Catholics who know history: please answer

[Hisalone]

I know and I should apologize for going off topic. i just have a really hard time doing so when I see people post things like that the I have to respond.

.

Like what? The truth?
Did you read the quotes of Tertullian and Jerome?
how about
This is pretty plain from St. Epiphanius, Bishop of Constantia, in Cyprus, in his letter to John of Jerusalem, where he declares strongly against this practice: “When I came into a country church of Palestine, called Anablatha, I found a certain cloth hanging over the door, upon which there was a picture painted like that of our Savior or some saint, for I cannot certainly remember whose picture it was. However, seeing the figure of a man in the Church of Christ, contrary to the authority of the Holy Scriptures, I tore it, and gave orders to the church-wardens to wrap it around some corpse and bury it.” And though this Father went too far in asserting the unlawfulness of having any pictures in churches, yet we may fairly infer, that this practice was not customary in Cyprus or Palestine in Epiphanius’ time. See Council of Nicaea 2nd (i.e., the Seventh Ecumenical Council): Epiph. Haeres:

 

[Cinette]

I happened to see if I could find any info online that would help to address the Apostolic Succession issue. A quick search led me to this site:

axioscm.org/general/gen02.php?pageId=208

I know for a fact that my pastor was ordained (and later, consecrated) by Wayne Boosahda, whose name is mentioned in this list. There may have been other bishops involved as well–I wasn’t there, so I don’t really know. As the site indicates, this is a partial listing of the various strands of “geneologies” (for lack of a better word on my part) to be found within the Communion of Convergence Churches. The site specifically mentions the succession through the Patriarch of Antioch (Antiochene Orthodox), the line through which Wayne Boosahda was consecrated.

This is very interesting regarding Apostolic Succession. In this regard I would like to understand the so-called women “priests” who are being “ordained” these days. I belonged to a Parish where a particular nun who worked at the University (she had a phd and was a very good teacher - I heard her a few times). One day it was announced that she had left and was to be “ordained” in Spain. There was mention that she was with a group of Austrian nuns who were also being ordained. A couple of years later she had become a Bishop and was ordaining others (I think) in the US. How is this? If she was ordained by a valid bishop is her ordination valid? How is this regarded - what is it’s standing?

 

[rinnie]

Hello rinnie,
I know of nothing in the NT that prohibibts statues.
I also know nothing in the NT allowing statues. Christianity was born out of the Jewish religion. In that religion statues, icons were strickly forbidden. It was the pagan cultures surrounding the Jews that states and icons were used.
Did you know that early Christian teaching forbade the same?
Did you know that early Christian teaching forbade the praying to saints?

To proceed: Neither the veneration, nor so much as the use of images, was in the very early Christian Church. This is pretty plain from St. Epiphanius, Bishop of Constantia, in Cyprus, in his letter to John of Jerusalem, where he declares strongly against this practice: “When I came into a country church of Palestine, called Anablatha, I found a certain cloth hanging over the door, upon which there was a picture painted like that of our Savior or some saint, for I cannot certainly remember whose picture it was. However, seeing the figure of a man in the Church of Christ, contrary to the authority of the Holy Scriptures, I tore it, and gave orders to the church-wardens to wrap it around some corpse and bury it.” And though this Father went too far in asserting the unlawfulness of having any pictures in churches, yet we may fairly infer, that this practice was not customary in Cyprus or Palestine in Epiphanius’ time. See Council of Nicaea 2nd (i.e., the Seventh Ecumenical Council): Epiph. Haeres: 27, which agrees with the testimony cited.

“Works of art cannot then be sacred and divine.” - Clement of Alexandria (The Stromata, 7:5)

“In a word, if we refuse our homage to statues and frigid images, the very counterpart of their dead originals, with which hawks, and mice, and spiders are so well acquainted, does it not merit praise instead of penalty, that we have rejected what we have come to see is error?” - Tertullian (The Apology, 12)

