Catholics who know history: please answer

[Realcatholicgk]

you make me laugh, i assure you that god is much bigger and larger than your point of view,your attitude and snideness would certainly not do anything but drive me away,I suggest you read a little more of the gospels to get the true meaning of what it takes to be a follower of the savior Jesus,and i also assure you that i,m not in the least bit worried of my salvation. IN CHRIST.

**Hi universalist,

I also assure you that you really should be! Don’t you really want to be a follower of Jesus? It is so easy!
There are only two Churches which have valid Eucharist and Mysteries/Sacraments…the same two Churches which maintain an unbroken Apostolic Succession Line back to Jesus’ 12 Apostles. Those Churches are know today as the: Orthodox and Catholic Churches.

Please read Jesus’ words and know that they are true:

John 6: 50-65 “This is the bread which comes down out of heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die. I am the living bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread also which I will give for the life of the world is My flesh.” Then the Jews (AK)began to argue with one another, saying, “How can this man give us His flesh to eat?” So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves. He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.” "For My flesh is true food, and My blood is true drink. He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him. “As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats Me, he also will live because of Me. This is the bread which came down out of heaven; not as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live forever.”
These things He said in the synagogue as He taught in Capernaum. Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this said, “This is a difficult statement; who can listen to it?” But Jesus, conscious that His disciples grumbled at this, said to them, "Does this cause you to stumble? "What then if you see the Son of Man acending to where He was before? It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; he words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life. "But there are some of you who do not believe " For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him. And He was saying, “For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.”

I am not bigoted, Jesus set the rules, I only hope to help lead my separated brethern to the real church. I pray the rosary everyday for the conversion of sinners.

God Bless**

 

[Realcatholicgk]

Hi Universalist,

Please don’t think that all Catholics ar arrogant. The Roman Catholic Church is a rich source of Christian history and traditions. The writings of the early church fathers and church historians are a wealth of information about what the early Christians believed and how Christianity grew. Like I’ve mentioned before, Christianity is the religion, the true Church is made up of Christians, wherever they are.

**Hi, John1

Please don’t think that I am arrogant or bigoted. The words I use may appear that way. But, I am only a firm believer in the Catholic church and a defender of our beliefs! That is what a powerful catholic does! We profess our faith for all to hear! I do apologize to anyone Catholic or Protestant that takes offense to the way I say anything. I do not suggest that I am wrong in anything that I say! I am not usually wrong and I may not say it the way that others, who are smarter or more educated than I would or could, but i speak the truth!

By the way,John1, you said that the Catholic church was a denomination and Christanity was the religion! That isn’t true!
Sure it is a nice way of looking at it, I guess. but it is false. That isn’t what our church teaches.

" Catholic" is the religion, it has no denominations. You are thinking of the “separated brethren” churches. They, in fact, have over 61,000 denominations. However they," the people" , are all members of the Catholic religion. Only their churches aren’t! :nope: How could they be? They practice 1,375 doctrines and dogmas many of which conflict or contradict the real teaching that Jesus provided the Catholic church 2,000 years ago and must be followed in order to obtain salvation. I fact some of their teachings were only developed to oppose the teaching of the Catholic religion. Does that make sense to you?

God Bless!**

 

[Realcatholicgk]

But why should I believe a lie?
The oracles of God were entrusted to the Jews. Scriptures were written by the breath of God through the Jews.

A good example of why the Roman Church is unrelieable.

**Hi Hisalone,
That is eactly what I wanted to ask you. Why do you believe lies, many actually? You appear intelligent, although I must admit quite ignorant of God and the real teaching of Jesus, but not being Catholic I guess that is understandable to a point!
Actually, the OT came from our Jewish Ancestors. Jesus fullfilled the OT. The NT came from the Catholic church! All the scriptures were written over a period of over 5,000 years, by the hands of many men, promulgating truths inspired by God almighty.
However, since the scriptures are inspired, there is another and no less important principle needed for correct interpretation, without which Scriptures remain dead letters. “Sacred Scripture must be read and interpreted in the light of the same Spirit by whom it was written” By default, the Catholic church is the only approved interpreting authority since it has protected the real teachings of Sacred Scripture for over 2,000 years. While “others” have rewritten, modified, changed, distorted and edited the Holy Bible into over 100 different versions of the real bible in less than 500 years.

