Catholics who know history: please answer

[Hisalone]

**Are you aware that we Catholics follow Jesus? He told our church to do the binding and loosing. We are follower of the Catholic Church. I actually laughed when I followed your link and went to the Messianic Good News,a non-profit organisation, founded in 1950 . My church was founded 2,000 years ago by Jesus Himself! . I “quoted” Him and you refer me to a moderrn site in rebuttle. I knew binding and loosing were jewish terms. Jesus was Jewish, my friend! You are too precious for words! **

Can you define what binding and loosing means in a Jewish context? That is why I gave the link I did.
Why do you mock a faith that is thousands of years older than Peter? The faith of Peter and all the apostlies. Just doesnt make sense to me.
Can you contribute to this discussion or are you just here to mock me and the Jews?

 

[Hisalone]

**Are you aware that we Catholics follow Jesus? He told our church to do the binding and loosing. We are follower of the Catholic Church. I actually laughed when I followed your link and went to the Messianic Good News,a non-profit organisation, founded in 1950 . My church was founded 2,000 years ago by Jesus Himself! . I “quoted” Him and you refer me to a moderrn site in rebuttle. I knew binding and loosing were jewish terms. Jesus was Jewish, my friend! You are too precious for words! **

Many Catholics follow Mary, sadly.

 

[Realcatholicgk]

Can you define what binding and loosing means in a Jewish context? That is why I gave the link I did.
**
I can defind what it means in a Catholic context. That is the only important thing! Jesus, himself a Jew, explained it very well! He came and fuilfilled the Jewish religion. He left the Church here but who could expect you to read a 10, 000 word article? Hahn does use a lot of big words, so maybe it is better you don’t try!
**

Why do you mock a faith that is thousands of years older than Peter?

**How dare you say that! They are our ancestors! I would never mock them! Now your sending me an article from a 58 year old organization when I refered you directly to Jesus Himself, needs no mocking it is laughable! Don’t you ever dare to attempt to put words in my mouth! **

The faith of Peter and all the apostlies. Just doesnt make sense to me.
**
And “you” being just how important in the realm of things? **

Can you contribute to this discussion or are you just here to mock me and the Jews?

**Can you contribute? Or are you here to bash catholics and our beliefs? You my friend mock yourself! :extrahappy:

Did you ever have a box of candy? **

 

[Realcatholicgk]

Many Catholics follow Mary, sadly.

**Hi Hisalone,

How are you? I have been a Catholic for 64 years. I can honestly say I have never meet a Catholic that followed Mary.You do mean the Blessed Mother? The woman that Jesus, Our lord and savior, called “umm” (Mother?). The woman that He personally gave to the Church? I love this prayer to her:

PRAYER TO OUR LADY, ASSUMED INTO HEAVEN: Immaculate Virgin, Mother of Jesus and our Mother, we believe in your triumphant assumption into heaven where the angels and saints acclaim you as Queen. We join them in praising you and bless the Lord who raised you above all creatures. With them we offer you our devotion and love. We are confident that you watch over our daily efforts and needs, and we take comfort from our faith in the coming resurrection. We look to you, our life, our sweetness, and our hope. After this earthly life, show us Jesus, the blest fruit of your womb, O kind, O loving, O Sweet Virgin Mary. Amen.

How much Jesus loves His mother! How can we do less? **

 

[ufamtobie]

Many Catholics follow Mary, sadly.

(John 2:1-11) When the wine was gone, Jesus’ mother said to him, “They have no more wine.” “Dear woman, why do you involve me?” Jesus replied, “My time has not yet come.” HIS MOTHER SAID TO THE SERVANTS "DO WHAT EVER HE TELLS YOU."

And the servants listend to Virgin Mary! We Catholics listen to Virgin Mary!

Hisalone, so you mean that you wouldn’t listen to Mary who told the servants/US “DO WHATEVER HE TELLS YOU”? Would you ignore Mary?

Hisalone, This is what Virgin Mary is all about to us Catholics, she tells us to “DO WHATEVER HE TELLS YOU/US.”

Jesus Christ himself FOLLOWED MARY and HE LISTEN TO MARY REQUEST to change water into wine EVEN WHEN IT WAS NOT HIS TIME. And if Jesus Christ Followed His Mother we CATHOLIC WILL AND ARE DOING THE SAME!

