Catholics VS Health Care in America: Morally Embarrassing

[Nate13]

That is an incredibly weak excuse for denying health care in a democratic society to those are too poor to afford it…

So lets set up a fund to help pay for them specifically. We have free clinics all over the place though that can give so so care, and charities that help people out all the time. The only people not getting help in the U.S right now are people who don’t bother to ask. There is no reason to put everyone under the thumb of the law though just to make sure the 10% of Americans who are not happy with their care, get the care they need. Lets setup a fund to help that 10% and put some qualifiers on it to promote people who can work, to get off of government care and find a job.

The problem in Britain is you guys let people get attached to the pacifier and now you get the fun of breaking all of those people off of it now that you are running out of money. Good luck with that.

 

[dmelosi]

That is an incredibly weak excuse for denying health care in a democratic society to those are too poor to afford it…

People are not denied health care, you seem to be ignoring that which has been stated over and over.

The United States Conference of Catholic Bishops disagree with you. As was said this morning in mass, there is no justifying OR helping to support these intrinsic evils. He went so far as to say it is a mortal sin to do so.

Can’t you see that you are sliding down that slippery slope to accepting this mass killing of these human beings?

 

[Nate13]

Thanks, I was assuming the others were to embarrassed say so is the reason they didn’t reply. At least I hope that is the reason they did not.

In my opinion that is the singe biggest reason we do not want this health care plan that was jammed on us. As the deacon in the homily said today, it is a slippery slope.

Exactly. After that point it becomes 20 times harder to make sure we are not financing abortion and contraceptives.

 

[dmelosi]

It’s a slippery slope to the first Christian community in which everyone shared what they had and helped one another…

It is everyone’s responsibility to share and help one another. What you are suggesting is to help those that want abortions to get them.

I have said over and over that we need a better system than we have now to make sure people are covered. Why in the world are you not bothered that abortions in your coverage are included? Have you just been numbed to that fact and accept it now?

 

[LemonAndLime]

I’m proud to be under a government that knows where our rights truly come from and knows its place (although it has its times…).

I have a problem with the ruling philosophy in Europe now. All those things you mentioned came from a Europe before your time and before mine. I don’t want to be like Europe is now. In the past European people used to recognize the importance of religion. I can appreciate a Europe with G.K Chesterton common sense. Europe left his way of thinking somewhere in the dust of rampant secularism though.

I’m confused, are you suggesting that the US is a good Christian nation with no morals, while Europe is in the abyss?

My finger is poised over the Google search button if that is the claim you wish to make.

 

[Nate13]

I’m confused, are you suggesting that the US is a good Christian nation with no morals (?), while Europe is in the abyss?

My finger is poised over the Google search button if that is the claim you wish to make.

No, my point is that we at least have our heads above water still. A good portion of the country still raises its hands in protest when the government tries to require everyone who breathes to buy health insurance.

We also have a birth rate here that is still just at replacement level. I’m not sure it says much when your county is consciously killing itself off by default and in some cases has to provide crazy incentives just to get people to consider having children. Russia is offering salaries to women if they will quit their job and be a stay at home mom. Latvia is also offering crazy incentives to promote women to actually have children.

 

[LemonAndLime]

No, my point is that we at least have our heads above water still. A good portion of the country still raises its hands in protest when the government tries to require everyone who breathes to buy health insurance.

When we were given the NHS we celebrated. And we still do. Our health system is cheaper per person then compared with the US (in terms of tax dollars spent by the government), which is a bit strange.

Neither system is perfect.

As to protesting the government, we do sorta complain when it does something we don’t like. We don’t say “Yes Master”.

 

[dmelosi]

When we were given the NHS we celebrated. And we still do. Our health system is cheaper per person then compared with the US (in terms of tax dollars spent by the government), which is a bit strange.

Neither system is perfect.

As to protesting the government, we do sorta complain when it does something we don’t like. We don’t say “Yes Master”.

I am sure the unborn human beings will thank you for “sorta complaining” because you don’t like that they are being killed.

 

[Nate13]

rhrealitycheck.org/article/2011/10/26/pro-natalism-in-crisis-ridden-eastern-europe-entraps-young-women

In Russia:

Incentives include a dedicated ‘day of copulation’ that releases citizens from work for one afternoon to have sex; an all-expense-paid summer camp for young adults complete with private tents - and no condoms - and cars and cash payments for parents with newborns.

