Catholics who vote for those who kill the innocent are-

[HarryStotle]

otjm:

You missed entirely what I was saying, and I am not getting into a disagreement with you. It is not the substance of the quote but the use of it which amuses me.

Right now, there are many who believe that abortion is in a category of sin all by itself. There are also those who believe the same thing about homosexuality. I think it good sometimes to step back and see what God has said. What does he hate? What sins cry out to him for vengeance?

I guess I am not seeing the problem with it being used here. And lest we forget, that while abortion may well be the biggest social concern in the United States at this time in history, it is still not the mission of the Church. We are not a social activities club. Whether people go to Heaven or Hell will always be the most important concern. To this end, the sin of abortion is very concerning, but so are other mortal sins. There is a good reason why I consider the character of leaders I vote form.

I suppose we could equally dismiss murder, rape and other big “social concerns” as “not the mission of the Church.” Is that true, however? Abortion is not the mission of the Church? That is like saying the lives and deaths of people are “not the mission of the Church” because her concern is Heaven or Hell.

Perhaps the confused point here is that “Heaven or Hell” appears to be a completely separate reality from the earthly reality, a separate realm and therefore a separate area of concern with far greater priority. But is that necessarily so?

When Jesus says “My kingdom is not of this world,” is he necessarily implying a spiritual kingdom completely separated from physical reality?

The Apostles’ Creed says, “I believe in…the resurrection of the body.” The Church has always taught bodily resurrection and Jesus (the eternal Word and God) became a human being with a body. The bread and wine is his glorified body and blood. These are not symbols, but transcendent realities that exist in and through the physical reality. His glorified body means heaven is inseparable from earth, but that Jesus is recreating the earth and human beings as eternal existents.

Blessed are the poor in spirit,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
…
Blessed are the meek,
for they will inherit the earth.

The poor in spirit that posses the kingdom of heaven are the meek who inherit the earth.

I don’t believe social and political concerns can be detached from or left isolated from religious concerns as if they are non-overlapping magisteria. Every sin matters. Every life including of the unborn, matters eternally. Social activities are moral activities are spiritual activities. There is no parsing or peeling and throwing out the rind of the social to save the spiritual. It is all one. I believe in God, the Father almighty, creator of heaven and earth.

 

[AlNg]

The ones who are responsible for those deaths are the mothers who sought the abortions and the doctors who performed them.

The mothers contracted the murder of their unborn and the doctor (or nurse) carried out the contract. If a wife contracts the murder of her teenager or of her husband, and the killer carries out her contract, then would it not be true that both are guilty of murder?
In the meantime, there are many Catholic politicians who say they are for allowing abortion to be illegal. But it has already been decided by the US Supreme Court in Roe v Wade that some abortions at least are legal. There was even a Catholic priest who was a Congressman who voted to keep abortions legal although he said he was opposed to them. He was given a Catholic funeral. Some Catholic colleges allow pro-choice speakers to give the commencement address. I asked the priest who was the President of a Roman Catholic college as to whether or not he thought this was a wise thing to do. And he said that we must respect academic freedom.

So who bears the greater guilt for the murder:
The mother who contracts for the murder.
The person who carries out the contract of the mother.
The politician who is pro-choice.
The Supreme Court justice who says that it is the right of the mother to choose to have an abortion.
The voter who has voted for a pro-choice politician?

BTW, there are not too many Democrats who are pro-life. A lot of them will say they are personally opposed to abortion, but don’t think that abortion should be made illegal. Some Protestant churches will allow abortion under certain conditions. Take for example, a case in which a young girl is kidnapped, beaten and raped. Now she has to spend 9 months in psychological agony as she carries the child of the rapist who beat her. Further, if she is living in a situation where she does not have access to orphanages, she must raise this child in love, even though it was conceived in violence and in total lack of respect for the life, liberty and happiness of the young girl who was raped.

 

[pnewton]

I suppose we could equally dismiss murder,

Your use of the word “dismiss” does not match what I wrote. I did not dismiss anything. However, it is true that the primary mission of the Church is salvation. I would think all Catholic would agree with this. The right perspective on reality is not a dismissal.

 

[HarryStotle]

HarryStotle:

I suppose we could equally dismiss murder,

Your use of the word “dismiss” does not match what I wrote. I did not dismiss anything. However, it is true that the primary mission of the Church is salvation. I would think all Catholic would agree with this. The right perspective on reality is not a dismissal.

Except salvation separated from reality is not exactly the right perspective.

This is a problematic line, no?

And lest we forget, that while abortion may well be the biggest social concern in the United States at this time in history, it is still not the mission of the Church.

Who, precisely, is the salvation mission of the Church concerned with? Is it not the salvation of human beings? If that, it presupposes the lives of individual human beings – including aborting mothers, abortion doctors, and the aborted babies – to be saved, no?

