Catholics who know history: please answer

[rinnie]

Hisalone my love. here is my proof that the Church was indeed catholic.

The CC is found in the letter to St Ignatius to Smyaceans written about the year 110. The words run where so the Bishop shall appear let the people be even as where Jesus be there is the Universal (Katholic) Church.

Nothing in there about N D Church. Now waiting for your response. Good Day!

 

[Cinette]

It is true that this is a Catholic web site however this form is a nonCatholic forum. I wonder why people come here to discuss Catholism when there are other forums to do that on. I am not an authority on Cristianity I am one who seeks what is true. I found the Roman Church to be lacking that is why I ourneyed elsewhere. I have respect for Catholics, virtualy my whole family is Catholic. I do not respectRoman Catholicism. I believe it has falsely taught.

You are perfectly entitled to your beliefs. I think that you are not very well informed about the Catholic Church. It is always advisable to keep an open mind. Like that you can grow.

Incidentally did you see the title of the thread? It says “Catholics who know history: please answer” So if Catholics should be on Catholic forums then how on earth can they respond?

I have seen you on other threads and always noticed how aggressive and disrespectful you can be.

To debate and exchange views is interesting and especially so when there is respect.

It doesn’t say much about a person who does not show respect for another.

OK now - shall we start again?

 

[rinnie]

It is true that this is a Catholic web site however this form is a nonCatholic forum. I wonder why people come here to discuss Catholism when there are other forums to do that on. I am not an authority on Cristianity I am one who seeks what is true. I found the Roman Church to be lacking that is why I ourneyed elsewhere. I have respect for Catholics, virtualy my whole family is Catholic. I do not respectRoman Catholicism. I believe it has falsely taught.

Noted! Buy you still have not proven one thing yet. You keep saying that, but have not to date proven one thing. Now we do agree you are not an authority (see we do agree on something) just kidding, anyway and have proven that you have no respect for Roman Catholicism, which I find so sad in my heart, but now I will wait for you to show me where My Church has led me astray. Take your time, you have the scripture.

 

[Hisalone]

No I am not young but thank you, But its your comments that don’t hurt my feeling’s its lies that hurt my Church.

But Now I am quite calmer and will begin again.

In post 328 you claim that Jesus is not a statue, Where did I ever say Jesus was a statue. I said in the OT God did not reveal himself yet, but in the NT he did.
Im confused, is the OT God different from the NT God?A statue of Jesus is not a False God, You ignored that. When you look at a picture of Jesus you associate that will being God. Because Jesus is. Where is a picture of Jesus considered Idol worship is Jesus not God, and did he not reveal himself to all. I gave you all the scripture where indeed it shows he did,

rinnie the prohibition against images incldes that of God.

Second I showed you scripture in Jas 5:16 to prove that we can prove the righteous man has great power. which proved purgatory because you cannot get into heaven without being cleansed, since nothing unrighteous will touch heaven, and it James it tells us it has great powers in its effects.

Rinnie your making great leaps here. I see now that I didnt understand your reasoning. When I see Jas 5:16 I see that a righteous man (what is a righteous man) can fervently efectively pray producing results. I dont think of a saint that has passed away I think of someone here on earth. Paul earlier in the same passage instructs the reader to pray. Is he talking of a dead saint or someone who is reading his epistle? rinnie I believe we are made holy by the blood of Christ and we can enter heaven because of His blood. The “good” thief entered paradise the day he died a man who sinned his whole life and we can debate what paradie is but one thing we know it is not is purgatory.
In Post 333 you claim okay God did give Moses just this once permission to make a statue. You again ignored ex. the gold angels, and exekiel graven carved images.

Now one minute you say its forbidden a sin, then well okay Moses was okay. No it does not work that way.

Why doesnt it?
You said in the OT its not okay, not for anyone, then how can it be okay for Moses.

Because God gave specific instructions which Moses followed. Did the Jews go ahead and make statues and put them in their holmes and synagogues after God instructed Moses to make the cherabum? NO they understood the prohibition.

So the Catholics are right up there with Moses now. He’s either getting to or he isn’t. Because according to you the OT said no, there is no excuse.

No offense please Im not trying to be mean, but you make no sense, You tell me I have no truth, to follow your truth but you can’t show me this truth.