Happy copulation day!
This would be incredibly funny if it was not so sad…

For example, under the Ceaușescu regime from 1966-1989, Romania’s aggressive pro-natalist policies included prohibiting abortions and penalizing women over 25 who did not bear children.

Since 1993, abortions have been banned in Poland under most circumstances. In Lithuania, contraception is becoming more expensive, and individuals must cover these costs themselves.

Can you blame us when we don’t have give a lot of credence to the philosophy that rules in Europe?

 

[JackQ]

Are you twisting or not understanding what I said? This was NOT voted on but forced down everyone’s throat by Obama. It was NOT voted on.

What’s your point? I don’t see anyone here arguing for Obama’s healthcare reform, which doesn’t cover everybody, and requires people to purchase the products of private insurers.

 

[dmelosi]

What’s your point? I don’t see anyone here arguing for Obama’s healthcare reform, which doesn’t cover everybody, and requires people to purchase the products of private insurers.

I suggest you read the post I was responding to.

 

[JackQ]

Political discussions in the United States are all like this. People refuse to agree on a basic set of facts, talk past each other, and dig in to support their positions rather than try to engage in a joint effort to find the best way to deal with problems facing society. You’d think that on a Catholic forum, things would be different. Instead, what happens here is that a different political point of view becomes a ground to impugn the sincerity of someone’s Catholicism. That’s no way to be the light of the world, folks.

Here’s the fact of the matter: if you use Catholicism for political ends, if you try to make the Republican or Democratic parties the Catholic party, you are making the religion subservient to your politics. In my view, that’s just plain wrong.

In saying this, I’m not addressing political operatives who are consciously engaged in appropriating religion to the ends of their parties. If you are not such an operative, however, take care that you are not being duped.

Now it seems to me that there is a Catholic position on healthcare somewhere in all of this. Catholics are against abortion. Catholics are against artificial birth control. Catholics are for getting proper medical care for those who need it, even if they can’t afford it.

It is that last point we’re talking about here. Some are proposing governmental solutions to the problem. Others are opposed to that.

Those who are for governmental solutions need to address concerns about funding abortions.

Those who are not for governmental solutions need to talk about what their solution is, and not pretend that it’s an issue they don’t need to be concerned about.

I sometimes think that politics is the devil’s answer to religion. Look what it’s doing to us! As Catholics we should be of one mind and purpose. Instead we are divided along political party lines. Who thinks St. Paul wouldn’t take us to task for this? I can almost read his epistle in my head now.

 

[JackQ]

I suggest you read the post I was responding to.

The post you were responding to said that abortion wouldn’t be ended through voting. You responded that it wasn’t voted on, but imposed by Obama. I knew you couldn’t be referring to abortion, since Roe -v- Wade is a case from the early '70s. The health care reform law was indeed voted on. So you have to be talking about the latest HHS regulation on birth control, a rule adopted pursuant to the health care reform law.

But I don’t see your point, since the conversation seems to be about what ought to be the nation’s policy on the government providing healthcare, as opposed to Obama’s health care reform law which doesn’t involve the government providing healthcare other than supplementing premiums for those of a certain income, and provides regulations on health insurers and employers and the mandate to buy insurance.

 

[Nate13]

I sometimes think that politics is the devil’s answer to religion. Look what it’s doing to us! As Catholics we should be of one mind and purpose. Instead we are divided along political party lines. Who thinks St. Paul wouldn’t take us to task for this? I can almost read his epistle in my head now.

99% of the time the difference is not a difference of opinion of what the problem is but rather how it should be addressed.

The party lines are mostly a division of “how” with a few exceptions. In America, these two parties represent two different philosophies as to how the World works, how to best get things done, as well as the order of importance of the issues we face in the U.S.

I think your wrong as well in saying we should all be of one mind. I find that I do not have anywhere near the appreciation for animals that others do, while other Catholics are die hard vegetarians and protectors of animals. We can both exist within Catholicism though as long as we recognize that animals are God’s creation that he has put into our care to make use of wisely. We may disagree in what “making use of wisely” means but we can agree on the principle. The two sides also balance each other out and make sure all sides of the debate have a voice.

