Catholics vs Mormons vs Protestants on the "Gates of Hell"

[RebeccaJ]

Answered it.

Don’t think so.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Nah, we would disagree. With the keys to the church goes the keys to the WORK of the church which includes work for the dead

Christ said keys to the Kingdom of Heaven. With those keys came the authority to bind and loose on earth, with a promise it would be bound and loosed in heaven.

**Mat 16:19 And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven. **

Later, Christ spoke of the Church. He said for men to take their disputes to the Church…then He repeated, again, “whatsoever you shall bind on earth, shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever you shall loose upon the earth, shall be loosed also in heaven”.

**Mat 18:15 But if thy brother shall offend against thee, go, and rebuke him between thee and him alone. If he shall hear thee, thou shalt gain thy brother.
Mat 18:16 And if he will not hear thee, take with thee one or two more: that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may stand.
Mat 18:17 And if he will not hear them: tell the church. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican.
Mat 18:18 Amen I say to you, whatsoever you shall bind upon earth, shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever you shall loose upon earth, shall be loosed also in heaven. **

Seems Christ knew in advance, that His Church would be around for ALL days, even unto the consummation of the world.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Nah, we would disagree. With the keys to the church goes the keys to the WORK of the church which includes work for the dead

Which is not apostolic.

Peter was instructed to care for Jesus’ flock, the living Church. He said nothing about work for the dead.

Praying for those in purgatory is praying for Christ’s mercy. We are not praying for their conversion. Those in purgatory are already headed for heaven, as the damned have no need of purification.

Praying for the dead, in general, is again praying that Christ will have mercy in His judgment.

 

[Jerusha]

On the following day, since the task had now become urgent, Judas and his men went to gather up the bodies of the slain and bury them with their kinsmen in their ancestral tombs .But under the tunic of each of the dead they found amulets sacred to the idols of Jamnia, which the law forbids the Jews to wear. So it was clear to all that this was why these men had been slain. They all therefore praised the ways of the Lord, the just judge who brings to light the things that are hidden. Turning to supplication, they prayed that the sinful deed might be fully blotted out. The noble Judas warned the soldiers to keep themselves free from sin, for they had seen with their own eyes what had happened because of the sin of those who had fallen. He then took up a collection among all his soldiers, amounting to two thousand silver drachmas, which he sent to Jerusalem to provide for an expiatory sacrifice. In doing this he acted in a very excellent and noble way, inasmuch as he had the resurrection of the dead in view; for if he were not expecting the fallen to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death.But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin. (2 Mac. 12:39-46).

The foundation for prayer for the dead. Varies somewhat from the Catholic teaching, but less so than the LDS teaching.

 

[RebeccaJ]

We would say that the evidence is clear that it was lost. Now it becomes a historical question, and then it becomes a question of who’s history you believe, which is beyond the scope of this thread, since it hasn’t been resolved at least since the reformation.

So if all the Catholic and Protestant historians battling over it have not figured it out, I think perhaps I would be beyond my depth.

HIstory, while important, is not the entire evidence.

 

[ralphinal]

But doesn’t your church believe in intercession for those in purgatory? That you can pray for them? I am trying to give you a break here because:

If it doesn’t apply to your church at all, then that strengthens the Mormon position totally, because that is what our church believes. Our church does work to help redeem the dead.

So in that case, with this interpretation, that verse would actually PROVE the apostasy. The true church is supposed to crack open the gates of hades, which do not prevail against it.

If the church which does this is not the Catholic church, it is the Mormon church, therefore the Mormon church is the true church.

Purgatory, as it is properly understood and taught by the Church, applies to those who are not damned but are not in a perfect state for heaven. If no one ever prays for you, and you are in purgatory, you still get out at some point, when you are ready.

If no one did anything in the Mormon faith for a dead person, what is their status?

If you hold that this means that everyone in hell can get to heaven, you are WAY WAY off base biblically.

 

[mfbukowski]

I see, this is your mormon missionary thread.

I haven’t been a mormon for 20+ years bukowski, and I left as a young adult. It was a different church then.

Well I have been an adult member with a philosophical bent for 30 years and I was always taught that. Perhaps as a young adult it didn’t quite make an impression. The restoration of the priesthood makes no sense if Peter was sent to restore the keys which he never had.

