Catholics who openly dissent from Church Teaching

[Nate13]

Minor steaing is not the same significance as contraception - for Catholics, of course. That is why I asked if anyone (especially the OP) has a reliable statistics about the subject. The number mentioned in the OP was 90% of Catholics habitually use some kind of contraceptive. It just so happens that I find that number highly interesting and encouraging. There are other statistics which also confirm that a very sizable percentage of Catholics support not only preventive contraception, but also abortion, thus being contrarian to the teachings of Rome. Looks like there are many Catholics who disagree with the tradition. The fact that an extremely traditional forum (this one, filled with the “lookalikes” of fundamentalist protestants) is troubled by this trend fills me with expectation about the future. (For the record, I have nothing against religious people in general. I feel a kinship toward those who are usually labelled as “librul” Catholics. At the same time I do not have any respect for the ultra-traditional folk (of any creed or religion) at all, and I cross my fingers for their demise. Sorry kiddos, that is the way the cookie crumbles.)

Haha take a look at history and describe to me the cultural of past “great” societies at their downfall. We think we are so great because we are “tolerant” of homosexual relationships, contraception, abortion, and sexual immorality as if this is the first time in history that has ever been the case. These things were common place at times within past great civilizations. Why do you think the city of Jerusalem ended up getting destroyed in 70 A.D? I’d also point out that in the past, civilizations who sacrificed children had some awful ends and I don’t think God sees much of a difference between sacrificing children to some sun god as opposed to the money god or the free time god.

 

[ahs]

…That is why I asked if anyone (especially the OP) has a reliable statistics about the subject. The number mentioned in the OP was 90% of Catholics habitually use some kind of contraceptive.

“…in 1998 that 96% of U.S. Catholic women had used contraceptives at some point in their lives and that 72% of Catholics believed that one could be a good Catholic without obeying the Church’s teaching on birth control.[31] According to a nationwide poll of 2,242 U.S. adults surveyed online in September 2005 by Harris Interactive, 90% of Catholics supported the use of birth control/contraceptives.[32]” - you can google it…and I did not say “habitually”. And these statistics are OLD, from a far more conservative time.

It just so happens that I find that number highly interesting and encouraging. There are other statistics which also confirm that a very sizable percentage of Catholics support not only preventive contraception, but also abortion, thus being contrarian to the teachings of Rome. Looks like there are many Catholics who disagree with the tradition. The fact that an extremely traditional forum (this one, filled with the “lookalikes” of fundamentalist protestants) is troubled by this trend fills me with expectation about the future. (For the record, I have nothing against religious people in general. I feel a kinship toward those who are usually labelled as “librul” Catholics. At the same time I do not have any respect for the ultra-traditional folk (of any creed or religion) at all, and I cross my fingers for their demise. Sorry kiddos, that is the way the cookie crumbles.)

This is the reason for concern and the reason for the thread. The teachings of Rome are handed down by God, through Christ His Son. In rejecting these teachings (the Doctrines of the Faith) we are also rejecting the One who Authorized them. Souls are at stake, potentially, if these sins lead to mortal sin, heresey, or scandal as Mary Gail 36 points out.

My goal here is not to convert you to Catholicism, it is to call Catholics to the Faith that they have professed. You hope for our demise is all the more reason for Catholics to reach out to one antoher and lead each other to Truth.

 

[Bookcat]

(aside from the realty that polls…are well…just polls. This depend on who are asked…how they are asked etc…as they say statistics lie…(God though does not)…and oh heck just look at all the polls around election time…)

Add:

“The Church, which has her origin in the unity of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, (39) is a mystery of communion. In accordance with the will of her founder, she is organized around a hierarchy established for the service of the Gospel and the People of God who live by it. After the pattern of the members of the first community, all the baptized with their own proper charisms are to strive with sincere hearts for a harmonious unity in doctrine, life, and worship (cf. Acts 2:42). This is a rule which flows from the very being of the Church. For this reason, standards of conduct, appropriate to civil society or the workings of a democracy, cannot be purely and simply applied to the Church. Even less can relationships within the Church be inspired by the mentality of the world around it (ct. Rom 12:2). Polling public opinion to determine the proper thing to think or do, opposing the Magisterium by exerting the pressure of public opinion, making the excuse of a “consensus” among theologians, maintaining that the theologian is the prophetical spokesman of a “base” or autonomous community which would be the source of all truth, all this indicates a grave loss of the sense of truth and of the sense of the Church.”