 

[Nate13]

The post you were responding to said that abortion wouldn’t be ended through voting. You responded that it wasn’t voted on, but imposed by Obama. I knew you couldn’t be referring to abortion, since Roe -v- Wade is a case from the early '70s. The health care reform law was indeed voted on. So you have to be talking about the latest HHS regulation on birth control, a rule adopted pursuant to the health care reform law.

But I don’t see your point, since the conversation seems to be about what ought to be the nation’s policy on the government providing healthcare, as opposed to Obama’s health care reform law which doesn’t involve the government providing healthcare other than supplementing premiums for those of a certain income, and provides regulations on health insurers and employers and the mandate to buy insurance.

Romney was hit on this in the debate last week. He signed into law a government healthcare bill in Massachusetts knowing full well he was in a State that was pro-choice and would move to make sure abortions were paid for under the insurance on the tax payer dime even if the legislation he was signing did not provide for doing that. Sure enough the courts eventually ruled in that State that abortions had to be covered.

Giving more power especially to the extent we are taking about here, to a government that you know will act immorally is immoral in and of itself. Its like handing a murderer a gun and then trying to claim you were just trying to respect that person’s second amendment right to own a firearm… You are equally responsible for the harm that person does with that gun if you give it to them willingly knowing what they will most likely do with it.

 

[MindOverMatter2]

Giving more power especially to the extent we are taking about here, to a government that you know will act immorally is immoral in and of itself. Its like handing a murderer a gun and then trying to claim you were just trying to respect that person’s second amendment right to own a firearm… You are equally responsible for the harm that person does with that gun if you give it to them willingly knowing what they will most likely do with it.

Its a ridiculous excuse. Are you therefore responsible for every illegitimate war that is sponsored by tax payers money? Rubbish. So if a Catholic trades with somebody who supports abortions and even has certain products that are abortion related that therefore you are necessarily sinful for trading with that person? Not if you have no choice but to trade with that person, since your trading does not necessarily imply that you support any of his products or ideologies. You have to trade with that person because such a person is the only one who has access to the product that you need. Its got nothing to do with you that the government chooses to use free health care as an opportunity to give free abortions to people using tax payers money. That does not make it your sin. You are not voting for the government to pay for abortion. You are voting for free health care. Abortion is an issue that has to be fought as a separate issue or not at all, since it is going to exist regardless of whether or not there is free or private health care. The money you pay private organizations for your health is possibly being used to fund abortions. The bottom line is that abortions is determined as lawful on grounds that has nothing to do with public votes. The fact that the government chooses to use that money for sinful ends is irrelevant. Its quite possible that your tax money is being use for evil as we speak, but that does not mean that you are responsible and it does not serve as a justification to reject free health care.

In fact i think you are using abortion to make it appear as if your rejection of free health-care is moral. But it is not.

 

[MindOverMatter2]

Okay, lets say that all cloths shops in the world as a matter of solidarity gave a chunk of the profits they make from customers to fund abortions; would we be immoral to buy cloths from these organizations? I would argue “no”. Because the nature of society and practical need dictates that we have to rely on these people for cloths. Need absolves us from responsibility even though we know what they are going to do with the money.

We know that if America ever gets free-health care, the government is going to fund abortion through some of the tax they receive to fund the national health service. But regardless, Americans need free health-care.

Free health care is being held hostage on the moral grounds that people don’t want to fund abortion. But the reality is, it is not free health care that is going to make abortion worse or legal, its the human beings who want abortions that are making it worse. The issue of abortion has to be fought as a separate issue. I really don’t see how you are truly making a moral difference by rejecting a free-health service. In fact, instead of having just the evil of abortion in society, we also have the evil of people not having free-health-care; making America a doubly backwards nation. You are not making things better; in fact you are making it worse.

Instead of evangelizing America, you are wasting time trying to make change by denying people a moral good, and therefore bringing unnecessary resentment toward the Christian faith.

 

[tonyrey]

It is everyone’s responsibility to share and help one another.

But they don’t!

What you are suggesting is to help those that want abortions to get them.

In a democratic society it is unrealistic to think you can stop people having abortions if they believe they are necessary. Where it is illegal they have dangerous backstreet abortions or - if they can afford it (which many can’t) they travel abroad. The days of ramming your beliefs down people’ s throats are over…

I have said over and over that we need a better system than we have now to make sure people are covered.

Actions speak far louder than words.