Hisalone, IT IS TIME FOR YOU TO DO THE SAME AND LISTEN TO VIRGIN MARY! That if truly you want to "DO WHAT EVER JESUS TELL YOU>

Ufamtobie

 

[The_Preacher]

**

Hi The Preacher,
They actually frighten me for the same reasons. I also was familiar with the findings of the Magesterium reference the validity of the Sacraments. But considered that to only refer to a priest being in a state of grace or not! I know that this matter came up with the priest sex scandles about the priest’s ability to perform his priestly duties not being effected by his personal worthyness.

I consider myself an informed Catholic but have never read anything about these exact subjects. I know about ex-communication and its effects. But as we agree Sacraments are not just symbols. But many Protestants do believe that the sacraments are just symbols, many of them don’t even have the seven. So for them are they just symbols? Are they valid for them even the ones they don’t think are sacraments? Why is my head hurting?

I am just going to become like a little child trusting that my “parent” the RCC knows the truth!

I think all these questions are only answerable at God’s paygrade! **

:extrahappy: My head used to hurt a lot too. Then, long after I thought I had faith and was laboring in the fields, FAITH hit me! :whacky: It’s a perspective no one argueing from any other perspective can understand. I had a lot of knowledge, and a lot of grim acceptance and resolve, but without understanding until Faith hit and suddenly, it was all so clear. Then my head stopped hurting. In fact, this whole life stopped hurting. And I really look forward to what’s comming next! I even became playful, as with these smily faces, which I’m sure drive some up the wall and to whome I can faithfully say, loosen up! As a good buddy of mine says: God is good, and He has a nice mother. As to symbols, I suspect Protistants they get what they pay for, with a free premium of a dollop of Grace!

 

[Realcatholicgk]

:extrahappy: My head used to hurt a lot too. Then, long after I thought I had faith and was laboring in the fields, FAITH hit me! :whacky: It’s a perspective no one argueing from any other perspective can understand. I had a lot of knowledge, and a lot of grim acceptance and resolve, but without understanding until Faith hit and suddenly, it was all so clear. Then my head stopped hurting. In fact, this whole life stopped hurting. And I really look forward to what’s comming next! I even became playful, as with these smily faces, which I’m sure drive some up the wall and to whome I can faithfully say, loosen up! As a good buddy of mine says: God is good, and He has a nice mother. As to symbols, I suspect Protistants they get what they pay for, with a free premium of a dollop of Grace!

**
I know what you mean. I rarely question what faith can answer!
My parish here is St Monica’s. So I have been reading a lot about her son! He was a wise doctor of the church! And what a sense of humor!

Faith is to believe what you do not see; the reward of this faith is to see what you believe. Saint Augustine

Seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. Saint Augustine

If you believe what you like in the gospels, and reject what you don’t like, it is not the gospel you believe, but yourself.” Saint Augustine

He who created us without our help will not save us without our consent. Saint Augustine

Find out how much God has given you and from it take what you need; the remainder is needed by others.Saint Augustine

Forgiveness is the remission of sins. For it is by this that what has been lost, and was found, is saved from being lost again.Saint Augustine

Give me chastity and continence, but not quite yet. Saint Augustine **freesmileys.org/smileys/laughing025.gif

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[benedictus2]

Did you read my link?
Do you expect me to read a 10000 word article?
If Hahn is the best you have Ill pass.

I did read your link and it misses a few points. One being when Jesus was talking about binding and losing he was also passing giving the keys to Peter in particular NOT TO HIS DISCIPLES. Read the passage again. He was addressing Peter. I could dissect it further but I will leave that for when I am wide awake.

Do I expect you to read a 10,000 word article? Why is that a problem? Is there a limit to the number of words you are capable of reading?

Scott Hahn also has a much better explanation of covenants than Peter Cohen in his book “A Father who keeps His promise” but I think we can completely discount you ever reading that because that is well over 10000 words.

And why are you afraid to read Hahn? Your refusal to read the article just proves everything of what I have said about you before. You would rather remain in the dark than step into the light.

WHAT ARE YOU AFRAID OF?