CDF document Donum Veritatis -Signed by Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger

 

[Bookcat]

At one end of the spectrum are those who…take the tried and true approach of “Faith seeking understanding”…

on the other end of the spectrum are those who take the approach of a "do-it-yourself Faith…or worse…

Wonderful words to meditate on and indeed to return to often from Pope Benedict XVI:

“Paul illustrates the same idea of a necessary renewal of our way of being human in two passages of his Letter to the Ephesians; let us therefore reflect on them briefly. In the Letter’s fourth chapter, the Apostle tells us that with Christ we must attain adulthood, a mature faith. We can no longer be “children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine…” (4: 14). Paul wants Christians to have a “responsible” and “adult faith”. The words “adult faith” in recent decades have formed a widespread slogan. It is often meant in the sense of the attitude of those who no longer listen to the Church and her Pastors but autonomously choose what they want to believe and not to believe hence a do-it-yourself faith. And it is presented as a “courageous” form of self-expression against the Magisterium of the Church. In fact, however, no courage is needed for this because one may always be certain of public applause. Rather, courage is needed to adhere to the Church’s faith, even if this contradicts the “logic” of the contemporary world. This is the non-conformism of faith which Paul calls an “adult faith”. It is the faith that he desires. On the other hand, he describes chasing the winds and trends of the time as infantile. Thus, being committed to the inviolability of human life from its first instant, thereby radically opposing the principle of violence also precisely in the defence of the most defenceless human creatures is part of an adult faith. It is part of an adult faith to recognize marriage between a man and a woman for the whole of life as the Creator’s ordering, newly re-established by Christ. Adult faith does not let itself be carried about here and there by any trend. It opposes the winds of fashion. It knows that these winds are not the breath of the Holy Spirit; it knows that the Spirit of God is expressed and manifested in communion with Jesus Christ. However, here too Paul does not stop at saying “no”, but rather leads us to the great “yes”. He describes the mature, truly adult faith positively with the words: “speaking the truth in love” (cf. Eph 4: 15). The new way of thinking, given to us by faith, is first and foremost a turning towards the truth. The power of evil is falsehood. The power of faith, the power of God, is the truth. The truth about the world and about ourselves becomes visible when we look to God. And God makes himself visible to us in the Face of Jesus Christ. In looking at Christ, we recognize something else: truth and love are inseparable. In God both are inseparably one; it is precisely this that is the essence of God. For Christians, therefore, truth and love go together. Love is the test of truth. We should always measure ourselves anew against this criterion, so that truth may become love and love may make us truthful.”
**
~Pope Benedict XVI**

(read the whole thing…it is splendid! Do not miss a word…

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/homilies/2009/documents/hf_ben-xvi_hom_20090628_chius-anno-paolino_en.html)

 

[ahs]

I wanted to add to the OP…

We should not forget scandal

This is an open forum. The things discussed here can be “googled”. Anyone can stumble into these discussions.

Scandal is possible for those Catholics who do struggle with teachings/ or those ignorant of teachings.

They could very well come on here looking for the** truth**, and find a thread with posters writing about their dissension of the Church on whatever issue.

Someone could very well come here not knowing or understanding the teachings on contraception, for example, and find statements by Catholics saying that contraception is hunky dory, it helped their marriage, the Church is in error. Then this person thinks what is written here is actual Church teaching, or that Church teaching is subjective to how easy it is to follow.

SCANDAL!

(aside from the realty that polls…are well…just polls. This depend on who are asked…how they are asked etc…as they say statistics lie…(God though does not)…and oh heck just look at all the polls around election time…)

Add:

“The Church, which has her origin in the unity of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, (39) is a mystery of communion. In accordance with the will of her founder, she is organized around a hierarchy established for the service of the Gospel and the People of God who live by it. After the pattern of the members of the first community, all the baptized with their own proper charisms are to strive with sincere hearts for a harmonious unity in doctrine, life, and worship (cf. Acts 2:42). This is a rule which flows from the very being of the Church. For this reason, standards of conduct, appropriate to civil society or the workings of a democracy, cannot be purely and simply applied to the Church. Even less can relationships within the Church be inspired by the mentality of the world around it (ct. Rom 12:2). Polling public opinion to determine the proper thing to think or do, opposing the Magisterium by exerting the pressure of public opinion, making the excuse of a “consensus” among theologians, maintaining that the theologian is the prophetical spokesman of a “base” or autonomous community which would be the source of all truth, all this indicates a grave loss of the sense of truth and of the sense of the Church.”