In rev 8:3-4 Its plain as day the angel with a golden censer and he was given much incense to mingle with the PRAYER OF ALL THE SAINTS …and the smoke of the incense rose with the Prayers of the Saints from the hand of the angel before God. You never answer these. you said the saints are dead and so is their prayers. then explain this scripture.

The saints in heaven and the saints on earth.

The saints in heaven are dead in body alive in spirit.
Why did not the Jews pray to Moses or Abraham?
we were never to talk to those who had passed. The story of Saul and the witch of Ednor trying to conjure up Samuel he was rebuked. The 1st century christians did not pray to others.When I can I will locate the quotes.

Psalm 103 we pray Bless the Lord o you his angels you mighty ones who do his word hearkening to the voice of his word, bless the lord of all host HIS MINISTERS WHO DO HIS WILL.

and…? Do we ask angels to pray for us?

Now you say Peter and Paul did not start the Catholic Church. It was a ND Church.

John 13:36 21:18 Jesus predicts Peters death. Peter was martyred at Rome in 67 A.D. Several hundred years of papal successors were also martyred. (Where is this non dem. Church in Rome Peter started? Why if Papal successors were martyred can the Pope today prove succession and be in a RCC. Why can these lies my Church feeds me be traced back to Peter? And not your Church? Now show me where your church was traced back to Peter?

Now I asked you once and I was ignored I will ask again, who is your teacher. Jesus felt that we needed them, that we must see them, and talk to them and learn from them, or he would have just left us all with the Power of the Holy Spirit. But he did not do that. He left us the Apostles who can be traced back to the CC. Now who are your teachers, where is their authority to teach the truth? Our Priests, and Bishops and Pope have the power given to them before Jesus died to pass on to eachother. Where did you or your teachers get theirs?

I will answer the rest when I have more time.

 

[rinnie]

I also have to go but will get back. But real quick you are way out in left field here again. In samuel King Saul consults a Spirit for advise. That is forbidden. Where does us praying for the dead, and asking the dead to pray for us in any way or form be considered asking them for advice. If I ask you to go to God and pray for me, or you ask me thats Giving each ther advise? Again you are twisting the faith again? How could asking anyone dead or alive to pray for you be even anything like asking a Spirit to guide you. The only SPirt we are to call upon in the RCC is the Holy Spirit to guide us. We can ask for anyone to pray for us but not guide us. If we prayed for the dead to guide us would tht not be replacing God. In our Faith thats breaking a commandment. We can pray only to God, and we can only ask the angels, saints dead and alive to pray for us, to go to God with us or for us. And if you are going to jump on the Blessed Mother again sure she is a good role model to follow but she also followed one person God. So again how in the world do fortune tellers tie in with prayer to God. You got me on that one.

 

[rinnie]

And not that I can speak for the jews but the reason they did not pray to Moses or Abraham is probally the reason we don’t because Mose or Abraham isn’t God. Now did they ask for Moses or Abraham to pray for them, You will have to ask a Jew that? But I don’t see why they wouldn’t?

 

[steve_b]

Originally Posted by rinnie forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cad/viewpost.gif

Hisalone response to rinnie, in red

*No I am not young but thank you, But its your comments that don’t hurt my feeling’s its lies that hurt my Church. *

But Now I am quite calmer and will begin again.

*In post 328 you claim that Jesus is not a statue, Where did I ever say Jesus was a statue. I said in the OT God did not reveal himself yet, but in the NT he did. *
*Im confused, is the OT God different from the NT God?*A statue of Jesus is not a False God, You ignored that. When you look at a picture of Jesus you associate that will being God. Because Jesus is. Where is a picture of Jesus considered Idol worship is Jesus not God, and did he not reveal himself to all. I gave you all the scripture where indeed it shows he did,

rinnie the prohibition against images incldes that of God.

The OT people hadn’t seen God. Therefore you can’t make an image of God. NOT so in the NT. Jesus is God made man. God became incarnate. Therefore we have seen GOD

alone:

Second I showed you scripture in Jas 5:16 to prove that we can prove the righteous man has great power. which proved purgatory because you cannot get into heaven without being cleansed, since nothing unrighteous will touch heaven, and it James it tells us it has great powers in its effects.