 

[Contarini]

I’d have thought what we had here was a failure to excomunicate. All joking aside; As we say here in Wisconsin, you can pass the ball but you can’t control where the receiver will run with it. Luther would have been horrified at being accuded of leaving the Catholic faith. He had questions about a lot of the abuses he saw, and most certainly there were abuses

Luther wasn’t primarily concerned with abuses. He said that the reason previous reformers had failed was that they attacked the abuses instead of getting to the doctrinal issues.

Luther would have wanted to be evaluated by the truth of his doctrine. Since I do not think that Luther’s peculiar understanding of justification is the truth by which the Church stands or falls, I do not think that his actions in defying the hierarchy of the Church and calling the Pope Antichrist were justified. And while Luther would disagree (violently) with my premise, I think he would respect my conclusion. I think he’d be quite contemptuous of attempts to justify him based on the corruption and tyranny of Rome without examining the doctrinal basis for what he did.

I don’t know why people want to turn Luther into Erasmus. This is not respectful of Luther at all.

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

I must propose a correction to the above.
If historical record is of any value, I must submit that ‘Catholic Reformation’ as you peruse the term actually occured way before 1560 as you stated.

Agreed. The term is quite hard to define, but at the very latest we’d have to date it from the commissioning of the “Consilium de Emendanda Ecclesia” in 1536 (a document co-authored by the real Contarini!). One problem is that there were two basic directions the Catholic Reformation could have gone in–the more conciliatory one represented by Contarini and Pole, and the more hardline one represented by Carafa. The latter more or less triumphed.

1. Even if you only consider the Council of Trent, it started 1545.
2. Martin Luther’s 95 Theses in 1517 was done when he was a Catholic Priest. Technically speaking, he was part of ‘Catholic Reformation’ before he became protestant.This makes your claim “Protestant reformation begining before 1517” technically a misnomer.

An interesting point. At what point does an early “Catholic Reformation” become a “Protestant Reformation”?

1. Substantially, there were already countless Catholic reformers almost a century before Luther: St Ignatius; St. Philip Neri and St. Vincent de Paul

All of these people were younger/later than Luther.

Luther: 1483-1546
Loyola: 1491-1556 (so a slightly younger contemporary)
Philip Neri 1515-1595
Vincent de Paul 1581-1660

There were indeed many Catholic reformers, both orthodox and heterodox, well before Luther. The Church has never lacked for reformers.

Myself, I’m not a big fan of reformations in general. If it weren’t for the Catholic Reformation, I’d probably be Catholic today. (I suppose I should really be Eastern Catholic by that logic, since that’s the closest one can get to an unreformed church in union with Rome!) I much prefer medieval Catholicism to “reformed” Catholicism.

Edwin

 

[Hisalone]

I did read your link and it misses a few points. One being when Jesus was talking about binding and losing he was also passing giving the keys to Peter in particular NOT TO HIS DISCIPLES. Read the passage again. He was addressing Peter. I could dissect it further but I will leave that for when I am wide awake.

Do I expect you to read a 10,000 word article? Why is that a problem? Is there a limit to the number of words you are capable of reading?

Scott Hahn also has a much better explanation of covenants than Peter Cohen in his book “A Father who keeps His promise” but I think we can completely discount you ever reading that because that is well over 10000 words.

And why are you afraid to read Hahn? Your refusal to read the article just proves everything of what I have said about you before. You would rather remain in the dark than step into the light.

WHAT ARE YOU AFRAID OF?

From the link I gave.

**Alfred Edersheim **](the foremost authority on Jewish tradition as it relates to Jewish customs at the time of Christ)describes how the terms “binding” and “loosing” were used and understood during the time of Jesus’ earthly ministry:

“No other terms were in more constant use in Rabbinic Canon-Law than those of ‘binding and loosing.’ The words are the literal translation of the Hebrew equivalents Asar, which means ‘to bind,’ in the sense of prohibiting, and Hittir, which means ‘to loose,’ in the sense of permitting. For the latter the term Shera or Sheri is also used. But this expression is, both in Targumic and Talmudic diction, not merely the equivalent of permitting, but passes into that of remitting, or pardoning. On the other hand, ‘binding and loosing’ referred simply to things or acts, prohibiting or else permitting them, declaring them lawful or unlawful. This was one of the powers claimed by the Rabbis … If this then represented the legislative another pretension of the Rabbis, that of declaring ‘free’ or else ‘liable,’ i.e. guilty, expressed their claim to the judicial power. By the first of these they ‘bound’ or ‘loosed’ acts or things; by the second they ‘remitted’ or ‘retained,’ declared a person free from, or liable to punishment, to compensation, or to sacrifice. **These two powers – the legislative and judicial – which belonged to the Rabbinic office, Christ now transferred… to His Apostles. **

 

[Realcatholicgk]

Agreed. The term is quite hard to define, but at the very latest we’d have to date it from the commissioning of the “Consilium de Emendanda Ecclesia” in 1536 (a document co-authored by the real Contarini!). One problem is that there were two basic directions the Catholic Reformation could have gone in–the more conciliatory one represented by Contarini and Pole, and the more hardline one represented by Carafa. The latter more or less triumphed.

An interesting point. At what point does an early “Catholic Reformation” become a “Protestant Reformation”?

**When the devil got involved! **

All of these people were younger/later than Luther.

Luther: 1483-1546
Loyola: 1491-1556 (so a slightly younger contemporary)
Philip Neri 1515-1595
Vincent de Paul 1581-1660

There were indeed many Catholic reformers, both orthodox and heterodox, well before Luther. The Church has never lacked for reformers.
**
Reform is a good thing! We need to remember the Body of christ is alive! **

Myself, I’m not a big fan of reformations in general. If it weren’t for the Catholic Reformation, I’d probably be Catholic today. (I suppose I should really be Eastern Catholic by that logic, since that’s the closest one can get to an unreformed church in union with Rome!) I much prefer medieval Catholicism to “reformed” Catholicism.

** Yea burn them protestants at the stake! I am with you midieval is the way to go! /COLOR]**

Edwin

 

[Hisalone]

I did read your link and it misses a few points. One being when Jesus was talking about binding and losing he was also passing giving the keys to Peter in particular NOT TO HIS DISCIPLES. Read the passage again. He was addressing Peter. I could dissect it further but I will leave that for when I am wide awake.

Do I expect you to read a 10,000 word article? Why is that a problem? Is there a limit to the number of words you are capable of reading?

The best way of doing it is to copy and paste a paragraph or two that deals directly to the subject at hand and then link the entire article.
Scott Hahn also has a much better explanation of covenants than Peter Cohen in his book “A Father who keeps His promise” but I think we can completely discount you ever reading that because that is well over 10000 words.


then briefly sumurize it.
And why are you afraid to read Hahn? Your refusal to read the article just proves everything of what I have said about you before. You would rather remain in the dark than step into the light.

WHAT ARE YOU AFRAID OF?

I know that Hahn is the golden boy for Catholics however I am unimpressed. Edershiem is a super heavywieght. Hahn is on par with maybe John Hagee on our side.

 

[Hisalone]

Originally Posted by Hisalone
Can you define what binding and loosing means in a Jewish context? That is why I gave the link I did.

I can defind what it means in a Catholic context. That is the only important thing! Jesus, himself a Jew, explained it very well! He came and fuilfilled the Jewish religion. He left the Church here but who could expect you to read a 10, 000 word article? Hahn does use a lot of big words, so maybe it is better you don’t try!

Jesus, a Jew, was addressing a Jewish audience to properly understand what He was saying you must understand the Jewish context not the Catholic one. BTW most Catholic scholars start with this position. If you had read your own scholars you would have understood this. Raymond Brown is the foremost Catholic NT scholar however most of his books arent loaded with pictures
If you cant present your case in a concise manner I dont have time to fool with it. It means you dont understand the issues at hand. Learn the issues at hand and get back to me.
Why do you mock a faith that is thousands of years older than Peter?

How dare you say that! They are our ancestors! I would never mock them! Now your sending me an article from a 58 year old organization when I refered you directly to Jesus Himself, needs no mocking it is laughable! Don’t you ever dare to attempt to put words in my mouth!

The faith of Peter and all the apostlies. Just doesnt make sense to me.

And “you” being just how important in the realm of things?