Why in the world are you not bothered that abortions in your coverage are included? Have you just been numbed to that fact and accept it now?

I accept the fact that the days of the Inquisition are gone forever - except in autocratic societies like Iran, Saudi Arabia and China where men and women are tortured and executed for doing what they are convinced is right…

 

[Happy3Mom]

But they don’t!

I accept the fact that the days of the Inquisition are gone forever - except in autocratic societies like Iran, Saudi Arabia and China where men and women are tortured and executed for doing what they are convinced is right…

So you accept the fact that innocent babies are tortured and killed because their parents and our society has decided it is right to do so?

And for all of you discussing the issue, please refrain from using the term “free health care”. There is no such thing as free health care and I would know this even if I had not worked for hospitals for 30 years.

It is a bit like saying you cannot legislate morality. All law is based on morality. All law is a codification of a society’s moral values. We might argue about the source of our moral values or the justification for our morality, but the laws we pass and the laws we obey are our nations’s moral code.

 

[Nate13]

Its a ridiculous excuse. Are you therefore responsible for every illegitimate war that is sponsored by tax payers money? Rubbish.

If I voted for a candidate that I was almost positive would go off and start and unjust war I would be wrong in doing so, unless voting for him/her was based on preventing an even greater evil.

So if a Catholic trades with somebody who supports abortions and even has certain products that are abortion related that therefore you are necessarily sinful for trading with that person? Not if you have no choice but to trade with that person, since your trading does not necessarily imply that you support any of his products or ideologies. You have to trade with that person because such a person is the only one who has access to the product that you need.

Uh we don’t have a choice but to hand over all power to the government to run 1/6th of our economy and run a nation wide government health care plan? There are lots of other ways of addressing the problem that don’t involve kicking the can down the road of tyranny. You bring up a good point though in that passing this law will knowingly make the government the one stop shop of healthcare for 99% of the population. Abortions are still legal here and it is very likely someone will sue after the law is in place and get their abortions covered even though our President has pledged that will not happen (yeah…sure). I cannot in good conscience give my government that kind of power with that outcome is the imperative.

Its got nothing to do with you that the government chooses to use free health care as an opportunity to give free abortions to people using tax payers money. That does not make it your sin.

Yes it makes it a sin to support putting it in place in the beginning. Once it has already been thrust on you and you have no choice in the matter, you are right it is then not a sin to use that health insurance because you have no other choice. Someone earlier was saying Britains cheered when the law was passed and you guys got your nationwide healthcare. That doesn’t sound to me like a people all that worried about the obvious consequences of their actions. Maybe abortions and contraceptives being covered was not such an imperative at that time? I’ll give you guys the benefit of the doubt…

You are not voting for the government to pay for abortion. You are voting for free health care. Abortion is an issue that has to be fought as a separate issue or not at all, since it is going to exist regardless of whether or not there is free or private health care.

No, abortion is being fought right now. You cannot separate it. Would you push the button to destroy a bridge if a child was still on it? Would you say oh I’m just pushing the button to destroy the bridge, I’m not killing a child? I understand we do not have control of everything that happens and cannot forsee every evil, but when we can forsee evil coming from our actions we should stop. If you didn’t know the child was on the bridge when you pushed the button that is one thing, but when you know the child is on that bridge how can you push that button?

The money you pay private organizations for your health is possibly being used to fund abortions. The bottom line is that abortions is determined as lawful on grounds that has nothing to do with public votes. The fact that the government chooses to use that money for sinful ends is irrelevant. Its quite possible that your tax money is being use for evil as we speak, but that does not mean that you are responsible and it does not serve as a justification to reject free health care.

Sigh, but when it is clear that it will be used for evil you should work to stop it. There are other alternatives to a nationwide government healthcare program and I’ve already mentioned it multiple times. I refuse to be spoon fed something that gives too much power to the government, is too expensive, and will for sure result in allowing more abortions, more morning after pills to be taken, and more contraceptives to be stuffed down our throat.

How can I consciously give more power to a government that I know will act immorally, and make it even harder for me to work to change its policies?

In fact i think you are using abortion to make it appear as if your rejection of free health-care is moral. But it is not.

Free health-care only covers natural death And I’ve already stated multiple times what I would do to address the needs of the poor in terms of government assistance. You can continue to demonize me though if it makes you feel better.