What did the CCC say? You quoted it yourself, it said we are not breaking the first commandment. According to the RCC we are not. Again you said it yourself. Many thing’s were misunderstood in the OT. That is why we go by the NT. If we went by everything in the OT and stayed with their Religions we would be Jewish, and still reject Jesus Christ as being the Son of God. If we stayed with the OT we would not eat pork. Again for the hundred time we do not worship statues of Jesus. But yes they are in the image of Jesus. In the ot they did not know what God looked like. Do we make god images of animals. etc. No we do not. The Pope is who we listen to, and he said its cool. Now again YOU are saying we are breaking a commandment, the Pope said we are not. Know who do you agree with? I guess what I am asking are you saying the Pope is misleading us. And is telling us to worship false idols. Because it comes down to, Do we as Catholic;s listen to you or the Pope. Now the Pope has the authority of the Holy Spirit passed down which can be traced. Now we come to you, Could you please tell me where your authority come’s from. Because I go by the NT and it says stick to my faith and the leaders who Jesus himself gave authority to. I can find it for you if you like,But right now I am heading for the Church you comdem to Pray to my God Jesus Christ who will be hanging on that Cross when I walk in. He is not a false idol, he exists the bible tells me so. His name is Jesus and he is the Son of Man. He is beautiful and I love him so. Just curious do you put a Manger under your tree at Christmas. Of course you don’t you be breaking the first commandment right?

 

[DebChris]

It is true that the OT prohibited the construction of idols. Kings who tore down these statues were considered righteous.
The First Commandment say “you shall have no craven images before me.”
One of the earliest Council addressed this very issue because of the Eastern icons that were being painted. These stylized paintings lead a person into prayer. Jesus himself is God incarnate. We do not pray to the statue or the painting. Icons and other holy art lead a person into prayer, into worship of the one true God. The council therefore decided that holy pictures, icons, and statues do not violate the First Commandment because the Incarnation.
While I may have pointed to the statues of heroes in public squares when it comes to statues, my mother simply asked, “Do you have pictures of your children in your home?” The statues, pictures, and holy cards that are a part of Catholic tradition depict God’s children, heroes of the faith who provide inspiration. The Saints are not gods. They are humans who faced many of the same temptations that we do. They provide examples of how to respond in similar situations.
After Constantine, temples that once honored Jupiter and other gods were turned into places of Christian worship. The idols that once were placed in the alcoves were replaced by statues of Saints.
There are some denominations, such as the Amish, who totally shun this type of artwork in their own homes. As mentioned earlier, Puritans rejected anything that could be considered Catholic. Many statues, especially those of Mary, were desecrated and destroyed during the Reformation.
As a Catholic, I am asked why Jesus is still hanging on the cross. We remain a resurrection people. The corpus serves to remind us of the cost of redemption. I have personally experienced repulsion of the crucifix followed by embracing the crucifix because of Him who shed His blood for me. I do not have this same experience kneeling before an empty cross.
We look at that time as a literate people. Statues and stained glass windows provided a visual means for uneducated people to learn about their faith.
At no time did Jesus require a person to read in order to be saved. What Jesus said was simply, “Your faith has saved you.”

 

[rinnie]

Also what about when God told Moses to make the image and cure the People. I know the answer but can’t wait to hear what you say?

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

Let m makd ethis real simple. God forbade graven images of which statues and icons are included.
he specifically called for the cherubim to be made, this is not a liscence for all types of statues and icons be made.
St Epiphanius went into one of his churches and saw curtains with the image of Christ painted on them He immediately tore them down.
This is a preactice that has not always been done by Christians that has been changed. Te first century church did not engage in it. Roman Catholics practice a Christianity that is different from the 1st century church.
As for prayers to the departed saints I will provide the quotes of ECF who condemned it but must now get ready for church. why are you so slow to repent?

I think you well need to make it even more simple. As there is a difference between a statue of a saint and a idol(graven image). there are other example in the OT of the use of statues other that that of idols.

As to Prayer to the Saints I ask all living on earth and those living in heaven to pray to God for me as I need all the help I can get.

I also have issue with you questioning mine or anyone else status on repentance. Brother please pull the log out of your eye before telling me about the splinter in mine. this is something I have to remember as well.

By the way I am a cradle catholic that spent most of my life in Protestant circles as most of my family is of one protestant faith or the other including non demons. And never in any did I feel the love and peace that I have as when I attend the Mass and receive the Lord in the Eucharist. I know protestant thinking and I know anti catholic thinking they are not the same thing I will let you decide which you are putting out there.

 

[Hisalone]

I thought this thread was about Protestant Reformation!! About history. Now we are discussing idols? That’s goofy! This thread started so well with intelligent comments and civil and respectful arguments. And now?

Three false practices/doctrines of the RCC that the reformation ended were:
1)graven images
2)praying to dead folks
3)purgatory
all within the parameters of this thread.

 

[rinnie]

Three false practices/doctrines of the RCC that the reformation ended were:
1)graven images
2)praying to dead folks
3)purgatory
all within the parameters of this thread.