Rinnie your making great leaps here. I see now that I didnt understand your reasoning. When I see Jas 5:16 I see that a righteous man (what is a righteous man) can fervently efectively pray producing results. I dont think of a saint that has passed away I think of someone here on earth. Paul earlier in the same passage instructs the reader to pray. Is he talking of a dead saint or someone who is reading his epistle? rinnie I believe we are made holy by the blood of Christ and we can enter heaven because of His blood. The “good” thief entered paradise the day he died a man who sinned his whole life and we can debate what paradie is but one thing we know it is not is purgatory.

1. • People in heaven by definition are saints. AND they are perfectly righteous. If anybody on earth is righteous, how are YOU going to know THAT? Yet I’ll bet you ask all sorts of people to pray for you…right?
   • Christ shed His blood for EVERYONE. Does that mean EVERYBODY is holy, or will enter heaven?
   
   alone:
   

   In Post 333 you claim okay God did give Moses just this once permission to make a statue. You again ignored ex. the gold angels, and exekiel graven carved images.
   
   Now one minute you say its forbidden a sin, then well okay Moses was okay. No it does not work that way.
   
   Why doesnt it?
   You said in the OT its not okay, not for anyone, then how can it be okay for Moses.
   
   Because God gave specific instructions which Moses followed. Did the Jews go ahead and make statues and put them in their holmes and synagogues after God instructed Moses to make the cherabum? NO they understood the prohibition.

   Quote the prohibition again. Then ask yourself
   1. • is there a grandfather clause exempting Cherabum from being made?
      • How about the snake on a pole people were to look upon if they wanted a cure?
        What is the prohibition really against?
      
      alone:
      

      In rev 8:3-4 Its plain as day the angel with a golden censer and he was given much incense to mingle with the PRAYER OF ALL THE SAINTS …and the smoke of the incense rose with the Prayers of the Saints from the hand of the angel before God. You never answer these. you said the saints are dead and so is their prayers. then explain this scripture.
      
      The saints in heaven and the saints on earth.
      
      The saints in heaven are dead in body alive in spirit.
      Why did not the Jews pray to Moses or Abraham?
      we were never to talk to those who had passed. The story of Saul and the witch of Ednor trying to conjure up Samuel he was rebuked. The 1st century christians did not pray to others.When I can I will locate the quotes.

      What about the story Jesus told of the Rich man and Lazarus? Both died before ever being taught of Jesus. They lived and died by the OT.
      • Are they both Jews? Yep!
      • Is the rich man and Lazarus, and Abraham dead in body but alive in spirit? Yep!
      • Is their story Jesus tells, in this life or the next? The next.
      • Is the Rich man asking(praying) Abraham for help? Yep!
      • Does Jesus say this is NOT allowed? Nope!
        Jesus teaches that once someone is in hell, no one can help them. Heaven is not open yet either, because Jesus has not died, resurrected, and ascended back to heaven, therefore, all understanding with HIS hearers of this story is still with OT understanding. But notice, even in the next life, the rich man was petitioning Abraham who he would have known and revered as a Jew. If he was prohibited from petitioning him in this life as a Jew, he never would have been asking for his help in the next life either.
      
      alone:
      

      Psalm 103 we pray Bless the Lord o you his angels you mighty ones who do his word hearkening to the voice of his word, bless the lord of all host HIS MINISTERS WHO DO HIS WILL.
      
      and…? Do we ask angels to pray for us?

      Why NOT? Do you believe in guardian angels?

 

[DebChris]

Hi Rinnnie,

… All this may seem like it’s getting way off the original thread, but I wonder if some of the same emotions and motives are involved today as they were back in early Christianity, the 1000’s, and the 1500’s.

I was thinking the same thing regarding the emotions of those living during the turbulent years of the Reformation.

CCC2501…Arising from talent given by the Creator and from man’s own effort, art is a form of practical wisdom, uniting knowledge and skill, to give form to the truth of reality in a language accessible to sight or hearing…

The rosary was developed by pious peasants and accepted by the hierarchy as authentic worship, not the other way around.
As has been mentioned earlier, the populace was uneducated and illiterate. John of the Cross, in fact, refers to the congregation reading the priest as he reads the gospel since most did not have access to the written word except through the Mass.
Picture the serfs working in their fields while listening to monks recite the Liturgy of the Hours with the richness of the psalms. The reality is that the serf did not have time to pray the psalms in the same way despite his/her desire. He picked up stones and counted as he prayed the Our Father, the Petra Nostra. Over time, the stones were threaded to form the rosary that we carry with us today. Decades of the Hail Mary, the angel’s greeting, were placed between the Our Father. The practice spread by means of the Dominicans.

