Catholics turned Other religions..What can you say about them?

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  • They said that the statues of Mama Mary, Jesus and saints are a kind of idolatry.
I don’t understand why this keeps coming up. In Exodus 25:18-22 & Exodus 26:1,31 we see God commands the making of the image of a golden cherubim but his heavenly image is not worshiped by the Israelites. Instead, the image disposes their minds to the supernatural and draws them to God. We read in I Kings 6:23-36; I Kings 7:27-39; I Kings 8:6-67 that Solomon’s temple contains statues of cherubim and images of cherubim, oxen and lions. God did not condemn these images that were used in worship. Instead, we are told that the temple was pleasing to God. It was only when the people began to worship the statue did they incur God’s wrath, and the king destroyed it as we see in 2 Kings 18:4. The command prohibiting the use of graven images deals EXCLUSIVELY with the false WORSHIP of those images.
 
I believe, like you, that Truth is not subjective. However, I believe that our understanding of that Truth is subjective and can change.
Indeed. But when our understanding of truth is or becomes flawed, then we are not in truth. We are in error. One who follows a change in understanding of truth into error may or may not be culpable for that action. But they are responsible for it, and they are in error.

Some argue that no one can really know the truth. Some revisionists argue that "no one knows the will of God … " on an issue they wish to be decided in their own favour. The first argument is poppycock, that was of late wrapped into a pseudo-intellectual covering and called “postmodernism.” And the second argument cannot prevail since the Church is an unerring teacher in matters of faith and morals.

Blessings,

Gerry
 
Indeed. But when our understanding of truth is or becomes flawed…
Understanding of Truth is only flawed only when it becomes a means to exert power over another person or to hurt another. The doctrinal discussions that consume many on this website are like the passing of the breeze to Divinity. I believe that It just smiles, and allows us to fight over what we think is important. None of it really matters.
Some revisionists argue that "no one knows the will of God … "
And their is a person who does know the will of God?
And the second argument cannot prevail since the Church is an unerring teacher in matters of faith and morals.
🙂 Unerring. Mmmmm. If you say so.
 
Understanding of Truth is only flawed only when it becomes a means to exert power over another person or to hurt another. The doctrinal discussions that consume many on this website are like the passing of the breeze to Divinity. I believe that It just smiles, and allows us to fight over what we think is important. None of it really matters.
To take the sentences in order: no, no, no, and no. Understanding of truth is flawed when it fails to apprehend the truth and ends up in error. Using truth to exert power is a misuse of the truth, not a misunderstanding of it. It would actually be very hard to misuse the truth to effect without an understanding of it, just as it would be very hard to use it to good effect with a misunderstanding of it. Doctrine matters since truth matters.
And their is a person who does know the will of God?
That’s flippant, and moves the discussion out of the area of the statement it seeks to reply to. Note that the statement was framed with reference to issues. And yes, there ARE issues where God has revealed His will very plainly, and we can’t not know what it is for that issue. Merely because we cannot possibly grasp God’s will in its entirety, on every issue, does not mean that we cannot grasp it on some issues, particularly those issues where He has revealed it. It’s not a matter of figuring out what it is when He has taken the trouble to inform us of it. It’s a matter of paying heed.

Oh yes, and the word you wanted was “there”.
🙂 Unerring. Mmmmm. If you say so.
No, not on my say-so, and it is an insult to every Catholic on this (Catholic) site to say that the assertion is merely an individual opinion. Assent to it may be an individual choice, but that’s a different matter. Take caution with your tone.

Blessings,

Gerry
 
I would say that they are sometimes misinformed about some trivial particulars of Catholicism, but they are always brave. They are willing to defy family and friends in order to follow Truth as they understand it. For that alone, I commend them.
I just wish that before they defy the Church, they try to understand Her teaching first and do an unbiased study of Church History and doctrines. In my experience with born again fundamentalists, most if not all, have not tried to understand catholic teaching. They just swallowed whatever fundamentalists fed them without doing independent investigation.
 