This in itsself is a good example of why only the Catholic Church is reliable!

God Bless**

 

[John1]

**Hi, John1

Please don’t think that I am arrogant or bigoted. The words I use may appear that way. But, I am only a firm believer in the Catholic church and a defender of our beliefs! That is what a powerful catholic does! We profess our faith for all to hear! I do apologize to anyone Catholic or Protestant that takes offense to the way I say anything. I do not suggest that I am wrong in anything that I say! I am not usually wrong and I may not say it the way that others, who are smarter or more educated than I would or could, but i speak the truth!

By the way,John1, you said that the Catholic church was a denomination and Christanity was the religion! That isn’t true!
Sure it is a nice way of looking at it, I guess. but it is false. That isn’t what our church teaches.

" Catholic" is the religion, it has no denominations. You are thinking of the “separated brethren” churches. They, in fact, have over 61,000 denominations. However they," the people" , are all members of the Catholic religion. Only their churches aren’t! :nope: How could they be? They practice 1,375 doctrines and dogmas many of which conflict or contradict the real teaching that Jesus provided the Catholic church 2,000 years ago and must be followed in order to obtain salvation. I fact some of their teachings were only developed to oppose the teaching of the Catholic religion. Does that make sense to you?

God Bless!**

The word “catholic” is a greek word meaning univeral. It’s early application was to the Church made up of Christians. The disciples were first called “Christians” at Antioch.

“And it came about that for an entire year they met with the church, and taught considerable numbers; and the disciples were first called Christians at Antioch.” (Acts 11:23-26).

The first known use of the word “catholic” was in a letter written by Ignatius bishop of Antioch. So I am not wrong, Christianity is the religion and “the catolic church” refers to the universal body of believers in Christ.

Do we worship Jesus Christ or the Church that Jesus Christ built?

The term “the Roman Catholic Church” refers to one group of Christians , “the Orthodox Church” refers to another group of Christian, “the Coptic Church” refers to another group of Christians, and so on. The commmon denominator is "Christians and Chistianity is our religion.

 

[Realcatholicgk]

The word “catholic” is a greek word meaning univeral. It’s early application was to the Church made up of Christians. The disciples were first called “Christians” at Antioch.

**

Hi John,
Yes! And the word “church” is also derived from a greek word kyriakon (cyriacon) meaning the Lord’s house! It’s early application was in the third century, as well as ekklesia, to signify a Christian place of worship. **

“And it came about that for an entire year they met with the church, and taught considerable numbers; and the disciples were first called Christians at Antioch.” (Acts 11:23-26).

The first known use of the word “catholic” was in a letter written by Ignatius bishop of Antioch. So I am not wrong, Christianity is the religion and “the catolic church” refers to the universal body of believers in Christ
.
**
Well, could we both be right? The catholic religion is composed of 23 particular rites—the Latin Rite and 22 smaller Eastern rites. These rites are commonly referred to as “Churchs”, They are the only remains of the original christian religion from which the Catholic rites came. Therefore anyone claiming to be a christian is a Catholic. That is what our church teaches! **

Do we worship Jesus Christ or the Church that Jesus Christ built?

**Boy, John, that wiould be hard to say with some people, You might even find it hard to tell if some are even Catholic! But I, myself, would say that we worship Jesus Christ through His Church and the seven sacraments that He left for us. How about you? **

The term “the Roman Catholic Church” refers to one group of Christians , “the Orthodox Church” refers to another group of Christian, “the Coptic Church” refers to another group of Christians, and so on. The commmon denominator is "Christians and Chistianity is our religion.

**
The Catholic religion consists of 23 particular rites—the Latin Rite and 22 smaller Eastern rites. The common denominator is apolostic succession and the “real presence” of Jesus in the Eucharist!

Oh John1, I almost forgot another reason the CCC is better than Wikipedia for obtaining data is ~ it is written by Catholics.

God Bless**

 

[Hisalone]

How. Please show me in the NT where it say’s that we cannot have statues of the Blessed Mother, Jesus and the Saints? PLEASE! You keep going back to the OT. I exlained to you that in the OT God did not reveal himself as Man yet. God did not send the Blessed Mother yet! So again please show me the scripture where it says that a Statue of Jesus is a false God!