Again lets start with number 1 graven images

Please explain

ex 25 18-20 two gold angels

Exekiel 41 17-18 graven carved images

numbers God told Moses to make a Statue (fiery Serpent) to heal people.

God not only allowed Statues he commanded them.

Please explain these to me, ANd how we are breaking his commandments. You never seem to answer these? Like I said if you are going to condem us, explain the above. Thank-you

 

[Hisalone]

What did the CCC say? You quoted it yourself, it said we are not breaking the first commandment. According to the RCC we are not. Again you said it yourself. Many thing’s were misunderstood in the OT. That is why we go by the NT. If we went by everything in the OT and stayed with their Religions we would be Jewish, and still reject Jesus Christ as being the Son of God. If we stayed with the OT we would not eat pork. Again for the hundred time we do not worship statues of Jesus. But yes they are in the image of Jesus. In the ot they did not know what God looked like. Do we make god images of animals. etc. No we do not. The Pope is who we listen to, and he said its cool. Now again YOU are saying we are breaking a commandment, the Pope said we are not. Know who do you agree with? I guess what I am asking are you saying the Pope is misleading us. And is telling us to worship false idols. Because it comes down to, Do we as Catholic;s listen to you or the Pope. Now the Pope has the authority of the Holy Spirit passed down which can be traced. Now we come to you, Could you please tell me where your authority come’s from. Because I go by the NT and it says stick to my faith and the leaders who Jesus himself gave authority to. I can find it for you if you like,But right now I am heading for the Church you comdem to Pray to my God Jesus Christ who will be hanging on that Cross when I walk in. He is not a false idol, he exists the bible tells me so. His name is Jesus and he is the Son of Man. He is beautiful and I love him so. Just curious do you put a Manger under your tree at Christmas. Of course you don’t you be breaking the first commandment right?

Rinnie I ask that you read Deutaronomy 4 and then the Catholic Catechism, they do not say the same thing. You either believe Gods word or the word of man. It not me vs the pope. It is the word of God vs the word of man.
Jesus said I didnt come to do away with the law. The law He was refering to was not the Ten Commandments but what the Jews called the law which is the first five books of the OT.
rinnie someone has misinformed you we live by the complete scripture not just the NT. The NT does speak of dietary laws in that Jesus said that it is not what man puts into his mouth but what comes out of his mouth also Peters dream speaks to this.
rinnie if you insist on graven images even though the bible speaks against them it is your choice.
Jesus is beautifull He is not some statue but a livving Spirit who is inside those that beleive.

 

[Hisalone]

Also what about when God told Moses to make the image and cure the People. I know the answer but can’t wait to hear what you say?

God instructed Moses to make a serpent, God never instructed you to make statues of Christ or the saints. Cant you see the difference?

 

[rinnie]

Three false practices/doctrines of the RCC that the reformation ended were:
1)graven images
2)praying to dead folks
3)purgatory
all within the parameters of this thread.

2 Praying do dead folks as you put it

Please explain this

1 tim 2:5 In particular we should ask for intercession of those christians in heaven who have alredy had thier sanctification completed for the prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects (jas 5:16)

Please explain ? See’s to me the sanctification kinda clears up purgatory too. But again I am waiting for your response?

 

[Hisalone]

It is true that the OT prohibited the construction of idols. Kings who tore down these statues were considered righteous.
The First Commandment say “you shall have no craven images before me.”
One of the earliest Council addressed this very issue because of the Eastern icons that were being painted. These stylized paintings lead a person into prayer. Jesus himself is God incarnate. We do not pray to the statue or the painting. Icons and other holy art lead a person into prayer, into worship of the one true God. The council therefore decided that holy pictures, icons, and statues do not violate the First Commandment because the Incarnation.
While I may have pointed to the statues of heroes in public squares when it comes to statues, my mother simply asked, “Do you have pictures of your children in your home?” The statues, pictures, and holy cards that are a part of Catholic tradition depict God’s children, heroes of the faith who provide inspiration. The Saints are not gods. They are humans who faced many of the same temptations that we do. They provide examples of how to respond in similar situations.
After Constantine, temples that once honored Jupiter and other gods were turned into places of Christian worship. The idols that once were placed in the alcoves were replaced by statues of Saints.
There are some denominations, such as the Amish, who totally shun this type of artwork in their own homes. As mentioned earlier, Puritans rejected anything that could be considered Catholic. Many statues, especially those of Mary, were desecrated and destroyed during the Reformation.
As a Catholic, I am asked why Jesus is still hanging on the cross. We remain a resurrection people. The corpus serves to remind us of the cost of redemption. I have personally experienced repulsion of the crucifix followed by embracing the crucifix because of Him who shed His blood for me. I do not have this same experience kneeling before an empty cross.
We look at that time as a literate people. Statues and stained glass windows provided a visual means for uneducated people to learn about their faith.
At no time did Jesus require a person to read in order to be saved. What Jesus said was simply, “Your faith has saved you.”