Again, as previously mentioned when the rosary is properly prayed it involves meditating on the life of Christ. Last year I learned a way that increases the meditative aspect of the rosary. As I pray the Hail Mary, I add a single word or phrase after "blessed is the fruit of your womb, Jesus.
For instance:
Annunciation-- Blessed is the fruit of your womb, Jesus Incarnate.
Nativity–Blessed is the fruit of your womb, Jesus Emmanuel
The Crowning with thorns–Blessed is the fruit of your womb, Jesus, King of kings.

If somebody asks, I will post the word/phrase I use for each mystery. It would need to be a post by itself because of word count restrictions.

 

[Realcatholicgk]

**Hi Hisalone,
How are you? **

It is true that this is a Catholic web site however this form is a nonCatholic forum. I wonder why people come here to discuss Catholism when there are other forums to do that on.

**Well the Name of the thread might give you a hint! **

I am not an authority on Cristianity

**
Obviously :whacky: **

I am one who seeks what is true. I found the Roman Church to be lacking that is why I journeyed elsewhere.

**That happens. Many people are lead away because they don’t understand that their eternal soul is more important then their selfish concerns. The Devil has used pride and “the quest for truth” since adam and eve to win souls from god. Why wouldn’t he also pick on you? **

I have respect for Catholics, virtualy my whole family is Catholic. I do not respectRoman Catholicism.

**
I know exactly what you mean. I have the utmost respect for people who are Protestant. I even like the Mormon’s live style, and many of my own relatives are Buddist. I really like a lot about their spirituality. The only thing is I do not respect any of those false religions**!

They all teach lies and untruths. This is not my personal opinion. Jesus Christ church tells us that! If they don’t teach the real truth revealed by Jesus Christ to His church, unchanged by Kings, queens, or people with gold cloth and invisible writings, they are teaching lies.
If they think that the day of the week that you worship God on, or that words in a book which have been twisted, changes, and distorted are more important then what Jesus actually teaches, they are teaching lies.
If they think statues are graven images when the bible and dictionaries show the differen, they are teaching lies.
If they don’t think the Pope is the leader of Christianity, they are teaching lies.
If they say you can’t pray to saints, they are teaching lies.
If they think they can obtain eternal life without eating the real body and drinking the real blood of Christ, just like Jesus Himself commanded, they are telling lies.
If they think drinking wine is wrong, even though Jesus Himself drank it and commanded us to, and they substitute grape juice, they are telling lies.
If they think the real Eucharust can offered to them by anyone but a direct successor of the first apostles, they are telling lies.
If they don’t believe in the trinity, they are telling lies.
If their church started in 1517AD, or later, they are telling lies.

How could I respect their churches? The people are good people, I respect them if they attempt to live a ‘real’ christian life. It is their false beliefs that are the problem. Their churches pretent to teach them what jesus wants and they pretent that they are christians while refusing to follow the teaching of the christian church extablished by Jesus Christ Himself 2,000 years ago! Now I ask you how dumb is that?

I believe it has falsely taught.

**I agree! Maybe it has at times. Your point? What about all the lies above?
The Catholic church which Jesus established has humans attempting to do God’s will. We are all sinners. But the Church has also been corrected on the things it lied about, and corrected them. And through the sacraments we can be forgiven our personal shortcoming and receive the grace to obtain salvation! Praise to Jesus!

But the Catholic Church has never, will never, and could never teach falsely about matters of Faith. The Holy Spirit was left here to guide the church in matters of Faith! God can’t teach falsely! Your salvation would be assured if you follow the treachings of the Catholic church!

Open your eyes. your eternal soul’s salvation depends on you realizing that there is only one God, one church, one way into heaven, just like the scriptures tell us!! Through Jesus Christ!

God Bless **

 

[Realcatholicgk]

**Small joke break!****National Alert Announcement

Due to the recent economic crisis, bailouts, budget cuts and the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil. The Light at the End of the Tunnel has been turned off.