Hello rinnie,
I know of nothing in the NT that prohibibts statues.
I also know nothing in the NT allowing statues. Christianity was born out of the Jewish religion. In that religion statues, icons were strickly forbidden. It was the pagan cultures surrounding the Jews that states and icons were used.
Did you know that early Christian teaching forbade the same?
Did you know that early Christian teaching forbade the praying to saints?

To proceed: Neither the veneration, nor so much as the use of images, was in the very early Christian Church. This is pretty plain from St. Epiphanius, Bishop of Constantia, in Cyprus, in his letter to John of Jerusalem, where he declares strongly against this practice: “When I came into a country church of Palestine, called Anablatha, I found a certain cloth hanging over the door, upon which there was a picture painted like that of our Savior or some saint, for I cannot certainly remember whose picture it was. However, seeing the figure of a man in the Church of Christ, contrary to the authority of the Holy Scriptures, I tore it, and gave orders to the church-wardens to wrap it around some corpse and bury it.” And though this Father went too far in asserting the unlawfulness of having any pictures in churches, yet we may fairly infer, that this practice was not customary in Cyprus or Palestine in Epiphanius’ time. See Council of Nicaea 2nd (i.e., the Seventh Ecumenical Council): Epiph. Haeres: 27, which agrees with the testimony cited.

“Works of art cannot then be sacred and divine.” - Clement of Alexandria (The Stromata, 7:5)

“In a word, if we refuse our homage to statues and frigid images, the very counterpart of their dead originals, with which hawks, and mice, and spiders are so well acquainted, does it not merit praise instead of penalty, that we have rejected what we have come to see is error?” - Tertullian (The Apology, 12)

 

[Hisalone]

“We know that the names of the dead are nothing, as are their images; but we know well enough, too, who, when images are set up, under these names carry on their wicked work, and exult in the homage rendered to them, and pretend to be divine–none other than spirits accursed, than devils.” - Tertullian (De Spectaculis, 10)
“For how could he [Peter on the Mount of Transfiguration] have known Moses and Elias, except by being in the Spirit? People could not have had their images, or statues, or likenesses; for that the law forbade.” - Tertullian (Against Marcion, 4:22)

“But, they say, we do not fear the images themselves, but those beings after whose likeness they were formed, and to whose names they are dedicated. You fear them doubtless on this account, because you think that they are in heaven; for if they are gods, the case cannot be otherwise. Why, then, do you not raise your eyes to heaven, and, invoking their names, offer sacrifices in the open air? Why do you look to walls, and wood, and stone, rather than to the place where you believe them to be?..Wherefore it is undoubted that there is no religion wherever there is an image. For if religion consists of divine things, and there is nothing divine except in heavenly things; it follows that images are without religion, because there can be nothing heavenly in that which is made from the earth.” - Lactantius (The Divine Institutes, 2:2, 2:19)
“Moreover, I have heard that certain persons have this grievance against me: When I accompanied you to the holy place called Bethel, there to join you in celebrating the Collect, after the use of the Church, I came to a villa called Anablatha and, as I was passing, saw a lamp burning there. Asking what place it was, and learning it to be a church, I went in to pray, and found there a curtain hanging on the doors of the said church, dyed and embroidered. It bore an image either of Christ or of one of the saints; I do not rightly remember whose the image was. Seeing this, and being loth that an image of a man should be hung up in Christ’s church contrary to the teaching of the Scriptures, I tore it asunder and advised the custodians of the place to use it as a winding sheet for some poor person. They, however, murmured, and said that if I made up my mind to tear it, it was only fair that I should give them another curtain in its place. As soon as I heard this, I promised that I would give one, and said that I would send it at once. Since then there has been some little delay, due to the fact that I have been seeking a curtain of the best quality to give to them instead of the former one, and thought it right to send to Cyprus for one. I have now sent the best that I could find, and I beg that you will order the presbyter of the place to take the curtain which I have sent from the hands of the Reader, and that you will afterwards give directions that curtains of the other sort–opposed as they are to our religion–shall not be hung up in any church of Christ. A man of your uprightness should be careful to remove an occasion of offence unworthy alike of the Church of Christ and of those Christians who are committed to your charge.” (Jerome’s Letter 51:9)

 

[Hisalone]

The Apostolic Fathers (Athenagoras, Theophilus, Minucius Felix, Arnobius, Tertullian, Cyprian) spoke firmly against idols. They denounced not only the worship but even the manufacture and possession of such images. These texts all regard idols as images made to be adored. Origen was proud of Christian aniconism, repudiating graven images as only fit for demons in Contra Celsum, and Irenaeus (H 1:25:6) condemned the followers of Marcellina who painted images and made statues, which they crowned, including images of philosophers like Pythagoras, Plato and Aristotle, as well as Christ. The immediate expectation of Christ’s second coming would also have made image making unlikely.