Can you contribute to this discussion or are you just here to mock me and the Jews?

Can you contribute? Or are you here to bash catholics and our beliefs? You my friend mock yourself!

You have yet to tell me what you believe:shrug:
Did you ever have a box of candy?

 

[Usagi]

If this then represented the legislative another pretension of the Rabbis, that of declaring ‘free’ or else ‘liable,’ i.e. guilty, expressed their claim to the judicial power. By the first of these they ‘bound’ or ‘loosed’ acts or things; by the second they ‘remitted’ or ‘retained,’ declared a person free from, or liable to punishment, to compensation, or to sacrifice. **These two powers – the legislative and judicial – which belonged to the Rabbinic office, Christ now transferred… to His Apostles. **

Sorry for snipping most of your quotation, but I didn’t want the part I was quoting from you to take up several times more space than the part I’m adding.

From reading your Edersheim excerpt, the Jewish take on binding and loosing sounds very much like the Catholic take to me – a legislative and judicial power within the body of believers, including the ability to declare certain acts lawful or unlawful.

Of course, in Catholic thinking (and likely also in Jewish thinking), any such declarations cannot go against the deposit of faith that God Himself has provided. Just as Jewish leaders weren’t supposed to introduce ideas that contradicted the Law (as Jesus occasionally reprimanded the leaders of His time for doing), so the Pope and bishops are not permitted to deny or dispense from what is already revealed. They can, though, make rules for particular times and places as a way of helping believers live out the Gospel. We see that even in Paul, who distinguished between rulings he had from God and those which he, personally, handed down on his apostolic authority.

Thus, no Pope can teach against the Trinity or make murder permissible. The Pope and bishops can, however, make changeable rules about the requirements for getting married, say, or days of feasting and fasting. They are also empowered to clarify God’s revelation as different situations arise; thus, it was the bishops in council that worked out the relationships of the Trinity in then-contemporary philosophical terms, and church leaders who drew distinctions between cases of murder and cases of justified killing. (A distinction that obviously already existed under the Mosaic Law, since the same God who gave the fifth commandment – sixth for Protestants, I think – also commanded warfare and the death penalty in certain situations.)

Usagi

 

[Hisalone]

**Hi Hisalone,

How are you? I have been a Catholic for 64 years. I can honestly say I have never meet a Catholic that followed Mary.You do mean the Blessed Mother? The woman that Jesus, Our lord and savior, called “umm” (Mother?). The woman that He personally gave to the Church? I love this prayer to her:

PRAYER TO OUR LADY, ASSUMED INTO HEAVEN: **Immaculate Virgin, Mother of Jesus and our Mother, we believe in your triumphant assumption into heaven where the angels and saints acclaim you as Queen. We join them in praising you and bless the Lord who raised you above all creatures. With them we offer you our devotion and love. We are confident that you watch over our daily efforts and needs, and we take comfort from our faith in the coming resurrection. We look to you, our life, our sweetness, and our hope. After this earthly life, show us Jesus, the blest fruit of your womb, O kind, O loving, O Sweet Virgin Mary. Amen.

How much Jesus loves His mother! How can we do less?

I ve met many of them.
The issues of life pour out of the heart.

If you talk to them they will go on and on about Mary about her apparitions about the rosary or the scaptular they go on and on about sacred heart devotions and concegrating Russia to Mary

they pray" …and show us the fruit of thy womb…" year after year but never turn to Jesus, or speak of Jesus.

 

[Hisalone]

Sorry for snipping most of your quotation, but I didn’t want the part I was quoting from you to take up several times more space than the part I’m adding.

From reading your Edersheim excerpt, the Jewish take on binding and loosing sounds very much like the Catholic take to me – a legislative and judicial power within the body of believers, including the ability to declare certain acts lawful or unlawful.

Of course, in Catholic thinking (and likely also in Jewish thinking), any such declarations cannot go against the deposit of faith that God Himself has provided. Just as Jewish leaders weren’t supposed to introduce ideas that contradicted the Law (as Jesus occasionally reprimanded the leaders of His time for doing), so the Pope and bishops are not permitted to deny or dispense from what is already revealed. They can, though, make rules for particular times and places as a way of helping believers live out the Gospel. We see that even in Paul, who distinguished between rulings he had from God and those which he, personally, handed down on his apostolic authority.