Doctrine matters since truth matters.
From “The Song of the Bird”, Fr. Anthony De Mello, SJ
I could hardly believe my eyes when I saw the name of the shop: THE TRUTH SHOP.
The salesgirl was very polite: what type of Truth did I wish to purchase, partial or whole? The whole Truth, of course, no deceptions for me, no defenses, no rationalizations. I wanted my Truth plain and unadulterated. She waved me on to another side of the store.
The salesman there pointed to the price tag. “The price is very high, sir.” He said. “What is it?” I asked, determined to get the whole Truth, no matter the cost. “Your security, sir.” He answered.
I came away with a heavy heart. I still need the security of my unquestioned beliefs.
And another one of my favorites:
The Devil went for a walk with a friend. They saw a man up ahead of them stoop and pick something up from the ground.
“What did that man find?” asked the friend. “A piece of the Truth” replied the Devil. Doesn’t that disturb you?" asked the friend.
“No,” replied the Devil, “I shall let him make a belief out of it”.
 
From “The Song of the Bird”, Fr. Anthony De Mello, SJ
Big surprise: Quote from an author who, it has been noted, did not profess the Catholic Faith in his writings. The departures are pointed out here should anyone be interested in knowing them.

It’s rather obvious, but quoting this errant Jesuit does not change that doctrine matters because truth matters.

Blessings,

Gerry
 
I’ve read the Vatican’s take on De Mello. I first read De Mello at a retreat center and immediate loved “The Song of the Bird.” Then I read the Vatican document you linked. shrugs It was a long road, but a good one.
 
I am surrounded of catholics turned to other religions… Most especially, Catholics converted to Born Again Christians… Their common reasons are:
- When they are not yet Christians, they tell bad words, do bad things and etc.
- They said that the statues of Mama Mary, Jesus and saints are a kind of idolatry.
- They are always questioning about the chastity of the priests.
- They say that we, the catholics, focus more on saints and not to God.

Maybe, they just didn’t understand these because they are not really focusing. It seems like they are blaming the Catholic religion that’s why they are not closer to God. And most especially, they did not know more on the innermost of being Catholic that’s why they get get carried away by the other religions and they cannot defend their faith… How about you? What are your thoughts about them?
Hello,

I humbly offer my experience… I’ve been on “both sides of the fence” with this. I was raised Catholic, and came to know the Lord as a Catholic, yet later I joined with non-Catholic Charismatic groups. I did this partly because there are no Catholic Charismatic groups in my area. Be that as it may, among non-Catholic Christians who are former Catholics, I find the vast majority of these people simply did not know the Lord during their Catholic days. I’ve known many people who were like this… brought up Catholic but didn’t know the Lord for themselves but came to Him via a non-Catholic Christian group or church.

To me, the sheer ignorance of Catholicism of many in such groups is simply astonishing. It’s obvious that many of those who claim Catholics are basically not even Christian just don’t know what the Church believes or teaches.

Personally, I pray for the unity of all Christians. I can understand and accept differences within Christendom, but also strongly believe in ecumenicalism which I furthermore believe is pleasing to our Lord. The followers of Jesus and the knowledge of Him being God is what makes a Christian a Christian, and if we’d all get along better, I believe a significant amount more souls would come to know Him, and know Him sooner.

Blessings,

sp
 
My former Catholic FIL told me that rules and rituals get in the way of our relationship with God. Rules like not eating meat on Fridays - so, respecting the bodily death of Jesus on the cross for our sins gets in the way of our relationship with Him???🤷

He said the church wouldn’t marry him and his non-catholic wife - The Church WOULD marry them, his wife wouldn’t agree to raising their children Catholic.:nope:

He says he doesn’t have to work anymore. What was so labourious for him I don’t know.:hammering:

He says he never felt good enough (when he was Catholic). Get in line, we’re all sinners.:imsorry:

I pray at every chance for him to come home with his family.

I’d say squashed pride and his own stubborness and weakness what was made him leave. And I think that he wants to have the control, the whole ‘you can’t tell me what to do’ attitude - unfortunately that attitude has rubbed off onto his son as well…

Lovely guy, just a bit troubled I think, and I suppose that’s the opportune time for Satan to take hold.
 
kristine105, how are Catholic children who attend public school catechized? Back in the 70’s and 80’s we didn’t have formal catechism.
I studied in a Catholic school and transferred to Christian school for some reasons yet i still believe in Catholic faith but i have some friends who are studying in public schools, i think they are cathechized through the cathechizing before their confirmation but it still depends on them if they want to attend a regular cathechism school in some churches but I am trying to let them know more about God.