In 306 AD, the general synod of the Church of Spain, the Synod of Elvira, a city near Granada, decreed against Christians who relapsed into idolatry, heresy, or sins against the Sixth Commandment. Sacred pictures were obviously used in public worship by the beginning of the fourth century. Canon 34 reads:

It is ordained that pictures are not to be in churches, so that that which is worshipped and adored shall not be painted on walls.
askwhy.co.uk/christianity/0705VenerationImages.php

 

[Hisalone]

**Hi Hisalone,
That is eactly what I wanted to ask you. Why do you believe lies, many actually? You appear intelligent, although I must admit quite ignorant of God and the real teaching of Jesus, but not being Catholic I guess that is understandable to a point!
Actually, the OT came from our Jewish Ancestors. Jesus fullfilled the OT. The NT came from the Catholic church! All the scriptures were written over a period of over 5,000 years, by the hands of many men, promulgating truths inspired by God almighty.
However, since the scriptures are inspired, there is another and no less important principle needed for correct interpretation, without which Scriptures remain dead letters. “Sacred Scripture must be read and interpreted in the light of the same Spirit by whom it was written” By default, the Catholic church is the only approved interpreting authority since it has protected the real teachings of Sacred Scripture for over 2,000 years. While “others” have rewritten, modified, changed, distorted and edited the Holy Bible into over 100 different versions of the real bible in less than 500 years.

This in itsself is a good example of why only the Catholic Church is reliable!

God Bless**

The holy bible is written by men who had a personal revelation from God about men and women who had personal revelations from God.
Yet unscupulous men would say that you and I cannot have a personal revelation from God and must allow them to interpret for us.

 

[Realcatholicgk]

**
Hi Metamor,

I almost didn’t answer, However after praying on it decided to!**

Calling us heretics is essentially saying that we do not have salvation through Christ–the same ideas you communicated in your original post I found so offensive.
**
No, it is saying essentially saying that you don’t agree with the Catholic Church. Why would that offend you? **

I am not at all offended if you say that Protestants don’t agree with the Catholic Church.

What DOES offend me? Your description of “heretical” Protestant groups as “cancerous growths,” with a “corrupt” faith, and strongly insinuating that membership within these group are apt to result in “loss of their eternal souls”–is FAR more than merely stating that their doctrine departs from that of the RCC.

**
If I called a murderer, a murderer, He might be offended also. Would my statement be less true? What is somehow he didn’t realize that he was in fact a murderer. Would my statement be less true? If he denied the fact but was in fact a murderer, would my statement be less true?

It is true that saying that protestant groups are “cancerous growths” is certainly FAR more than merely stating that their doctrine departs from the RCC.
It is a “wake up call” that the doctrines and dogmas being taught depart from the word of God. Eternal souls are at stake. many good, well meaning, Jesus loving “Christians” are being lead towards eternal damnation because of false pratices and beliefs! It is that simple! Please realize that what I say, I say in Love! I am a fellow christian attempting to save my separated brethern from lossing their eternal souls. **

Cancer kills. Corruption is the “impairment of integrity, virtue, or moral principle: depravity.” In the history of the Church, “heretics” were anathematized–i.e, cursed. In the Middle Ages, “heretics” were killed because of their dissent from the RCC. The word heretic is a very emotionally charged word–and your association of Protestantism with cancer, corruption and damnation is plenty of evidence that those connotations are what you have in mind when you use the word. It is not a mere difference in doctrinal belief.

**
Metamor, You must remember an Analogy is not the same thing as the same thing. Cancer doesn’t have to kill! That is my point actually! You do understand somewhat. Before 1517AD, there was One Christian Church “ONE” with several different sects. ( All 23 sects are still firmly together even today! ). Anyway, while some were attempting to right some wrong practices in the Church, the devil saw this as a change to infecte the christian church and steal souls from the real church. This can be proven so easily.

