to need an authoritarian rather than an authoritative church.

 

[kalt]

We didn’t have catechism when I was growing up. None of my classmates in elementary, high school and collage went to formal catechism, except those who went to catholic schools.
They are blaming the Catholic Church because that is what the fundamentalist church tell them. I know because I was one of them. I recently had contact with some of my schoolmates, and I wasn’t really surprised that some of them are now born again fundamentalists. One of them is now a pastor in Mindanao and the other a woman pastor in Manila.

Did you grow up in IL? I’m curious about your not having Catechism lessons as a child. Even my parents had them. Were the classes available and you didn’t go? How did you make your First Communion without having lessons? And your Confirmation?

 

[plato3]

Comes down to-if they really knew what they were leaving , they would never leave. All those protestant ministers that come on the program-“Journey Home” tell that they converted to the Catholic faith when they studied on their own-the early church Fathers and with an open mind realized the fullness of the faith was contained in the Catholic Church.

 

[estesbob]

I think we’re forgetting another possibility here. We’ve heard about these converts being ignorant, poorly-catechized, taking things personally, etc. Has anyone considered that maybe some of these folks were well-catechized and just didn’t agree with the theology and teachings of the Church? It’s not as if anyone who reads and understands the catechism automatically will agree with it. It’s not always a selfish, nasty, personal agenda that makes people leave Catholicism. Some folks have been taught the catechism very thoroughly and just, for whatever reason, their conscience leads them elsewhere.

And if poor catechesis is the main culprit then the Catholic Church didn’t do its job, the individual members of it, and we have ourselves to blame to some degree.

My experience is that the majority of them have traded the TRUTH for emotion.

 

[ferdie]

Did you grow up in IL? I’m curious about your not having Catechism lessons as a child. Even my parents had them. Were the classes available and you didn’t go? How did you make your First Communion without having lessons? And your Confirmation?

No, I grew up in the Manila, Philippines. I just talked to my parents, aunts, brother, cousins, and my schoolmates today. I asked them if they remember going to catholic catechism. Only my aunt remember being catechized by catholic high school students when she was in public elementary school, the rest said that they remember their confirmation but they were never catechized.
There were no classes available. I just started receiving communion, no classes. Same thing with confirmation. My brother went to catholic school and he remember his catechism classes. I went to public school and we didn’t have any catechism. We had a subject called 'Good Manners and Right Conduct (GMRC) during 5th and 6th grade, but nothing about the religious education.
We had illustrated bible (comics style) when I was in elementary school. First time I seriously read the bible was in my collage days when I was attending non-denominational bible study.

 

[ferdie]

My experience is that the majority of them have traded the TRUTH for emotion.

This is so true in the Philippines. The problem is that they didn’t know that they traded the truth, and they think that by being emotional they are experiencing the truth. The way I see it, if by being born again they become better people, then so be it.

 

[mark_a]

I am surrounded of catholics turned to other religions… Most especially, Catholics converted to Born Again Christians… Their common reasons are:

• When they are not yet Christians, they tell bad words, do bad things and etc.
• They said that the statues of Mama Mary, Jesus and saints are a kind of idolatry.
• They are always questioning about the chastity of the priests.
• They say that we, the catholics, focus more on saints and not to God.

Maybe, they just didn’t understand these because they are not really focusing. It seems like they are blaming the Catholic religion that’s why they are not closer to God. And most especially, they did not know more on the innermost of being Catholic that’s why they get get carried away by the other religions and they cannot defend their faith… How about you? What are your thoughts about them?

Many, many, many Catholics here in the U.S. leave the Catholic Church because they don’t like and fall short of the Church’s teachings on chastity, marriage, divorce, contraception, and abortion.

So they leave and try justify their moral shortcomings with supposedly superior faith reasons (bible only, anti-Mary, no confession, anti-Christ pope, etc.).

These folks generally have a lot of anger in their hearts which they focus toward Catholics.

And that’s about the size of it.