CDF document Donum Veritatis -Signed by Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger

Thank you both for pointing these things out. Understanding scandal is seriously important for a Catholic to understand while posting on a public forum. Equally important is the fact that popularity does not remove the sinful nature of a sin.

For those who don’t understand the gravity of where contraception leads, please take an hour (at your convenience) to watch this video:
realcatholictv.com/free/index.php?vidID=ciax-2011-07-22&ssnID=162

 

[Bookcat]

“The Church, which has her origin in the unity of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, (39) is a mystery of communion. In accordance with the will of her founder, she is organized around a hierarchy established for the service of the Gospel and the People of God who live by it. After the pattern of the members of the first community, all the baptized with their own proper charisms are to strive with sincere hearts for a harmonious unity in doctrine, life, and worship (cf. Acts 2:42). This is a rule which flows from the very being of the Church. For this reason, standards of conduct, appropriate to civil society or the workings of a democracy, cannot be purely and simply applied to the Church. Even less can relationships within the Church be inspired by the mentality of the world around it (ct. Rom 12:2). Polling public opinion to determine the proper thing to think or do, opposing the Magisterium by exerting the pressure of public opinion, making the excuse of a “consensus” among theologians, maintaining that the theologian is the prophetical spokesman of a “base” or autonomous community which would be the source of all truth, all this indicates a grave loss of the sense of truth and of the sense of the Church.”

CDF document Donum Veritatis -Signed by Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger

The whole quote here is important…not just what I highlighted…

 

[dailey]

Yes, but unfortunately too many people sin and deny that they have done so. They dismiss the teaching and justify themselves. I believe it is a work of charity to point the truth to them, even if it hurts their feelings/pride. Should we tolerate those who openly dissent and are proud of it? I don’t think so.

BRAVO!!! VERY well said!

So tired of hearing Catholics who go against the church fall back on the “we are all sinners” to justify their way of thinking.

 

[Spock]

“…in 1998 that 96% of U.S. Catholic women had used contraceptives at some point in their lives and that 72% of Catholics believed that one could be a good Catholic without obeying the Church’s teaching on birth control.[31] According to a nationwide poll of 2,242 U.S. adults surveyed online in September 2005 by Harris Interactive, 90% of Catholics supported the use of birth control/contraceptives.[32]” - you can google it…and I did not say “habitually”. And these statistics are OLD, from a far more conservative time.

Thank you for the clarification. Do you mean that the current statistics would be “worse”?

This is the reason for concern and the reason for the thread. The teachings of Rome are handed down by God, through Christ His Son.

Obviously the trouble is that those dissenting Catholics are not convinced about this proposition. They prefer to think for themselves - which is an admirable trait in my eyes.

In rejecting these teachings (the Doctrines of the Faith) we are also rejecting the One who Authorized them.

I don’t think they do. They reject what they honestly believe is an incorrect teaching - and they act according to their conscience. As it was pointed out in the thread before, Catholics are supposed to follow their own conscience, as long it it does not conflict with the “party line”. If their conscience differs, then they are required to abandon it for meek and blind obedience. And that is what I find objectionable.

It reminds me of the famous (or infamous) line by Ford: “The buyer can choose any color for their car, as long as they want a black one”.

 

[ahs]

The whole quote here is important…not just what I highlighted…

Yes, and I apologize to the readers for over-simplifying it. Please don’t cheat yourselves out of absorbing the message here by Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger that Bookcat has made available for us.

(aside from the realty that polls…are well…just polls. This depend on who are asked…how they are asked etc…as they say statistics lie…(God though does not)…and oh heck just look at all the polls around election time…)

Add:

“The Church, which has her origin in the unity of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, (39) is a mystery of communion. In accordance with the will of her founder, she is organized around a hierarchy established for the service of the Gospel and the People of God who live by it. After the pattern of the members of the first community, all the baptized with their own proper charisms are to strive with sincere hearts for a harmonious unity in doctrine, life, and worship (cf. Acts 2:42). This is a rule which flows from the very being of the Church. For this reason, standards of conduct, appropriate to civil society or the workings of a democracy, cannot be purely and simply applied to the Church. Even less can relationships within the Church be inspired by the mentality of the world around it (ct. Rom 12:2). Polling public opinion to determine the proper thing to think or do, opposing the Magisterium by exerting the pressure of public opinion, making the excuse of a “consensus” among theologians, maintaining that the theologian is the prophetical spokesman of a “base” or autonomous community which would be the source of all truth, all this indicates a grave loss of the sense of truth and of the sense of the Church.”