Deb you dont address any of the concerns I have spoken of.

 

[Hisalone]

I think you well need to make it even more simple. As there is a difference between a statue of a saint and a idol(graven image). there are other example in the OT of the use of statues other that that of idols.

As to Prayer to the Saints I ask all living on earth and those living in heaven to pray to God for me as I need all the help I can get.

I also have issue with you questioning mine or anyone else status on repentance. Brother please pull the log out of your eye before telling me about the splinter in mine. this is something I have to remember as well.

By the way I am a cradle catholic that spent most of my life in Protestant circles as most of my family is of one protestant faith or the other including non demons. And never in any did I feel the love and peace that I have as when I attend the Mass and receive the Lord in the Eucharist. I know protestant thinking and I know anti catholic thinking they are not the same thing I will let you decide which you are putting out there.

My God is a Holy God anything that impairs on holiness is to be put aside.

 

[Hisalone]

Again lets start with number 1 graven images

Please explain

ex 25 18-20 two gold angels

Exekiel 41 17-18 graven carved images

numbers God told Moses to make a Statue (fiery Serpent) to heal people.

God not only allowed Statues he commanded them.

Please explain these to me, ANd how we are breaking his commandments. You never seem to answer these? Like I said if you are going to condem us, explain the above. Thank-you

God did not say I command you to mke a serpent and by the way make any other graven image you choose. He commanded to make one but did not open the door for all.

 

[rinnie]

God did not say I command you to mke a serpent and by the way make any other graven image you choose. He commanded to make one but did not open the door for all.

I am sorry God commanded all of the above. And you need to go back and read num 21:8-9 It was a statue is was made of bronze set on a pole.

And you never answered me about Christmas. Does your family or Church have a manger scene? If so do you have statues in the Manger or is it empty?

 

[Hisalone]

2 Praying do dead folks as you put it

Please explain this

1 tim 2:5 In particular we should ask for intercession of those christians in heaven who have alredy had thier sanctification completed for the prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects (jas 5:16)

Please explain ? See’s to me the sanctification kinda clears up purgatory too. But again I am waiting for your response?

1 Tim
1 First of all, then, I urge that entreaties R65 and prayers, petitions and thanksgivings, be made on behalf of all men, 2 for R66 kings and all who are in authority, F14 so that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity.

God wants us to pray for all those who are in authority over us. This incldes our bosses at work up to the president of the US.

James 5
16 Therefore, confess R210 your sins to one another, and pray for one another so that you may be healed. R211 The R212 effective prayer F89 of a righteous man can accomplish much.

We are to confess our sins/our faults to one another. When is the last time your priest confessed his sins to you? When is the last time you confessed your sins to the lady in the pew ahead of you?
AA has this down pretty well. In their meetings each person confesses to those others at that meeting their faults/sins.

 

[Hisalone]

I am sorry God commanded all of the above. And you need to go back and read num 21:8-9 It was a statue is was made of bronze set on a pole.

And you never answered me about Christmas. Does your family or Church have a manger scene? If so do you have statues in the Manger or is it empty?

No I do not have a manger.
Why do you celebrate the birth of Jesus on a pagan holiday?

 

[rinnie]

My God is a Holy God anything that impairs on holiness is to be put aside.

My God is also a Holy God, and there is nothing that my Church the RCC does that impairs on holiness. You claim all of these thing’s but you have not backed on thing up you have claimed.

 

[Hisalone]

My God is also a Holy God, and there is nothing that my Church the RCC does that impairs on holiness. You claim all of these thing’s but you have not backed on thing up you have claimed.

rinnie did you read Jerome? did you read Tertullian?
I have proved that the CC teaching on graven images is different than what scripture says.
If for you that is nothing then again you have chosen to believe men and not God.

 

[rinnie]

No I do not have a manger.
Why do you celebrate the birth of Jesus on a pagan holiday?

Oh now celebrating Christmas and celebrating the Birth of My Lord is considered a Pagan Holiday. Then I guess you are calling me a pagan also and my God Jesus Christ a Pagan God also? Because on Christmas eve and Christmas day around the world on Dec 24 and 24 is considered the birth Of Jesus Christ our King! Is that what you are saying?