God bless!

Kristine
 
Perhaps your situation in the Philippines was different because of a lack of clergy in some localities. North America is far better situated in regard to clergy, even today.
I think you got this wrong. In every streets here in the Philippines you can see churches, and most priests here are used for missionary activities and others.
 
I studied in a Catholic school and transferred to Christian school for some reasons yet i still believe in Catholic faith but i have some friends who are studying in public schools, i think they are cathechized through the cathechizing before their confirmation but it still depends on them if they want to attend a regular cathechism school in some churches but I am trying to let them know more about God.

God bless!

Kristine
What kind of Christian school? How is it different from Catholic School? Are your parents converts to another christian denomination, hence the reason you are transferred to a christian school?
 
Hello,

I humbly offer my experience… I’ve been on “both sides of the fence” with this. I was raised Catholic, and came to know the Lord as a Catholic, yet later I joined with non-Catholic Charismatic groups. I did this partly because there are no Catholic Charismatic groups in my area. Be that as it may, among non-Catholic Christians who are former Catholics, I find the vast majority of these people simply did not know the Lord during their Catholic days. I’ve known many people who were like this… brought up Catholic but didn’t know the Lord for themselves but came to Him via a non-Catholic Christian group or church.

To me, the sheer ignorance of Catholicism of many in such groups is simply astonishing. It’s obvious that many of those who claim Catholics are basically not even Christian just don’t know what the Church believes or teaches.

Personally, I pray for the unity of all Christians. I can understand and accept differences within Christendom, but also strongly believe in ecumenicalism which I furthermore believe is pleasing to our Lord. The followers of Jesus and the knowledge of Him being God is what makes a Christian a Christian, and if we’d all get along better, I believe a significant amount more souls would come to know Him, and know Him sooner.

Blessings,

sp
we actually have the same experience,
 
What kind of Christian school? How is it different from Catholic School? Are your parents converts to another christian denomination, hence the reason you are transferred to a christian school?
In Christian school, I am surrounded by fundamentalists and they teach more on values and not focusing in the lives of saints and etc., they only focus what is written in the bible unlike in Catholic school, it is like you’re studying theology, bible, saints and etc. I transferred in Christian school because of the tuition increase of my former school, our family cannot afford it anymore, that’s why they transferred me in other school that teaches not only the academics but to know God as well.

Blessing,

Kristine
 
I think we’re forgetting another possibility here. We’ve heard about these converts being ignorant, poorly-catechized, taking things personally, etc. Has anyone considered that maybe some of these folks were well-catechized and just didn’t agree with the theology and teachings of the Church? It’s not as if anyone who reads and understands the catechism automatically will agree with it. It’s not always a selfish, nasty, personal agenda that makes people leave Catholicism. Some folks have been taught the catechism very thoroughly and just, for whatever reason, their conscience leads them elsewhere.

And if poor catechesis is the main culprit then the Catholic Church didn’t do its job, the individual members of it, and we have ourselves to blame to some degree.
I already thought of that 'coz I can connect the story of Martin Luther and other priests that made their own church and turned to other religion.
 
I realize that this is an older thread but I missed a lot when I was moving to China, and didn’t respond to a lot of things I would have at that time.
Perhaps your situation in the Philippines was different because of a lack of clergy in some localities. North America is far better situated in regard to clergy, even today.
I cannot speak to the situation in the Phillipines when you were young, except to note that my family supported Catholic missioners (mostly Polish) to the Phillipines for many years. I had always assumed that there was (relatively speaking) a priest shortage in that country compared to many other countries, like the USA. I thought I would do a quick comparison …

These are statistics derived from the Annuario Pontificio released in 2005:

Phillipines
Population (Catholic)69,630,000
Dioceses86
Parishes2,909
Priests7,335

Permanent deacons11
Average laity per diocese: 810,000 Catholics
Average priests per diocese: 85
Average parish per diocese: 34
Average laity per priest: 9,493 Catholic laypersons per priest