CDF document Donum Veritatis -Signed by Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Thank you for the clarification. Do you mean that the current statistics would be “worse”?

Obviously the trouble is that those dissenting Catholics are not convinced about this proposition. They prefer to think for themselves - which is an admirable trait in my eyes.

I don’t think they do. They reject what they honestly believe is an incorrect teaching - and they act according to their conscience. As it was pointed out in the thread before, Catholics are supposed to follow their own conscience, as long it it does not conflict with the “party line”. If their conscience differs, then they are required to abandon it for meek and blind obedience. And that is what I find objectionable.

It reminds me of the famous (or infamous) line by Ford: “The buyer can choose any color for their car, as long as they want a black one”.

Just as a point to ponder:

Suppose that you have those who ‘think for themselves’. . .and decide that blacks are inferior, that women are inferior, that Jews should be exterminated. . .etc. etc.

You think that thinking for yourself is so wonderful --but is it when the thinking is clearly morally wrong?

And since there are clear moral wrongs, doesn’t that posit that there is some source of Truth? Truth that doesn’t change according to the person, the society, the ‘situations’, or the ‘times’, but unchanging everlasting truth?

Why oh WHY are there plaudits for those who in ‘thinking for themselves’ dissent from truth, as though only the THINKING PROCESS is worthwhile, no matter whether the person ultimately judges truly or falsely?

Tell you what, I think for MYSELF and I find that I want to believe the TRUTH and (again thinking for myself) I find this truth in the Catholic Church and its teachings. . .

But because (on sober exploration and intellectual questioning) I am actually ASSENTING to something rather than DISSENTING, many (not all, but many) will claim that I’m not ‘thinking for myself’ at all. . .

Ironic, is it not?

 

[ahs]

Thank you for the clarification. Do you mean that the current statistics would be “worse”?

I’m not entirely sure, but I imagine so, if not near the same. I have heard verbal sources that suggest the trend is the same in modern days, but I do not have a written reference.

Obviously the trouble is that those dissenting Catholics are not convinced about this proposition. They prefer to think for themselves - which is an admirable trait in my eyes.

We are certainly free to think for ourselves, and thinking for ourselves can be a good thing, unless it leads us away from God. To you this may not mean anything since you claim no religion. To a Catholic who identifies themselves as Catholic and believes they are in union with the Church, thinking for themselves should be done with a well-formed conscience, one that is in line with the teachings of Christ, the Laws of God, and we have those written for us in the Scriptures and in Church Doctrine. One of our goals as Catholics is to be with God for all eternity, to accept and love and adore all that He is. Another of our goals, and our mission, is to speak the Truth to all so that all can enjoy this everlasting joy with our Creator. If our “thinking for ourselves” leads us to act contrary to God’s Laws, we are hindering our progress toward our goal, possibly even damaging it, or worse.

I don’t think they do. They reject what they honestly believe is an incorrect teaching - and they act according to their conscience. As it was pointed out in the thread before, Catholics are supposed to follow their own conscience, as long it it does not conflict with the “party line”. If their conscience differs, then they are required to abandon it for meek and blind obedience. And that is what I find objectionable.

It reminds me of the famous (or infamous) line by Ford: “The buyer can choose any color for their car, as long as they want a black one”.

They reject something they truly do not understand, even though it is a Doctrine of the Faith to which they profess unity…even though it is a Doctrine of the Faith that Christ established. And therefore, they run the serious risk of rejecting Christ. In keeping with the Faith they profess, they should accept the Truths of the Church, the Doctrines of the Church, and assent to them regardless of understanding, because the Church was established by our Creator and all the Doctrine within it is intended to bring us to unity with our Creator.

 

[Bookcat]

At one end of the spectrum are those who…take the tried and true approach of “Faith seeking understanding”…

on the other end of the spectrum are those who take the approach of a "do-it-yourself Faith…or worse…

Wonderful words to meditate on and indeed to return to often from Pope Benedict XVI:

“Paul illustrates the same idea of a necessary renewal of our way of being human in two passages of his Letter to the Ephesians; let us therefore reflect on them briefly. In the Letter’s fourth chapter, the Apostle tells us that with Christ we must attain adulthood, a mature faith. We can no longer be “children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine…” (4: 14). Paul wants Christians to have a “responsible” and “adult faith”. The words “adult faith” in recent decades have formed a widespread slogan. It is often meant in the sense of the attitude of those who no longer listen to the Church and her Pastors but autonomously choose what they want to believe and not to believe hence a do-it-yourself faith. And it is presented as a “courageous” form of self-expression against the Magisterium of the Church. In fact, however, no courage is needed for this because one may always be certain of public applause. Rather, courage is needed to adhere to the Church’s faith, even if this contradicts the “logic” of the contemporary world. This is the non-conformism of faith which Paul calls an “adult faith”. It is the faith that he desires. On the other hand, he describes chasing the winds and trends of the time as infantile. Thus, being committed to the inviolability of human life from its first instant, thereby radically opposing the principle of violence also precisely in the defence of the most defenceless human creatures is part of an adult faith. It is part of an adult faith to recognize marriage between a man and a woman for the whole of life as the Creator’s ordering, newly re-established by Christ. Adult faith does not let itself be carried about here and there by any trend. It opposes the winds of fashion. It knows that these winds are not the breath of the Holy Spirit; it knows that the Spirit of God is expressed and manifested in communion with Jesus Christ. However, here too Paul does not stop at saying “no”, but rather leads us to the great “yes”. He describes the mature, truly adult faith positively with the words: “speaking the truth in love” (cf. Eph 4: 15). The new way of thinking, given to us by faith, is first and foremost a turning towards the truth. The power of evil is falsehood. The power of faith, the power of God, is the truth. The truth about the world and about ourselves becomes visible when we look to God. And God makes himself visible to us in the Face of Jesus Christ. In looking at Christ, we recognize something else: truth and love are inseparable. In God both are inseparably one; it is precisely this that is the essence of God. For Christians, therefore, truth and love go together. Love is the test of truth. We should always measure ourselves anew against this criterion, so that truth may become love and love may make us truthful.”
**
~Pope Benedict XVI**

(read the whole thing…it is splendid! Do not miss a word…

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/homilies/2009/documents/hf_ben-xvi_hom_20090628_chius-anno-paolino_en.html)

 

[Bezant]

Just as a point to ponder:

Suppose that you have those who ‘think for themselves’. . .and decide that blacks are inferior, that women are inferior, that Jews should be exterminated. . .etc. etc.
You think that thinking for yourself is so wonderful --but is it when the thinking is clearly morally wrong?

/QUOTE]

Hello,

A very interesting thread.

That’s definitely a valid point, Tantum Ergo, although I don’t think because our minds are sometimes led to error that we must distrust it on faith and morals.

 

[Bookcat]

“Paul makes this process of “recasting” even clearer by saying that we become new if we transform our way of thinking. What has been introduced here with “way of thinking” is the Greek term “nous”. It is a complex word. It may be translated as “spirit”, “sentiments”, “reason”, and precisely, also by “way of thinking”. Thus our reason must become new. This surprises us. We might have expected instead that this would have concerned some attitude: what we should change in our behaviour. But no: renewal must go to the very core. Our way of looking at the world, of understanding reality all our thought must change from its foundations.”

~ Pope Benedict XVI

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/homilies/2009/documents/hf_ben-xvi_hom_20090628_chius-anno-paolino_en.html

 

[Nate13]

I think the problem is we first and foremost consider what is best for our bodies before we consider what is best for our souls. I believe it was Augustine who showed great reasoning in showing how nothing is good for the body if it is not good for the soul. Thus if we have any doubt and I mean any doubt that something is not good for our soul that doubt should be first and foremost in our decision making. No matter what pain and suffering we face hear on Earth, it will all be worth it if we attain eternal life.

 

[marine13]

:

If you don’t agree with the Church on capital punishment, you are still dissenting. However, unless you are called upon to actually admininster a lethal injection, your dissent itself won’t lead to serious sin. At worst, you might be guilty of material cooperation if you supported someone who stood against the Church on this issue (ie in an election or for some honor). How serious an issue this is would be between you and your confessor.

If you don’t agree with the Church on contraception and keep it to yourself, you are in the exact same situation. However, if that disagreement leads to actually using contraception or encouraging your spouse to use contraception, there is nothing separating you from the sin itself. It is no longer a case of judgement but of objectively sinful action.

Corki,

I would argue that those people who privately disagree with various teachings but still bend to the will of the Church show a remarkable level of faith. I know that I have struggled with the reason/logic behind certain aspects of Catholic doctrine but I also realize that I am imperfect and might not be able to fully grasp the truth behind it so I accept all that the Church teaches because I have faith in God, the Magesterium, and papal infalibility. While my mind has disagreed with some teachings my heart lead me in the way of the Church. I am not sure the Church is calling us all to fully understand why things are the way they are but to simply follow its teachings faithfully. Hopefully through faithful obedience and trust in the Lord people will research the topics they struggle with and see the Church’s reasoning and logic and accept it wholeheartedly.