Not a missionary thread at all. I will assume that you have no further arguments against my position.

I wish we could have had some protestant participation.

 

[mfbukowski]

Purgatory, as it is properly understood and taught by the Church, applies to those who are not damned but are not in a perfect state for heaven. If no one ever prays for you, and you are in purgatory, you still get out at some point, when you are ready.

If no one did anything in the Mormon faith for a dead person, what is their status?

If you hold that this means that everyone in hell can get to heaven, you are WAY WAY off base biblically.

No, what the scripture actually says is “hades” which technically is the underworld or the world of the dead. Theologically for Mormons this is known as the spirit world, and this portion of it would be called “spirit prison” which is far more biblical than purgatory. Remember preaching to the spirits in prison from Noah’s time?

What would be the status of someone if no one did their work?

Assuming no one did it and they WANTED to have it done (two different things- they get the option to be a “Mormon” or not) they would have the opportunity to come back presumably during the millenium in spirit form, which will be commonplace we are told during the millenium, and tell us.

In my opinion, work for the dead is as much a help for us as for them. It is a welding link with our heritage and the opportunity to do selfless service for those who cannot do for themselves. We also have the opportunity to learn ordinaces in the temple, the understanding of which can be vital to our own understanding of the gospel.

 

[ralphinal]

No, what the scripture actually says is “hades” which technically is the underworld or the world of the dead. Theologically for Mormons this is known as the spirit world, and this portion of it would be called “spirit prison” which is far more biblical than purgatory. Remember preaching to the spirits in prison from Noah’s time?

Actually, Purgatory is not specifically in the Bible. It was a part of the Jewish faith in the Oral part (Talmud). It was a well known part that those who accepted the Resurection on the last day accepted. It is different than the limbo of the fathers (spirit prison), which is where those who died before Christ opened the kingdom BUT were worthy of it waited until his triumph

What would be the status of someone if no one did their work?

Assuming no one did it and they WANTED to have it done (two different things- they get the option to be a “Mormon” or not) they would have the opportunity to come back presumably during the millenium in spirit form, which will be commonplace we are told during the millenium, and tell us.

Ok. Help me with this. Are they like ghosts? If no one listens to them, are they damned? This is a new one on me.

In my opinion, work for the dead is as much a help for us as for them. It is a welding link with our heritage and the opportunity to do selfless service for those who cannot do for themselves. We also have the opportunity to learn ordinaces in the temple, the understanding of which can be vital to our own understanding of the gospel.

I actually agree with this in theory. We are just as united to those who have passed away as those who are with us now. We know, from both Jesus and Paul, that those who are dead are not dead but alive in Christ. Why should we not still be united to them?

 

[RebeccaJ]

Well I have been an adult member with a philosophical bent for 30 years and I was always taught that. Perhaps as a young adult it didn’t quite make an impression. The restoration of the priesthood makes no sense if Peter was sent to restore the keys which he never had.

Probably. I have a horrible memory.

Peter never held the keys to the kingdom of the dead. You are claiming something was restored that was never there to begin with.

Not a missionary thread at all. I will assume that you have no further arguments against my position.

I wish we could have had some protestant participation.

You never answered what I asked. That is why I said you are going off into missionary-land.

Why do you believe it has to be one or the other? Clearly, when speaking of death we can speak of the kingdom of heaven, or everlasting damnation.

I can see that Christ could have been speaking of both, I have no problem with this. Especially since it is Catholic teaching that when Jesus descended into hell it was to open the gates and redeem the souls of the dead.

But so too, you cannot ignore that the gate swings both ways, in and out. You can’t ignore Jesus’ references to death as sin, being slaves to sin, and the world being ruled by Satan…and His work to redeem the world. This cannot prevail against His Church, as His Church is Himself. To a Catholic, if you say Christ’s Church has failed, you are saying Jesus has failed. It is an unacceptable proposition.

My understanding is that Protestants (of the Reformation, I couldn’t begin to tell you what the other thousands of denominations believe) believe that the keys are the sacraments, such as baptism. And that these are the weapons against the gates of hell, which cannot prevail against those who have been baptized. The rock they view as Christ’s salvation.

That is my understanding…but yes, it would be nice to hear from a Protestant.

 

[mfbukowski]

Ok. Help me with this. Are they like ghosts? If no one listens to them, are they damned? This is a new one on me.