Today there are 33,000 counterfeit denominations with 28,000 sub denominations having 1,375 doctrines and dogmas They all partially agree with the CC and all partially disagree with the CC. They don’t agree with each other and none are over 500 years old! So I ask you who the heck is right? The church that has taught only the truth for 2,000 years, always refusing to compromise the truth and remained faithful to Jesus teachings, orthese 61,000 false denominations teaching over 1,375 doctrines. Without the authority handed down through apolostic succession, all protestant denominations are by defination “counterfeit” They may talk, the talk , they may even walk, the walk. " But they do not have the proper certification needed to be considered authentic and therefore are worthless.
Please understand I am not talking about the people! They are members of the body of chris, the catholic church through their baptism! So, there are so many good, faithfilled, loving, caring, christian people who are just being taught falsehoods and being deceived. They can be absorbed into the “real” Body of Christ and follow Jesus’ teachings. They do not have to be destroyed! Yes, Cancer does kill, but it can also be cured. Jesus and His true teachings will cure the cancer called Protestantism.

Remember, you can copy money but if it doesn’t have the backing of the authorized issurer it is counterfeit. It can’t be spent to buy anything! And even if it is good enought to buy things the "authorized issurer will know it is countefeit and not “redeam” it! Read: JN 12:40, AC 2:21, 2:39, RO 9:27, 10:13 Some will not be saved.

You can copy Christianity, but if it doesn’t have the backing of the Holy Catholic Church it is counterfeit. It can’t be used to obtain salvation! Why not, you ask?

Because onlt the 23 Catholic sects. The 22 Eastern and 1 Roman Catholic Churches offer the real Eucharist.
In it, Jesus is present both Physically and Spiritually**. He is “Completely” present. You lord and God is actually here for you to worship and even eat just as He repeately commanded we "Must"do to order to obtain eternal salvation. John 5:
Only full christian believers understand that. Because Satan keeps his followers blinded to the truth!

Will only Catholics be saved? “God has mercy on whoever he chooses, etc.” RO 9:18 Of course there is salvation outside the CC. Vatican II wants to make it relevant upon the individual’s knowledge. You are only excluded if you know that the Catholic church is the right one, but choose not to believe in it or something like that. But Vatican II’s interpretation of these texts don’t seem really plausible, but I accept them.Yes, we are allowed to disagree with things that aren’t doctrine or dogmatic. This isn’t! I kind of like the revised conclusions that Vatican II came to, because I think the old interpretation was faulty, and needed a little clarification.

God Bless

 

[Cinette]

As many have mentioned the issue of indulgences was viewed by Luther as an improper practice. Specifically Luther objected to Tetzel’s practices which prompted his hammering of the famous theses on the church door. But what Luther didn’t realize was that the Pope did not commission Tetzel to preach on indulgences the way in which he was doing.

What fueled the reformation more than anything was after Luther was told to recant and he refused the Pope threw him out. Luther then proceeded to become a student of scripture and wrote his own commentary on works like the book of Romans. He focused initially on salvation by Faith alone which he stated was contrary to what the Catholic church taught which was Faith + Works and claimed the church was teaching something counter to scripture. As his commentary spread of course he developed a following which then lead to the beginnings of the reformation. Other commentary Luther focused on was scripture alone, Christ alone etc. etc.

The question of was is justifiable is a hard one to answer. Even though I don’t attend Catholic services and have personal issues with some things the Roman Catholic Church teaches I would say probably not. Christians should always stand united to the world and any attempts to reform the church should always be conducted internally and not by someone leaving. Francis of Assisi is a good example. He recogized that change was needed but worked within the church to effect that change.

Unfortunately that’s not where we are today so it’s up to the current generations to stand united.

PEACE

I think that the issues threatening society these days is such that we really need to stand together against a violent and pernicious enemy: atheism, secularism; relativism; terrorism; communism; gayism (gay marriageism and its OKism); warism!!!

I wish that the people engaged in producing weapons of war should think again and turn to producing food rather. Oh why must we lose our sons to senseless wars. Why must our children lose their Fathers. There is too much pain, too many trials, too much misery and hurt.

We could fix it with LOVE

 

[Cinette]

Hi there Jesuspaiditall,

Which is more justifiable in any court the Original or a Copy?

You also must do a research regarding on why the Protestant Reformation has itself broken into thousands of pieces on its own and in this reseach YOU will find and come to the only conclusion that the Protestant Reformation was Wrong to happen.

