Catholics vs Mormons vs Protestants on the "Gates of Hell"

[Gabriel_of_12]

Gabriel of 12;4436421:

Today, this scripture is fufilled before you.

Tell me, do mormons or the LDS church still deal in geneologies?

Paul has a word for you:

1 Tim.1: 3 I repeat the request I made of you when I was on my way to Macedonia, that you stay in Ephesus to instruct certain people not to teach false doctrines
4 or to concern themselves with myths and endless genealogies, which promote speculations rather than the plan of God that is to be received by faith. 5 The aim of this instruction is love from a pure heart, a good conscience, and a sincere faith.
6 Some people have deviated from these and turned to meaningless talk, 7 wanting to be teachers of the law, but without understanding either what they are saying or what they assert
with such assurance.

Is it true Momonism got another gospel from an angel? listen to Paul again;

Galatians 1: 6** I am amazed that you are so quickly forsaking the one who called you by (the) grace (of Christ) for a different gospel
7 (not that there is another). But there are some who are disturbing you and wish to pervert the gospel of Christ.
8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach (to you) a gospel other than the one that we preached to you, let that one be accursed!**

So according to Mormon belief’s, scripture calls your church accursed for bringing another gospel, and if your still into geneologies, then you possess a false doctrine. I dont understand why your arguing 2000 years of Catholicism, when scripture directlly refutes your new gospel belief’s.

Peace

 

[paul_c]

Bukowski,
The rub of it is, when you declare that the existing faith, which is undoubtedly Catholicism, has fallen into apostacy, the burden is on you to demonstrate that. I just put up a 10000 character post in two parts, discussing why your apologist was incorrect. We have shown continuity of the faith to you and also shown why your views are inconsistent with the teachings of Jesus Christ. There really isn’t any more point to the discussion so I will now disengage as well…

Thanks for sharing your views… I hope that you will come to the light…

 

[mfbukowski]

8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach (to you) a gospel other than the one that we preached to you, let that one be accursed!

**Revelation 14
6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
**

And who might this be?

Not to impune your ancestry, but MY genealogy is not mythical, nor speculative

(yawn)

 

[mfbukowski]

Bukowski,

Thanks for sharing your views… I hope that you will come to the light…

Thanks you also, and I wish you the same.

 

[Snow]

Gabriel of 12,
Good post.

BDawg, Snow, Bukowski,

How do you answer all those new testament passages expressly warning you that new doctrines such as those proposed by Joseph Smith are not from God?

There’s nothing to address. Gabriel’s post means nothing. He just posted a bunch of scriptural warnings and YOU said they apply to LDS doctrine.

Yawn.

One could just as easily say that they apply to Catholics or Methodists or Lutherans or Evangelicals and then challenge the Catholic, or whoever, to “answer all those new testament passages expressly warning you that new doctrines such as those proposed by [RCC] are not from God?”

Big deal.

 

[Snow]

i was unaware that you did anything else.
first of all it’s easy to cherry pick who says what you want and then quote mine his works. but let’s look at this specific quote. he never tells us that any of these writings say that God had a body merely that they don’t deny it.
not a big neusner fan but once again he doesn’t give us a specific example to make your case. he merely sets up the case for the catholic position on Jesus
wow he’s as much an academic icon as george bush (educated at yale and harvard) allow me to express my contempt for the so called academia of the present age who shamelessly promote their own agendas for fun and profit. shall we talk about the extensive resumes of the berkley secular humanists? here is a link to those jews who disagree with his “findings”:

jstor.org/pss/1455217

If you want to refute them, go ahead. I’ll wait.

 

[Snow]

continued

great. they “pictured” him in a way they could understand. this does nothing to show that he actually had a body. just a little more quote mining.
so you start by admitting a lack of evidence and then try to “extrapolate” that orthodox trinitarianism proves your assertion? this isn’t math at all. it demonstrates the catholic position on jesus. (once again)
how he was 'pictured" has no weight on this at all.
only from a mormon point of view. there was no great apostasy so this cannot be correct.

and yet there was no single voice of judaism on this (or any other subject) at that time. Origen here tells us thaat his studies show quite the opposite of what you assert.

Ditto

 

[Snow]

How can you possibly claim that? There are many clear doctrinal differences between the Mormons and the Gospel. Several of those are noted in the previous pages.