I actually agree with this in theory. We are just as united to those who have passed away as those who are with us now. We know, from both Jesus and Paul, that those who are dead are not dead but alive in Christ. Why should we not still be united to them?

Last question first. Exactly. We are united to them as we are to eachother. We believe that when you die, you enter the spirit world as disembodied spirits. So in a sense, they are like ghosts without all the halloween connotations. They have spirit bodies, and if we were allowed to see one, we might not know they were spirits.

The spirit world (biblically known as “hades”) has two divisions - prison and paradise. The division used ot be a “great gulf” between God and “Abraham’s Bosom”, but after Jesus went to the spirit world, that division was unified, so that the division is no longer hard and fast, nor is it “spatial” in the sense that over here are the good guys and over there are the bad guys. There is interaction there as there is here. (I need to say this is my personal well informed understanding of all this, but I don’t think this is well defined dogma) We know that “missionary work” goes on like here. So if you think you’re going to get away from those pesky Mormon missionaries by dying, fergetaboutit And both they and you will be better informed on the other side!

So those in paradise are happy and blessed and feel the spirit and are continually in communion with God. They are doing the Lord’s work which we only partially understand. Those in prison - also called hell-- are confused, addicted, conflicted and tormented, mostly by their own sins and the craziness they cause-- generally like those folks are here, but worse. One reason we avoid addictions is that we might have them on the other side. Imagine needing cigarettes that you can never get and smoke. No, I’m not saying you go to hell if you smoke. Just that you will have to deal with it sooner or later. I understand coffee is also a little scarce in the spirit world

As those in prison hear the gospel, they might be let’s say converted totally, converted partially or not converted at all. (To make things simple)

Those who are totally converted will move into a state of “paradise”, just as if one found the truth here and changed their lives and entered the happiness of total communion with God.

Those who only partially “get it” will only get a portion of that sense of communion.

And those who want to keep hanging out and partying,(so to speak!) who never get it, continue doing just that. If communion with God is not important to you, it’s not important. I think the atheists will have their own little dark corner, trying to deny with all their might.

At some point will be the millenium, while Jesus is reigning personally on the earth, where the veil is thin and spirits come and go, and earth life is very different than it is now. Those who are converted will be able to visit those alive and have their ordinance work done for them. No one will be “forgotten” who does not want to be.

After this period comes the resurrection, in which each of us gets what we deserve – one of the states of glory, of which there are three general divisions. The first is celestial, terestrial and telestial-- just as Paul talks about in 1 Corintians 15. Those who are highest in the celestial kingdom will go on to exaltation – to become as God is. These are also called “the elect”.

And there are I think dozens of different “levels” within the three major divisions. Everyone will get exactly what will make them happiest. If you don’t want to be like God, you don’t have to be. You can sit around and enjoy the “beatific vision” and play your harp and sing. (all this is figurative I hope you realize)

In order to qualify for the lowest level - outer darkness, you have to commit the sin of denial of the holy ghost – this is reserved for those who knowingly deny God. This is also called hell – so the term can refer to outer darkness or spirit prison. This state is devoid of any of God’s love and we know very little about it really- but this is where Satan and his cronies and those of us who deserve it will hang out for eternity. You definitely do not want to be here.

Most biblical references to hell refer to this level, but some, as in the “gates of hell” passage really refer to hades or the spirit world, primarily spirit prison.

Hope that clarifies it a bit.

 

[mfbukowski]

Peter never held the keys to the kingdom of the dead. You are claiming something was restored that was never there to begin with.

I don’t know why you think this.

So you think your church does NOT have the power to preach to the dead, or what exactly are you saying? Why would he not have the keys?

I believe he did and the priesthood does have the keys.

MAYBE THIS HAS BEEN THE ISSUE ALL ALONG??

But that is my earlier point- to me that would prove the apostasy since I think that Jesus is making that statement - that the church has the keys to the gates of hell, so they cannot prevail against it.

No keys to hell, No true church.

Even from your point of view, how could the church withstand an attack from hell if you did not have the keys to do so?

 

[RebeccaJ]

I don’t know why you think this.

So you think your church does NOT have the power to preach to the dead, or what exactly are you saying? Why would he not have the keys?

I believe he did and the priesthood does have the keys.