Why is it wrong? …You will come to find that the Protestant Reformation was built on sand and not on Rock and this is the reason for it breaking into thousands of pieces, such as the Lutherans, Calvinists, Baptist, Southern Baptist, Methodist, evangelicals, the list goes on and on Jesus did not want this to happen.

Jesus Christ did say in (LUKE 6:48) HE MAY BE LIKEND TO THE MAN WHO, IN BUILDING A HOUSE, DUG DEEPLY AND LAID THE FOUNDATION ON ROCK. WHEN THE FLOODS CAME THE TORRENT RUSHED IN ON THAT HOUSE, BUT FAILED TO SHAKE IT BECAUSE IT WAS ON SOLID FOUNDATION. … On the other hand, anyone who has heard my words but not put them into practice is like the man who built his house on the ground WITHOUT any foundation. When the torrent rushed upon it , it IMMEDIATELY FELL in and was completely destroyed.

Hmmm Immediately fell! As you know right after the protestant reformation in the 1500 hundreds it immediately fell for it was not founded on ROCK but sand.

There is nothing better than the Original founded on rock all else is a copy, a generic version. Truth is that we all can tell which is the Original and which is the copy in ANYTHING ESPECIALLY THE CATHOLIC CHURCH WHICH STANDS FIRM FOR OVER 2000 YEARS AND COUNTING BUILT ON ROCK AND THE REFORMATION CHURCHESSSSSSSssssssssss. BUILT ON SAND

It is very sad that anyone since the 1500 can start a new church and each new church differs from one another.

God Bless you on your reseach

Jesus Mary Joesph be with you

Ufamtobie

Would it not be more correct to call it Protestant Revolution rather than Reformation?

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

The Apostolic Fathers (Athenagoras, Theophilus, Minucius Felix, Arnobius, Tertullian, Cyprian) spoke firmly against idols. They denounced not only the worship but even the manufacture and possession of such images. These texts all regard idols as images made to be adored. Origen was proud of Christian aniconism, repudiating graven images as only fit for demons in Contra Celsum, and Irenaeus (H 1:25:6) condemned the followers of Marcellina who painted images and made statues, which they crowned, including images of philosophers like Pythagoras, Plato and Aristotle, as well as Christ. The immediate expectation of Christ’s second coming would also have made image making unlikely.

In 306 AD, the general synod of the Church of Spain, the Synod of Elvira, a city near Granada, decreed against Christians who relapsed into idolatry, heresy, or sins against the Sixth Commandment. Sacred pictures were obviously used in public worship by the beginning of the fourth century. Canon 34 reads:

It is ordained that pictures are not to be in churches, so that that which is worshipped and adored shall not be painted on walls.
askwhy.co.uk/christianity/0705VenerationImages.php

OK this is a simple little thing statues of the Saint are not idols. to make my point lets go althe way back to Moses and the ark of the covenant, God gave the design to Mose upon the ark was to be cherubim (angels) were they idols? were they graven images. no the same for statue of the saints. they are nothing more or less than there to represent those that have lived the saintly life for God.

The big problem is people today do not know the difference between prayer and worship. Nowhere in the bible does it say I can only pray to God. Prayer is the act of communication / making your needs known to make a request if we were sitting here together i could look at you and say I pray you sit here and listen with a open mind. I am make a request to you not God and have not broken any commands of God in doing so.

 

[Cinette]

OK this is a simple little thing statues of the Saint are not idols. to make my point lets go althe way back to Moses and the ark of the covenant, God gave the design to Mose upon the ark was to be cherubim (angels) were they idols? were they graven images. no the same for statue of the saints. they are nothing more or less than there to represent those that have lived the saintly life for God.

The big problem is people today do not know the difference between prayer and worship. Nowhere in the bible does it say I can only pray to God. Prayer is the act of communication / making your needs known to make a request if we were sitting here together i could look at you and say I pray you sit here and listen with a open mind. I am make a request to you not God and have not broken any commands of God in doing so.

I thought this thread was about Protestant Reformation!! About history. Now we are discussing idols? That’s goofy! This thread started so well with intelligent comments and civil and respectful arguments. And now?