We apologize for any inconvenience.**

 

[DebChris]

I wanted to include this with my last post.

CCC2502…Genuine sacred art draws man to adoration, to prayer, and to the love of God, Creator and Savior, the Holy One and Sanctifier.

If the Church began at Pentecost with the Descent of the Holy Spirit, how can its teachings be false? To say that the Church which God established is false is to call God a liar, and that is totally unacceptable.
It is true that the Church is comprised of humans, individuals who have not been faithful to the teachings of God. Does the fallibility of man nullify the Word of God as taught to His Apostles and safeguarded by the Holy Spirit? What happens within a denomination that has broken with the Church in Rome when its leadership is found to be in error? I have known too many people to church shop because they disagreed with something that was preached, because they did were “not being fed.”
I do know that God works in the lives of individuals who are not members of the Catholic Church. Pentecostal denominations arose because their non-Catholic churches did not recognize the working of the Holy Spirit in the charisms expressed. The Catholic Church on the other hand has accepted and encouraged their expression.
If the Pope is anti-Bible, why is he telling his Bishops to encourage the laity to become more familiar with Scripture, to read the Bible more than they may have in the past?

Mennonites who rejected Apostolic succession, believing an illiterate peasant who has received the gift of the Spirit is a better interpreter of scripture than a learned theologian who lacks the Spirit recognized the need for communal discernment due to questionable actions and prophecies of some individuals.
While Mennonites depend on congregational discernment, Catholics defer to magisterial discernment, the teaching authority of the Church.

[The first Christians] devoted themselves to the teaching of the apostles and to the communal life, to the breaking of the bread and to the prayers (Acts 2:42).

 

[benedictus2]

I see that now, when the comment was made about Christmas I saw that clear as Daylight. I did my best to show scripture to back up my faith, but when I was ignnored and never answered I should have seen it comming sooner. But I did my best to stand up for my faith, and now it is up to God to do the rest. But you are right, they will fight with us, sometimes I really want to give up. But you know what, The more they say bad thing’s about our faith and lie about it, the more I actually learn. And I have said this time after time but the more lies they tell, the more truth we can reveal through them. Sometimes I just have to learn to keep being kind, and give them Mercy I want from God, But when you see them butcher our faith and lie about it, It becomes so hard sometimes. But pray for me that I can become kinder in my responses. Thank-you though this really helped me. Have a great holiday season, and wonderful Christmas and New Year,

And that is so true. As I have said in previous posts, those who converted to Catholicism (barring a mystical experience) did so after extensive reading.

I think of Thomas Howard who certainly put up a good fight (10 years) but in the end had to acknowledge the truth of the Catholic Church.

But what do you do with someone who refuse to study. Who even as it is right there before their eyes refuse to read. For me it is like Lazarus prefering the darkness of the tomb becuase the light outside (after being in darkness for that long) is too bright to bear.

According to Hisalone, a 10000 word document is TOO MUCH to read.

 

[benedictus2]

It is true that this is a Catholic web site however this form is a nonCatholic forum. I wonder why people come here to discuss Catholism when there are other forums to do that on. I am not an authority on Cristianity I am one who seeks what is true. I found the Roman Church to be lacking that is why I ourneyed elsewhere. I have respect for Catholics, virtualy my whole family is Catholic. I do not respectRoman Catholicism. I believe it has falsely taught.

Hey, that is fine. I think you can take flak same way you give so that’s all cool.

The only problem with this post is about “seeking what is true”.
That, I doubt very much.

 

[benedictus2]

The Catholic Church has no right to change or to superceed scripture. Kinda what Jesus told the Pharasees.

Okay I am replying to this post alone as I have not read any other responses.

The Catholic Church came before scripture so bear that in mind. She preceeded scripture.

The Church has not changed scripture. The Church has EXPOUNDED scripture.