MAYBE THIS HAS BEEN THE ISSUE ALL ALONG??

But that is my earlier point- to me that would prove the apostasy since I think that Jesus is making that statement - that the church has the keys to the gates of hell, so they cannot prevail against it.

No keys to hell, No true church.

Even from your point of view, how could the church withstand an attack from hell if you did not have the keys to do so?

You are making stuff up. Mormon belief of a world where the souls of the dead hang around waiting for mormon missionaries to teach them mormonism is nowhere in any teaching.

To say the Catholic Church has failed because of this makes no sense.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Even from your point of view, how could the church withstand an attack from hell if you did not have the keys to do so?

Christ defeated Satan. He is condemned.

Death and sin cannot defeat Christ’s Church as Christ has defeated both, forever, and always. To believe otherwise is to believe that Jesus did not die, that He has not risen, and that He will not come again.

The Church is led by Christ. He is our eternal High Priest. Our King. We, and you, by virtue of our baptisms are the body of the Church. Just as death and sin cannot defeat us, so to does the Church withstand both.

We, individually, seek to follow Jesus. By His sacrifice and grace we are free from the bonds of sin and death. The Church is Christ and we are the Church and so we are His. We are one. You cannot say we are defeated. Even if we choose sin and wander, we belong to God, and God forgives us. Even if the Church itself wanders, it belongs to God, and God guides His Church and leads her to where she should be.

What you are proposing is that none of this is Truth.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

So those in paradise are happy and blessed and feel the spirit and are continually in communion with God. They are doing the Lord’s work which we only partially understand. Those in prison - also called hell-- are confused, addicted, conflicted and tormented, mostly by their own sins and the craziness they cause-- generally like those folks are here, but worse. One reason we avoid addictions is that we might have them on the other side. Imagine needing cigarettes that you can never get and smoke. No, I’m not saying you go to hell if you smoke. Just that you will have to deal with it sooner or later. I understand coffee is also a little scarce in the spirit world

As those in prison hear the gospel, they might be let’s say converted totally, converted partially or not converted at all. (To make things simple)

Those who are totally converted will move into a state of “paradise”, just as if one found the truth here and changed their lives and entered the happiness of total communion with God.

Those who only partially “get it” will only get a portion of that sense of communion.

And those who want to keep hanging out and partying,(so to speak!) who never get it, continue doing just that. If communion with God is not important to you, it’s not important. I think the atheists will have their own little dark corner, trying to deny with all their might.

At some point will be the millenium, while Jesus is reigning personally on the earth, where the veil is thin and spirits come and go, and earth life is very different than it is now. Those who are converted will be able to visit those alive and have their ordinance work done for them. No one will be “forgotten” who does not want to be.

After this period comes the resurrection, in which each of us gets what we deserve – one of the states of glory, of which there are three general divisions. The first is celestial, terestrial and telestial-- just as Paul talks about in 1 Corintians 15. Those who are highest in the celestial kingdom will go on to exaltation – to become as God is. These are also called “the elect”.

And there are I think dozens of different “levels” within the three major divisions. Everyone will get exactly what will make them happiest. If you don’t want to be like God, you don’t have to be. You can sit around and enjoy the “beatific vision” and play your harp and sing. (all this is figurative I hope you realize)

In order to qualify for the lowest level - outer darkness, you have to commit the sin of denial of the holy ghost – this is reserved for those who knowingly deny God. This is also called hell – so the term can refer to outer darkness or spirit prison. This state is devoid of any of God’s love and we know very little about it really- but this is where Satan and his cronies and those of us who deserve it will hang out for eternity. You definitely do not want to be here.

Hope that clarifies it a bit.

It’s hilarious! I like the part about the bad habits. But how about murderers and child molesters? I hope you aren’t going to baptise them! How do you know if you are baptising the wrong sort of person?

 

[mfbukowski]

You are making stuff up. Mormon belief of a world where the souls of the dead hang around waiting for mormon missionaries to teach them mormonism is nowhere in any teaching.

To say the Catholic Church has failed because of this makes no sense.

I’m afraid you don’t know Mormon theology at all.

Spencer W Kimball

"The more clearly we see eternity, the more obvious it becomes that the Lord’s work in which we are engaged is one vast and grand work with striking similarities on each side of the veil of death.