Different than YOUR opinion about the Gospels.

We, however, are uninterested (aside from these debates) about your opinions, just interested in the Gospels themselves.

 

[Snow]

So according to Mormon belief’s, scripture calls your church accursed for bringing another gospel, and if your still into geneologies, then you possess a false doctrine. I dont understand why your arguing 2000 years of Catholicism, when scripture directlly refutes your new gospel belief’s.

Peace

No - now, Gabriel, dishonesty is such an immature and unsavory trait… it not even a Christian thing to do.

The scripture says nothing about “my} church.” You simply wish it to be my church. Wishing don’t make it so.

Please be honest in your posts from now on. Honesty good. Dishonesty bad.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

**Revelation 14
6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
**

And who might this be?

Not to impune your ancestry, but MY genealogy is not mythical, nor speculative

(yawn)

I never said “your” genealogy, Paul is talking about your faith based myths of seer stones, golden plates etc, and your endless genealogies which promote speculation deriving from your mythical belief’s in the lost tribes of Israel which have already been proven to be false tales only, buy nuetral scientific sources.
here is Paul again in case you missed it:

to instruct certain people not to teach false doctrines
4 **or to concern themselves with myths and endless genealogies, which promote speculations **rather than the plan of God that is to be received by faith. 5 The aim of this instruction is love from a pure heart, a good conscience, and a sincere faith.

Now do you really want this Catholic to discuss Revelations 6? I can tell you this much it is not the angel Joseph Smith saw, because this angel in revelations does not possess a new Gospel of Jesus.

I will tell you a mystery to help unlock a key to Revelations 6. What you read is a Liturgical act happening in Johns vision in heaven, pertaining to the Liturgical worship on earth. Remember the Liturgical prayer Jesus gave us. Our Father who art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name, “THY KINGDOM COME THY WILL BE DONE ON EARTH AS IT IS IN HEAVEN”. Now reread Rev.6 you should begin to see heaven and earth being one.

If you want first century interpretation of Revelations, and its Heavenly Liturgies action that pertains to the past, present, and future. Learn it from the One Holy Catholic Apostolic church you cant go wrong. If you seek eternal enlightenment, study Revelations from the guys who wrote it, and teach it in the Catholic church.

Peace be with you.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

No - now, Gabriel, dishonesty is such an immature and unsavory trait… it not even a Christian thing to do.

The scripture says nothing about “[my} church.” You simply wish it to be my church. Wishing don’t make it so.

Please be honest in your posts from now on. Honesty good. Dishonesty bad.

Laugh! your funny. You know Snow as I have come to Love God in my Catholic belief’s. Everything I believe as a Catholic I measure it up to scripture then to apostolic teachings. I have yet to find anything in sacred scripture that conflicts with the True teachings of my Catholic faith, and this includes the Old testament also. But one has to enter the mysteries of God in spirtual realities to see the new testament hidden in the old testament and the Old testament revealed in the New testament.

Could I offer you the same courteousy, measure up everything you believe as a mormon to the scriptures and see if your new 18th-20th century beliefs measure up to scriptural standards.

Now that is being honest with oneself, and others if you can measure your belief’s to God’s Holy Word without inventing another gospel of Jesus Christ to fit your theological belief’s.

Peace be with you.
[/quote]

 

[mfbukowski]

Could I offer you the same courteousy, measure up everything you believe as a mormon to the scriptures and see if your new 18th-20th century beliefs measure up to scriptural standards.

Yep. They do. How about purgatory? How come a thief got to go to heaven without it just because he was crucified with Jesus?

Always wondered about that one. How come we have to suffer for our sins in purgatory when Christ already did it for us? I guess the atonement only took partially.

Just a couple in a minute or less.

 

[paul_c]

Bukowski,
How does Joseph’s Smith’s revelation that he should take the wives of 10 of his followers follow the scriptures. I think you will recognize that the 6th commandment is " Thou shall not commit adultery" and that there is no way to parse this to make Joseph Smith’s actions anything but adultery. Do you really think that God would tell his prophet that the 10 commandments are null and void?

As for purgatory, we have to be purified for our sins before we are ready for heaven. We believe that each person has personal responsibility for their actions. Don’t you?