 

[rinnie]

Hisalone Quote: CC has no right to superceed scripture kinda what Jesus told Pharasees. My right hand every time I talk to you this comes to mind. Remember how you keep quoting OT even though Jesus came and told us what it really means. I wanted to quote that to you so bad. All I kept thinking is how you quote OT and dont do it right and the pharasees kept doing it to Jesus. But remember what he said You will listen to Abraham but you will not listen to me. I am God, I am the God of Abraham. But they still to this day refuse to believe them. No offense even if you were Jewish I could understand. But you claim you are not Protestant, Catholic, Jewish, Mormon. You are just a Christian, You what hand pick your religion. Please don’t be insulted just help me to understand what a non dem. Church is. Again who do you follow, I am lost now. You say you follow Jesus but you deny his Mother. You say you follow Jesus but you never did tell me who your teacher is. I asked if you claim to have the Power of the Holy Spirit you won’t answer. I am just confused on who you do follow. What do you do in church, Like kinda whatever turns you on that Sunday or what. I don’t get it? I am just not picking up what you are laying down here. You condem my Faith, but then when I try to defend it you ignore me. I am not angry now i swear, just confused. Who teaches you the gospel, I am kinda seeing now, read the bible, take it any way you want, and you are right. If I am wrong please correct me. If i am right I am really scared for you. Who is your teacher of the faith?

 

[hadassahjones]

I can’t possibly find the time to read all twenty-seven pages, but I read the first few, and I’ll settle with giving an answer to the OP.

I don’t know a lot about the Reformation, but the time period is around that of one of my favorites: Tudor England, so I’ve read some.

Besides the selling of indulgences, it was illegal for the Bible to be printed or read in English, or for Mass to be said in English. This allowed for the political corruption of the church, as the higher-ups were given too much power, since the ignorant masses, who had no knowledge of Latin, were unable to read the Scriptures for themselves or give anything but rote responses. In this time period, the church had become a political machine, fueled by the need of the bishops, archbishops, and cardinals to pander to the king, and the trading of political favors for ascension to Pope (votes). Cardinal Wolsey is one major figure whom many may recognize.

What I know primarily deals with Henry the Eighth, who at first wrote inflamed pamphlets against Martin Luther, then later allowed his second wife, Anne Boleyn, to read Lutheran and heretical texts, and also began to side with Luther when it suited his ends. Luther would certainly have disagreed with Henry’s reasonings.

The church really split two ways—to Luther’s side, as well as the Anglican side, which was purely political, a facsimile of the RCC, with Henry at its head so that he could have his divorce.

The Reformation was founded on ideas that certainly needed to be brought to fruition with the Catholic Church, and have since done so. Unfortunately, the political and religious climate at the time was not such as to allow this to be done within the confines of the church, as the magesterium had disintegrated into greedy, vastly wealthy bishops and cardinals who had forgotten their vows, some of whom were wealthier than the kings that they served. They would never have allowed this, and would have killed those advocating change under the banner of heresy. Thus, it had to be taken outside of the church, much to humanity, and Christianity’s, detriment.

 

[rinnie]

I can’t possibly find the time to read all twenty-seven pages, but I read the first few, and I’ll settle with giving an answer to the OP.

I don’t know a lot about the Reformation, but the time period is around that of one of my favorites: Tudor England, so I’ve read some.

Besides the selling of indulgences, it was illegal for the Bible to be printed or read in English, or for Mass to be said in English. This allowed for the political corruption of the church, as the higher-ups were given too much power, since the ignorant masses, who had no knowledge of Latin, were unable to read the Scriptures for themselves or give anything but rote responses. In this time period, the church had become a political machine, fueled by the need of the bishops, archbishops, and cardinals to pander to the king, and the trading of political favors for ascension to Pope (votes). Cardinal Wolsey is one major figure whom many may recognize.

What I know primarily deals with Henry the Eighth, who at first wrote inflamed pamphlets against Martin Luther, then later allowed his second wife, Anne Boleyn, to read Lutheran and heretical texts, and also began to side with Luther when it suited his ends. Luther would certainly have disagreed with Henry’s reasonings.

The church really split two ways—to Luther’s side, as well as the Anglican side, which was purely political, a facsimile of the RCC, with Henry at its head so that he could have his divorce.

The Reformation was founded on ideas that certainly needed to be brought to fruition with the Catholic Church, and have since done so. Unfortunately, the political and religious climate at the time was not such as to allow this to be done within the confines of the church, as the magesterium had disintegrated into greedy, vastly wealthy bishops and cardinals who had forgotten their vows, some of whom were wealthier than the kings that they served. They would never have allowed this, and would have killed those advocating change under the banner of heresy. Thus, it had to be taken outside of the church, much to humanity, and Christianity’s, detriment.