We have great works to perform on this earth, and I suppose the whole program of the Church could be put in one of three categories: missionary work, temple work, and keeping Church members active and faithful. It is hard to over-emphasize the value and importance of any one of these activities. Our great and growing missionary program among mortals is the most extensive it has ever been in this dispensation as we are preaching, teaching, and baptizing tens of thousands of our fellowmen. However, missionary work is not limited to proclaiming the gospel to every nation, kindred, tongue, and people now living on the earth. Missionary work is also continuing beyond the veil among the millions and even billions of the children of our Heavenly Father who have died either without hearing the gospel or without accepting it while they lived on the earth. Our great part in this aspect of missionary work is to perform on this earth the ordinances required for those who accept the gospel over there. The spirit world is full of spirits who are anxiously awaiting for us to perform these earthly ordinances for them. I hope to see us dissolve the artificial boundary line we so often place in our minds between missionary work and temple and genealogical work because it is the same great redemptive work! "

lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=f318118dd536c010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&locale=0&sourceId=fbf3ca99be2ab010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&hideNav=1

"For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison …

For this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit."

(1 Pet. 3:18, 19; 1 Pet. 4:6.)

And so the gates of hades DO NOT PREVAIL against his church. The work goes on.

 

[mfbukowski]

It’s hilarious! I like the part about the bad habits. But how about murderers and child molesters? I hope you aren’t going to baptise them! How do you know if you are baptising the wrong sort of person?

Give me a break. It’s all conditional. And they have to accept it.

You want to hear hilarious?

2000 years with every single pope in perfect succession. Now that’s hilarious. Even the women and the disputed ones? Avignon and all that? Come on.

And every priest still has the priesthood even if he is in one of the categories YOU mentioned? And he gives you absolution? Good luck.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

Give me a break. It’s all conditional. And they have to accept it.

You want to hear hilarious?

2000 years with every single pope in perfect succession. Now that’s hilarious. Even the women and the disputed ones? Avignon and all that? Come on.

And every priest still has the priesthood even if he is in one of the categories YOU mentioned? And he gives you absolution? Good luck.

You’re right about that. There have been some nasty popes and priests. (probably some nasty Mormon prophets too!)

But what do you mean it’s all conditional? Conditional how?

 

[RebeccaJ]

I’m afraid you don’t know Mormon theology at all.

However, missionary work is not limited to proclaiming the gospel to every nation, kindred, tongue, and people now living on the earth. Missionary work is also continuing beyond the veil among the millions and even billions of the children of our Heavenly Father who have died either without hearing the gospel or without accepting it while they lived on the earth. Our great part in this aspect of missionary work is to perform on this earth the ordinances required for those who accept the gospel over there. The spirit world is full of spirits who are anxiously awaiting for us to perform these earthly ordinances for them. I hope to see us dissolve the artificial boundary line we so often place in our minds between missionary work and temple and genealogical work because it is the same great redemptive work! "

.

Well let me rephrase that, Joseph Smith made stuff up. I know this is mormon theology, it is made up. It is not taught anywhere else but your mormon church. It was not taught by the Apostles. It was not taught in the early Church. It has never been taught, EVER. Until Joseph Smith came along.

It is not a restoration, it is an invention.

and how about your not take scripture verses out of context?

18 For Christ also suffered 5 for sins once, the righteous for the sake of the unrighteous, that he might lead you to God. Put to death in the flesh, he was brought to life in the spirit. 19 In it he also went to preach to the spirits in prison, 6 20 who had once been disobedient while God patiently waited in the days of Noah during the building of the ark, in which a few persons, eight in all, were saved through water. 21 This prefigured baptism, which saves you now. It is not a removal of dirt from the body but an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers subject to him.

Peter was talking about a very select group of people, those who were not saved by the Old Covenant. It says NOTHING about proxy baptisms. And no where does Jesus or an Apostle teach that baptisms for the dead SHOULD be performed. Let alone that it is necessary.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Give me a break. It’s all conditional. And they have to accept it.

You want to hear hilarious?

2000 years with every single pope in perfect succession. Now that’s hilarious. Even the women and the disputed ones? Avignon and all that? Come on.

And every priest still has the priesthood even if he is in one of the categories YOU mentioned? And he gives you absolution? Good luck.

It is not the priest giving absolution, it is Jesus Christ.