 

[universalist]

real catholic girl, i thank you for praying for me a heretic in your eyes and my conversion,but you are wasting your time,I was converted in 33 a.d. when JESUS was crucified,rose from the dead,and rescued me and all the world from sin,I also converted daily when I arise and remember that I “AM BAPTIZED” that I belong to JESUS and that I am a member of the holy catholic(CHRISTIAN) Church of all Baptized believers. Jesus said in Mark 16:16 “ALL WHO ARE BAPTIZED AND BELIEVE WILL BE SAVED” the apostle Paul said in Romans 10:9-10 " IF WE CONFESS WITH OUR MOUTH “JESUS IS LORD” AND BELIEVE IN OUR HEART THAT GOD RAISED HIM FROM THE DEAD “YOU WILL BE SAVED” FOR IT IS WITH YOUR HEART THAT YOU BELIEVE AND ARE “JUSTIFIED”,AND WITH YOUR MOUTH THAT YOU CONFESS"AND ARE SAVED" Jesus said about “The Church” Matthew 18:20 " FOR WHERE TWO ARE THREE ARE GATHERD IN “MY NAME”, THERE I “AM WITH THEM”. The earliest christians as described in ACTS 3:42-47 " THEY DEVOTED THEMSELVES TO THE APOSTLE,S TEACHING AND TO THE FELLOWSHIP,TO THE BREAKING OF BREAD AND TO PRAYER.EVERYONE WAS FILLED WITH AWE,AND MANY WONDERS AND MIRACULOUS SIGNS WERE DONE BY THE APOSTLES. ALL THE BELIEVERS WERE"TOGETHER’ AND HAD EVERYTHING IN COMMON. SELLING THEIR POSSESSIONS AND GOODS " THEY GAVE TO ANYONE AS HE HAD NEED". EVERY DAY THEY CONTINUED TO MEET TOGETHER IN THE TEMPLE COURTS. THAY BROKE BREAD “IN THEIR HOMES” AND ATE TOGETHER WITH GLAD AND SINCERE HEARTS,PRAISING GOD AND ENJOYING THE FAVOR OF ALL PEOPLE. AND THE LORD ADDED TO THEIR NUMBER DAILY " THOSE WHO WERE BEING SAVED" so thanks for your concern about my soul but quit waisting your time praying for my conversion as I am already a “Baptized” member of the Holy catholic(small c) CHRISTIAN CHURCH of all believers in “JESUS AS LORD” I rejoice and love all “Followers of Jesus” as my Christian brothers and sisters and have a ton of respect for my Roman Catholic Christian believers,I actually look to the catechism of the Roman Catholic Church for moral guidance and respect the bishop of Rome and much of his teachings “except when they go against my informed conscience” personally my “THEOLOGY’ is summed up in MATTHEW 5-7’THE SERMON ON THE MOUNT” and I try to live my life accordingly but often failing miserably,knowing however that the precious "Body and Blood’ of Jesus was shed to rescue me from my sins. In Christian Unity, Amen.

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

I thought this thread was about Protestant Reformation!! About history. Now we are discussing idols? That’s goofy! This thread started so well with intelligent comments and civil and respectful arguments. And now?

I know and I should apologize for going off topic. i just have a really hard time doing so when I see people post things like that the I have to respond.

Back to the topic at the time there were man that were abusing there authority in the Church and perverting chruch teaching to fit their greed. Luther had ( this is hard for me to say) a few good points. What it boils down to though was the “reformers” got themselves trapped in the same things they were trying to reform the abuse of authority.

 

[Cinette]