I hope that makes sense…

 

[Little_One0307]

The importanrt thing is not to sin Against the teachings of The Church, which is Christ on Earth, in Morality especially. Vivat Jesu Have to watch Who publishes What statistics; Many Have an agenda to ‘prove’ their viewpoint. Those are Not Valid polls or studies, by the Rules of OPolling or statistics, whiich Per Se are supposed to be Unbiased, Neutral.

                                                                                                                    Very important Thread;  rating it   5  star.  in  my  morality  opinion.

I am going to rate it 5 stars as well. I was very glad to see it posted and am glad to see that it is being well responded to.

God bless.

 

[Little_One0307]

Sorry but this does not make sense. To sin is to not follow the teachings of the Church.

I think what you mean is - it is one thing to sin and still recognize the correctness of the teaching of the church and completely another to sin and declare that the teaching of the Church is wrong anyway that is why you don’t follow them.

The first means that there is a chance for repentance because we have clear goal posts. The latter implies that there is no need for repentance because there is no sin anyway. That is the scary bit because what is bad is now deemed good and what is good is now deemed bad.

Ahhh yes Benedictus2,

Thanks for clarifying that post for me. I knew what I meant to say and you have expressed it nicely. Sometimes my thoughts just don’t get properly expressed at that time of the day.

God bless you for being charitable and correcting it for me.

Thank you.

 

[Spock]

Just as a point to ponder:

Suppose that you have those who ‘think for themselves’. . .and decide that blacks are inferior, that women are inferior, that Jews should be exterminated. . .etc. etc.

Yes, it can happen, after all we are not a species to regard highly. As a matter of fact I think that the bonobos are vastly superior to humans when it comes to moral behavior. They make love not war. We have a lot to learn and evolve before we can reach their level of morality.

You think that thinking for yourself is so wonderful --but is it when the thinking is clearly morally wrong?

Then you point it out, by telling them where do they go wrong. However that is not supposed happen by using the age-old: “because I said so!” type of argument. Looks like that you are adamant in believing that they are wrong - just because they dissent. I have never seen a coherent, secular argument against the process of contraception, and likely will never see one.

And since there are clear moral wrongs, doesn’t that posit that there is some source of Truth? Truth that doesn’t change according to the person, the society, the ‘situations’, or the ‘times’, but unchanging everlasting truth?

There is no such object as “truth”, even if you capitalize it. There are zillions of true and false statements, of course. And they all refer to something in some specific environment. I can think of propositions which will always evaluate to “true” - as long as there is someone to make that proposition. Those propositions are called tautologies, irrelevant utterances.

Why oh WHY are there plaudits for those who in ‘thinking for themselves’ dissent from truth, as though only the THINKING PROCESS is worthwhile, no matter whether the person ultimately judges truly or falsely?

Because it is the thinking process that can lead to true propositions, not the mindless swallowing of some dogma. Of course there is no guarantee that the end result will be true. That is why we MUST have the open marketplace of ideas to discuss things, even if they happen to be controversial. There is no human being, even with the IQ of 500 who would be as smart as one million of average guys together.

Tell you what, I think for MYSELF and I find that I want to believe the TRUTH and (again thinking for myself) I find this truth in the Catholic Church and its teachings. . .

Good for you!

But because (on sober exploration and intellectual questioning) I am actually ASSENTING to something rather than DISSENTING, many (not all, but many) will claim that I’m not ‘thinking for myself’ at all. . .

I am not one of them.

Ironic, is it not?

You know what is really ironic? Jesus was the ultimate “librul”, who went against all the establishment, and who was duly crucified for trying to rock “the boat”. If he would come back today as a simple human in disguise, the Catholic Church (the ultimate bastion of conservatism and traditionalism) would be on the forefront to crucify him again - if, of course it still had the power to do so. Fortunately those times are over and hopefully will never come back again.

 

[rben20]

Regarding the OP’s post,

Yes, we are to abide to ALL teachings of the Catholic Church. If we even disagree with one teaching and not follow it we are no longer Catholic. We just threw out a teaching and made the church of me. There is a big difference in struggling with a sin and outright sinning because you don’t see it as a sin. Admonishing is different from judging for those who say that the OP is “judging,” he really isn’t. What we have to do is acknowledge that we don’t know everything and trust in the Church of which Christ established.