U.S.A
Population (Catholic)64,621,000
Dioceses194
Parishes19,081
Priests44,906

Permanent deacons14,362
Average laity per diocese: 333,100 Catholics
Average priests per diocese: 231
Average parish per diocese: 98
Average laity per priest: 1,439 Catholic laypersons per priest
I think it was taken for granted that if you are born catholic the parents will catechize you. There were no programs to catechized children before receiving first communion and before confirmation.
The church for hundreds of years in Europe did a poor job of catechesis. The stress was placed upon the sacraments. Even the catechism of Trent/Pius V was not intended for the use of the laity directly (who often could not read nor afford a copy), it was expected that priests would use it as a reference and communicate whatever was necessary to his flock as the need arose. To be fair, this book was intended as a tool for accurate orthodox preaching and catechesis outside of liturgy.

This is not entirely surprising. For history has shown that although educated laity can and will form opinions contrary to formal church teaching, the divisions in the Body of Christ that proved most damaging and lasting were usually attributed to well educated and ordained Roman Catholic priests. The one significant exception was Calvin, born and educated as a Catholic but trained as a lawyer (he seems to have built his faction upon foundations first laid by a priest, Father Ulrich Zwingli).

Coming from that European legacy I think that the Spanish church worldwide often found itself in situations where there was not sufficient intellectual challenge of Catholic Christian non-conformists, protestants and freethinkers for multiple generations. The effort of the church was usually placed upon refuting non-Christian beliefs in a general way in mission times and on the traditional importance of the sacraments thereafter. The liturgy (Mass) was not sufficiently catechetical to counter-balance this trend. Catechesis was really neglected for repeated generations in many places the Spanish planted the church. Emphasizing the acts of worship and not actually teaching theology to the faithful may have been considered by some a safer approach to handling the laity in areas where competing dogmas were unlikely to be preached because of the law or physical isolation.

I am not saying that this is not as problem for many other churches, but that has to be compensated with something. In Protestant churches good preaching is pretty standard while common Apostolic theology is lacking, and in Orthodox churches the prayers and hymnography are extremely catechetical (when the fullest possible liturgical cycle is played out in the parishes, and the language is in the vernacular).

For an extended period both the preaching and the audible/understandable Lex Orandi were severely lacking in the Latin rite Mass, so the burden had to be on catechesis outside of worship to get and keep lay understandings (which tend to be a bit more complex in Latin Catholicism) straight.

If the local priests could not or would not do this initial catechesis, the burden shifts to others.
I remember when I had my first faith crisis, no one straightened me out, not even my relatives, none of whom had formal catechism except for my two aunts (50’s and early 60’s). I had to inform myself.
 
I am surrounded of catholics turned to other religions… Most especially, Catholics converted to Born Again Christians… Their common reasons are:
- When they are not yet Christians, they tell bad words, do bad things and etc.
- They said that the statues of Mama Mary, Jesus and saints are a kind of idolatry.
- They are always questioning about the chastity of the priests.
- They say that we, the catholics, focus more on saints and not to God.

Maybe, they just didn’t understand these because they are not really focusing. It seems like they are blaming the Catholic religion that’s why they are not closer to God. And most especially, they did not know more on the innermost of being Catholic that’s why they get get carried away by the other religions and they cannot defend their faith… How about you? What are your thoughts about them?
kamusta kababayan?

sadly i see more and more Filipinos turning to other faiths. sometimes i try to figure out if there’s anything wrong with Catholicism in the Philippines, or has the Bishops become to complacent of having such a huge number of Catholics? sure, there tons of churches everywhere, every mass is packed, and Sunday masses run 'round the clock, but how many are actually well Catechized?

even here in Canada where i moved, i find that most Filipinos who i know here are not Catholics. funny, when i was preparing for my son’s baptism, i was talking with my priest about godparents. and of course they must be Catholics. our priest wanted at least one godparent to be here locally, so they may have quick access to my son. i told him, besides the fact that our preference are mine and my wife’s siblings who lives far away, all our other friends and relatives in the area are non-Catholics.

i wonder why many of us are easily pulled away from the faith. the fact that they turn to another faith means they want to be closer to God. but is our Church in the Philippines doing all it can to educate these Catholics about Catholicism?

and to answer your question, i feel sad. they already are in the right place, but somehow they were made not to feel that way. i always hope we can do more, to help Catechize them
 
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