real catholic girl, i thank you for praying for me a heretic in your eyes and my conversion,but you are wasting your time,I was converted in 33 a.d. when JESUS was crucified,rose from the dead,and rescued me and all the world from sin,I also converted daily when I arise and remember that I “AM BAPTIZED” that I belong to JESUS and that I am a member of the holy catholic(CHRISTIAN) Church of all Baptized believers. Jesus said in Mark 16:16 “ALL WHO ARE BAPTIZED AND BELIEVE WILL BE SAVED” the apostle Paul said in Romans 10:9-10 " IF WE CONFESS WITH OUR MOUTH “JESUS IS LORD” AND BELIEVE IN OUR HEART THAT GOD RAISED HIM FROM THE DEAD “YOU WILL BE SAVED” FOR IT IS WITH YOUR HEART THAT YOU BELIEVE AND ARE “JUSTIFIED”,AND WITH YOUR MOUTH THAT YOU CONFESS"AND ARE SAVED" Jesus said about “The Church” Matthew 18:20 " FOR WHERE TWO ARE THREE ARE GATHERD IN “MY NAME”, THERE I “AM WITH THEM”. The earliest christians as described in ACTS 3:42-47 " THEY DEVOTED THEMSELVES TO THE APOSTLE,S TEACHING AND TO THE FELLOWSHIP,TO THE BREAKING OF BREAD AND TO PRAYER.EVERYONE WAS FILLED WITH AWE,AND MANY WONDERS AND MIRACULOUS SIGNS WERE DONE BY THE APOSTLES. ALL THE BELIEVERS WERE"TOGETHER’ AND HAD EVERYTHING IN COMMON. SELLING THEIR POSSESSIONS AND GOODS " THEY GAVE TO ANYONE AS HE HAD NEED". EVERY DAY THEY CONTINUED TO MEET TOGETHER IN THE TEMPLE COURTS. THAY BROKE BREAD “IN THEIR HOMES” AND ATE TOGETHER WITH GLAD AND SINCERE HEARTS,PRAISING GOD AND ENJOYING THE FAVOR OF ALL PEOPLE. AND THE LORD ADDED TO THEIR NUMBER DAILY " THOSE WHO WERE BEING SAVED" so thanks for your concern about my soul but quit waisting your time praying for my conversion as I am already a “Baptized” member of the Holy catholic(small c) CHRISTIAN CHURCH of all believers in “JESUS AS LORD” I rejoice and love all “Followers of Jesus” as my Christian brothers and sisters and have a ton of respect for my Roman Catholic Christian believers,I actually look to the catechism of the Roman Catholic Church for moral guidance and respect the bishop of Rome and much of his teachings “except when they go against my informed conscience” personally my “THEOLOGY’ is summed up in MATTHEW 5-7’THE SERMON ON THE MOUNT” and I try to live my life accordingly but often failing miserably,knowing however that the precious "Body and Blood’ of Jesus was shed to rescue me from my sins. In Christian Unity, Amen.

Universalist!

You sound like you are on the right track. If we do not continue to grow every day we are taking a step backwards.

Here is something for you:

The Spiritual Works of Mercy: to admonish the sinner, to instruct the ignorant, to counsel the doubtful, to comfort the sorrowful, to bear wrongs patiently, to forgive all injuries and to pray for the living and the dead.

The Corporal Works of Mercy: to feed the hungry, to give drink to the thirsty, to clothe the naked, to ransom the captive, to harbour the harbourless, to visit the sick and to bury the dead.
These emanate from Matt 25:31-46

In our journey of faith we have to experience constant renewal and constant conversion.

God bless you
Cinette

 

[Hisalone]

OK this is a simple little thing statues of the Saint are not idols. to make my point lets go althe way back to Moses and the ark of the covenant, God gave the design to Mose upon the ark was to be cherubim (angels) were they idols? were they graven images. no the same for statue of the saints. they are nothing more or less than there to represent those that have lived the saintly life for God.

The big problem is people today do not know the difference between prayer and worship. Nowhere in the bible does it say I can only pray to God. Prayer is the act of communication / making your needs known to make a request if we were sitting here together i could look at you and say I pray you sit here and listen with a open mind. I am make a request to you not God and have not broken any commands of God in doing so.

Let m makd ethis real simple. God forbade graven images of which statues and icons are included.
he specifically called for the cherubim to be made, this is not a liscence for all types of statues and icons be made.
St Epiphanius went into one of his churches and saw curtains with the image of Christ painted on them He immediately tore them down.
This is a preactice that has not always been done by Christians that has been changed. Te first century church did not engage in it. Roman Catholics practice a Christianity that is different from the 1st century church.
As for prayers to the departed saints I will provide the quotes of ECF who condemned it but must now get ready for church. why are you so slow to repent?

 

[Hisalone]

I thought this thread was about Protestant Reformation!! About history. Now we are discussing idols? That’s goofy! This thread started so well with intelligent comments and civil and respectful arguments. And now?

We are discussing history.

 

[Cinette]

We are discussing history.

The OP’s questions - Posting #1 -

Why did the Protestant Reformation happen?

Was it justifiable?

The debate began on a very interest note with some excellent participation on the part of certain contributors who seem to have left the thread - pity. I wonder why?