Ok I will get to you tommorow!

 

[Hisalone]

Now you say Peter and Paul did not start the Catholic Church. It was a ND Church.

The 1st century church was not Catholic as we know Catholic today. It was not a denomination but called simply “the way”

John 13:36 21:18 Jesus predicts Peters death. Peter was martyred at Rome in 67 A.D. Several hundred years of papal successors were also martyred. (Where is this non dem. Church in Rome Peter started? Why if Papal successors were martyred can the Pope today prove succession and be in a RCC. Why can these lies my Church feeds me be traced back to Peter? And not your Church? Now show me where your church was traced back to Peter?

Did Peter think of himself as pope? There is no indication in his writings or anywhere else, the concept of pope came about at a latter date.
Was Peter a leader of the early christians? Without a doubt. Did he sit on a chair and pontificate? Hardly. But that is exactly what latter popes did, sit on a chair and pontificate.
I trace my lineage back to Abraham. Abraham is the father of all who step out in faith.
Now I asked you once and I was ignored I will ask again, who is your teacher. Jesus felt that we needed them, that we must see them, and talk to them and learn from them, or he would have just left us all with the Power of the Holy Spirit. But he did not do that. He left us the Apostles who can be traced back to the CC. Now who are your teachers, where is their authority to teach the truth? Our Priests, and Bishops and Pope have the power given to them before Jesus died to pass on to eachother. Where did you or your teachers get theirs?

 

[John1]

I can’t possibly find the time to read all twenty-seven pages, but I read the first few, and I’ll settle with giving an answer to the OP.

I don’t know a lot about the Reformation, but the time period is around that of one of my favorites: Tudor England, so I’ve read some.

Besides the selling of indulgences, it was illegal for the Bible to be printed or read in English, or for Mass to be said in English. This allowed for the political corruption of the church, as the higher-ups were given too much power, since the ignorant masses, who had no knowledge of Latin, were unable to read the Scriptures for themselves or give anything but rote responses. In this time period, the church had become a political machine, fueled by the need of the bishops, archbishops, and cardinals to pander to the king, and the trading of political favors for ascension to Pope (votes). Cardinal Wolsey is one major figure whom many may recognize.

What I know primarily deals with Henry the Eighth, who at first wrote inflamed pamphlets against Martin Luther, then later allowed his second wife, Anne Boleyn, to read Lutheran and heretical texts, and also began to side with Luther when it suited his ends. Luther would certainly have disagreed with Henry’s reasonings.

The church really split two ways—to Luther’s side, as well as the Anglican side, which was purely political, a facsimile of the RCC, with Henry at its head so that he could have his divorce.

The Reformation was founded on ideas that certainly needed to be brought to fruition with the Catholic Church, and have since done so. Unfortunately, the political and religious climate at the time was not such as to allow this to be done within the confines of the church, as the magesterium had disintegrated into greedy, vastly wealthy bishops and cardinals who had forgotten their vows, some of whom were wealthier than the kings that they served. They would never have allowed this, and would have killed those advocating change under the banner of heresy. Thus, it had to be taken outside of the church, much to humanity, and Christianity’s, detriment.

Well written, thanks for the information.

 

[Hisalone]

I also have to go but will get back. But real quick you are way out in left field here again. In samuel King Saul consults a Spirit for advise. That is forbidden. Where does us praying for the dead, and asking the dead to pray for us in any way or form be considered asking them for advice. If I ask you to go to God and pray for me, or you ask me thats Giving each ther advise? Again you are twisting the faith again? How could asking anyone dead or alive to pray for you be even anything like asking a Spirit to guide you. The only SPirt we are to call upon in the RCC is the Holy Spirit to guide us. We can ask for anyone to pray for us but not guide us. If we prayed for the dead to guide us would tht not be replacing God. In our Faith thats breaking a commandment. We can pray only to God, and we can only ask the angels, saints dead and alive to pray for us, to go to God with us or for us. And if you are going to jump on the Blessed Mother again sure she is a good role model to follow but she also followed one person God. So again how in the world do fortune tellers tie in with prayer to God. You got me on that one.

It is my belief that we can go boldly before the throne of grace and ask. God our Father will not withold any good thing to us if we ask. The effective fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much. We are to be that righteous man.