Thus, no Pope can teach against the Trinity or make murder permissible. The Pope and bishops can, however, make changeable rules about the requirements for getting married, say, or days of feasting and fasting. They are also empowered to clarify God’s revelation as different situations arise; thus, it was the bishops in council that worked out the relationships of the Trinity in then-contemporary philosophical terms, and church leaders who drew distinctions between cases of murder and cases of justified killing. (A distinction that obviously already existed under the Mosaic Law, since the same God who gave the fifth commandment – sixth for Protestants, I think – also commanded warfare and the death penalty in certain situations.)

Usagi

So far I have little to disagree with
How about the Doctrine of Salvation, Can councils and popes change what scripture says about salvation?

 

[steve_b]

:extrahappy: My head used to hurt a lot too. Then, long after I thought I had faith and was laboring in the fields, FAITH hit me! :whacky: It’s a perspective no one argueing from any other perspective can understand. I had a lot of knowledge, and a lot of grim acceptance and resolve, but without understanding until Faith hit and suddenly, it was all so clear. Then my head stopped hurting. In fact, this whole life stopped hurting. And I really look forward to what’s comming next! I even became playful, as with these smily faces, which I’m sure drive some up the wall and to whome I can faithfully say, loosen up! As a good buddy of mine says: God is good, and He has a nice mother. As to symbols, I suspect Protistants they get what they pay for, with a free premium of a dollop of Grace!

What you describe , JPII addressed in an encyclical, faith + reason, i.e effects of one without the other … vs working together
vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_15101998_fides-et-ratio_en.html

 

[Realcatholicgk]

So far I have little to disagree with
How about the Doctrine of Salvation, Can councils and popes change what scripture says about salvation?

**Hi Hisalone, **
**Actually that would depend on what you “think” scripture says about the doctrine of salvation. The Catholic church might interpret it differently then you do, but that is our right! criptures belong to the real church of Jesus! **

---

God Bless!

 

[Realcatholicgk]

Can you define what binding and loosing means in a Jewish context? That is why I gave the link I did.

I can defind what it means in a Catholic context. That is the only important thing! Jesus, himself a Jew, explained it very well! He came and fuilfilled the Jewish religion. He left the Church here but who could expect you to read a 10, 000 word article? Hahn does use a lot of big words, so maybe it is better you don’t try!

Jesus, a Jew, was addressing a Jewish audience to properly understand what He was saying you must understand the Jewish context not the Catholic one. BTW most Catholic scholars start with this position. If you had read your own scholars you would have understood this.
Actually I did understand that! What you seem to have failed to understand, because I must have typed it too fast, is that the Catholic church has already done what you think I should do! We are 2,000 years old not 500 or less! It has all been done for us. We have only to believe!
Raymond Brown is the foremost Catholic NT scholar however most of his books arent loaded with pictures

Can’t refer Protestants to them, thanks for the tip! [Reminder to self: no books without pictures no articles over 10,000 words! Protestants seem to have problems with both!]

If you cant present your case in a concise manner I dont have time to fool with it. It means you dont understand the issues at hand. Learn the issues at hand and get back to me.

**The issues at hand are: You are wrong! The Catholic church is correct! You don’t even understand that your soul is in danger of eternal damnation because you are playing with the real church and Jesus’ teachings. You seem determined to make Jesus a liar, and twist His words to suit your own corrupted beliefs. There, did I cover all the “issues” for you? **
Why do you mock a faith that is thousands of years older than Peter?

How dare you say that! They are our ancestors! I would never mock them! Now your sending me an article from a 58 year old organization when I refered you directly to Jesus Himself, needs no mocking it is laughable! Don’t you ever dare to attempt to put words in my mouth!

The faith of Peter and all the apostlies. Just doesnt make sense to me.

And “you” being just how important in the realm of things?

Can you contribute to this discussion or are you just here to mock me and the Jews?

Can you contribute? Or are you here to bash catholics and our beliefs? You my friend mock yourself!

You have yet to tell me what you believe:shrug:

**I believe you don’t watch movies! Or you would have understood my question: **

Did you ever have a box of candy?

God Bless