 

[StillWondering]

Well it is my experience. Some say that they pray the rosary everyday, some say they were altar boys, some say they went to catholics school, some say they don’t get anything from the mass, some say they were misled by the Church, some say they never read the bible until they became born again. That is my experience! I’ve never heard anyone say, that they have read the catechism of the Catholic Church and not convince by it, nor anyone say that they have read the history of the Church and came to the conclusion that it was not Catholic. So yes, most converts from Catholicism to fundamentalist (in the Philippines) are not properly catechized. I don’t know any prominent Filipinos who are properly catechized converted to other non-catholic church. Except for Aglipay and some other priests.

I had a similar experience with my catechism and I had a period of straying from the Church, though always carrying the name of Catholic. I apparently thought that Catholics believe other things than what is in the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

It must have been during a period where many adults did not take my questions seriously or believed that “spiritual awakenings” will naturally lead me to the right path. I did not have regular catechism classes to develop my reasoning as many assumed since I was so spiritual. Basically, my younger self would have definitely appreciated it if someone had taught me or even say, “what is it that you think? Oh no, this is not what the Church believes.” In fact, I never even heard of the CCC till I was out in college and already living a very un-Catholic life. And even after purchasing the book, I did not read it till eight years later because I did not know what it really was. I simply thought it was a book to have, not a book to read.

 

[StillWondering]

Good point.

The assumption seems to be that if people do not agree, they MUST have been poorly taught! That is not necessarily the case.

In some cases the best informed may be the ones who leave first, and for reasons the rest of us couldn’t fathom because we don’t necessarily have the depth of knowledge to even recognize the issue that bothers them.

I can still remember a man in my neighborhood growing up. He had a family and I knew his son (my brother’s friend, older than I). What surprised me was that the man had been a Catholic seminarian (pre-Vatican II) and was actually excommunicated before he could be ordained, so the family were Lutherans when I knew them. I couldn’t believe that a man so dedicated to the Faith that he committed himself to becoming a priest… would have wound up excommunicated. I never knew why, but something he learned in seminary didn’t sit right with him. If he had never wanted to be a priest, he might have been ignorant of whatever it was that he later challenged, and possibly remained a Catholic his entire life.

This was not a case of lack of catechesis, in his case it may have been too much! There are many people with a 3rd grade level of catechesis and are happily devout. There are others that know enough to carry deep dark doubts and experience spiritual crises.

Have you looked into this man’s story? If he was excommunicated before he was ordained, did he already became a deacon and had vows? Certain actions by the laity, such as abortion, automatically excommunicates a person. If he has already become a clergy when he was excommunicated, he might have been disseminating heresies, broken his vows, or any other reason. You may already know this Hesychios, but I had to mention it again in case anyone read this and had misinformed concepts of excommunication.

In general, when one is excommunicated (only professing Catholics are excommunicated from my understanding), one is not able to receive the Eucharist nor practice any clerical faculties. This is to prevent both scandal, such as causing others to be confused about Church teachings through personal witness, and to encourage the offender to take an active role in studying the transaction, understanding the Church’s story, and making a commitment to repent and return if at all possible.

 

[cheese_sdc]

Catholics turned Other religions…What can you say about them?

I would say that they are sometimes misinformed about some trivial particulars of Catholicism, but they are always brave. They are willing to defy family and friends in order to follow Truth as they understand it. For that alone, I commend them.

 

[Gerry_Hunter]

I would say that they are sometimes misinformed about some trivial particulars of Catholicism, but they are always brave. They are willing to defy family and friends in order to follow Truth as they understand it. For that alone, I commend them.

This reflects a scenario where truth is a subjective, rather than an objective, entity. Not only can one not be a Catholic with that outlook, one cannot even be a theist.

Someone who would leave based on this kind of subjective truth could, perhaps, be following their conscience, but they would have failed to understand the role of conscience, and the duty to form the conscience, as the Church teaches. That would be a state of being misinformed about a very serious matter.

And the notion that defiance is somehow admirable in its own right is not tenable. One must always ask, “Defiant of what?” Defying evil is good; defying God and His Church is not. At best, it is an error, and who admires errors?

Blessings,

Gerry

 

[cheese_sdc]

This reflects a scenario where truth is a subjective, rather than an objective, entity. Not only can one not be a Catholic with that outlook, one cannot even be a theist.

I believe, like you, that Truth is not subjective. However, I believe that our understanding of that Truth is subjective and can change.