As for the “good Thief”, he asked forgiveness and showed his faith in Jesus at the time of his death. The pennance of Crucifixion might have been enough to purify his soul…

 

[majick275]

Yep. They do. How about purgatory? How come a thief got to go to heaven without it just because he was crucified with Jesus?

Always wondered about that one. How come we have to suffer for our sins in purgatory when Christ already did it for us? I guess the atonement only took partially.

Just a couple in a minute or less.

if you actually studied LDS history and doctrine you would see that purgatory is very similar to LDs teachings. since no unclean thing can enter into the presence of God you have to be “purged” of your impurities. spirit prison? or how about D&C 132 or we cold into BY’ teachings about paying the penalty for your sins even though jesus “atoned” for them.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Yep. They do. How about purgatory? How come a thief got to go to heaven without it just because he was crucified with Jesus?

Always wondered about that one. How come we have to suffer for our sins in purgatory when Christ already did it for us? I guess the atonement only took partially.

Just a couple in a minute or less.

Gabriel of 12
Your kidding? Which kind of Mormon are you? Mormons believe in a “Purgatory”.

Tell you what, it may confuse many here; You explain Mormons “Spirit prison” from sacred scripture. And I will show you Purgatory belief from the ancient Hebrews, first century Jews, and first century Christians using both old and new testaments from an ancient Catholic teaching of Purgatory. And while your add it, to grasp this ancient teaching of Purgatory understanding it might be wise to explain your interpretation of deadly sin and venial sin mentioned in the scriptures.

As far as the good thief whose name is “Dimas” the other thief’s name was “Gestas” who were crucified with Jesus. Dimas confessed his sin and made reparation for his sin by his suffering and crucifixion, no purging of the soul needed, while at the same time professed his faith in Jesus and recieved the baptism of blood. The good news is from a first century “Purgatory” faith one is on his/her way into heaven, but as through fire so that nothing unclean may enter the presence of God. So in all reality “Purgatory” is hope for the soul.

To understand “Purgatory” do you know the difference between “Redemption” and “Salvation”? I believe getting past these definitions will help you gain an understanding of the first century Gospel writers concept of “Purgatory”.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Yep. They do.

Gabriel of 12;

Now your turn; Where is “polygamy” practiced by the first century bible christians? Where is it taught that God himself took on flesh and had sex with the virgin Mary? Where is it taught in the Hebrew interpretation of Scripture that God the Father is a glorified man, possessing a physical body? Where in scripture does it teach that you must pay a price to enter the temple? Because Jesus himself taught that man is not given in marriage in heaven; Show me in scripture where man is given a celestial marriage in heaven while maintaining a polygamy eteranl life?
Where in scripture does it teach that we are to adhere to a new prophet other than Jesus?

 

[Techno2000]

Yep. They do. How about purgatory? How come a thief got to go to heaven without it just because he was crucified with Jesus?

Always wondered about that one. How come we have to suffer for our sins in purgatory when Christ already did it for us? I guess the atonement only took partially.

Just a couple in a minute or less.

The thief went to a high level of “Sheol” which was Abraham’s Bosom,along with Jesus, to a Terrestrial Paradise in the underground world. Jesus didn’t ascend into Heaven until 40 days after his Death.

 

[mfbukowski]

The thief went to a high level of “Sheol” which was Abraham’s Bosom,along with Jesus, to a Terrestrial Paradise in the underground world. Jesus didn’t ascend into Heaven until 40 days after his Death.

Spirits in spirit prison are not there to be punished for a period of time. They are there to find the gospel. They do not atone for their own sins.

There is a big difference

 

[majick275]

Spirits in spirit prison are not there to be punished for a period of time. They are there to find the gospel. They do not atone for their own sins.

There is a big difference

neither do souls in purgatory atone for their own sins. they are purged of their impurities so that they can enter into th epresence of God

 

[Techno2000]

Spirits in spirit prison are not there to be punished for a period of time. They are there to find the gospel. They do not atone for their own sins.

There is a big difference

The Souls in the “Spirit Prison” were the souls of the “Just” Jews and Pagans.They had to wait in that part of “Sheol” for Jesus to open up the Gates of Heaven for them.Now that Jesus has open the Gates of Heaven, Purgatory came into being.