Can the Church concern itself with the salvation of souls that were killed prematurely as if those don’t count because they never made it into visible reality?

How do we separate death from salvation? Can the dead be saved?

Can souls dead to grace and to God be saved if they die to grace because they have the false impression that killing the unborn isn’t an issue with regard to their salvation?

 

[JSRG]

JSRG:

Can you provide a citation for that?

It comes from the following: Sanger, Margaret (January 27, 1932). “The Pope’s Position on Birth Control”. The Nation . 135 (3473): 102–104.

But that doesn’t support what you said. You stated:

Well, we can split hairs on the matter, She founded the Clinical Research Bureau as a means of promoting birth control, and in 1932 she directed it to refer patients to hospitals for “therapeutic abortions”. You are welcome to contend that she was adamant that those referred were truly in danger of death. You may have a hard time finding adequate documentation to support that.

That isn’t supported at all by your link; I see nothing about her directing it to refer patients for abortions. The only mention of abortion at all in the whole thing is this paragraph, which is a strong condemnation of abortion:

Before going farther I wish to quote the very Reverend W. R. Inge, Dean of St. Paul’s Cathedral, London, who has written that “the real alternative to birth control is abortion.” It is an alternative that I cannot too strongly condemn. Although abortion may be resorted to in order to save the life of the mother, the practice of it merely for limitation of offspring is dangerous and vicious. I bring up the subject here only because some ill-informed persons have the notion that when we speak of birth control we include abortion as a method. We certainly do not. Abortion destroys the already fertilized ovum or the embryo; contraception, as I have carefully explained, prevents the fertilizing of the ovum by keeping the male cells away. Thus it prevents the beginning of life.

 

[pnewton]

Can souls dead to grace and to God be saved if they die to grace because they have the false impression that killing the unborn isn’t an issue with regard to their salvation?

This is the only question I found problematic. A false impression means that there is not full knowledge, one of the requirements for a sin to be mortal. As to the rest, please remember that I still said abortion is the greatest social concern at this time. I never lowered its gravity, other than to not it is not our mission. Social justice, of all kinds, is a means, not an end, to salvation.

 

[HarryStotle]

HarryStotle:

Can souls dead to grace and to God be saved if they die to grace because they have the false impression that killing the unborn isn’t an issue with regard to their salvation?

This is the only question I found problematic. A false impression means that there is not full knowledge, one of the requirements for a sin to be mortal.

Perhaps, but it isn’t clear that “invincible ignorance” is as prevalent a phenomenon as many of us make it out to be. There may just be a whole lot of self-deception going on.

The true light, which enlightens everyone, was coming into the world.
He was in the world, and the world came into being through him; yet the world did not know him. He came to what was his own, and his own people did not accept him. But to all who received him, who believed in his name, he gave power to become children of God,…
And the Word became flesh and lived among us, and we have seen his glory, the glory as of a father’s only son, full of grace and truth. (John 1:9-12, 14)

Seems to me that receiving the light, seeing the light that shines in the darkness is a requirement for salvation. If this depiction of grace and truth expresses the reality of the situation, it would seem remaining in the dark about sin – i.e., not having full knowledge – isn’t as excusable as we make it out to be. Hard to miss a light when the space is dark.
Perhaps ignoring it isn’t difficult, but the term is invincible ignorance, not invincible ignoring.

As to the rest, please remember that I still said abortion is the greatest social concern at this time. I never lowered its gravity, other than to not it is not our mission. Social justice, of all kinds, is a means, not an end, to salvation.

Isn’t true justice, with each individual fully alive in Christ, what the end of salvation means?

 

[pnewton]

Perhaps, but it isn’t clear that “invincible ignorance” is as prevalent a phenomenon as many of us make it out to be. There may just be a whole lot of self-deception going on.

I did not use that term on purpose. That affects all sin. I was referring what is needed for mortal sin:

• Its subject matter must be grave .
• It must be committed with full knowledge (and awareness) of the sinful action and the gravity of the offense.
• It must be committed with deliberate and complete consent.

A false impression, by definition precludes full knowledge.

 

[HarryStotle]

HarryStotle:

Perhaps, but it isn’t clear that “invincible ignorance” is as prevalent a phenomenon as many of us make it out to be. There may just be a whole lot of self-deception going on.

I did not use that term on purpose. That affects all sin. I was referring what is needed for mortal sin:

• Its subject matter must be grave .
• It must be committed with full knowledge (and awareness) of the sinful action and the gravity of the offense.
• It must be committed with deliberate and complete consent.

A false impression, by definition precludes full knowledge.

No, actually, I meant delusion regarding “full knowledge.” That is deluding oneself that one does not have full knowledge in order to excuse some behaviour or other. I would guess that a whole lot of giving into temptation is often accompanied by all kinds of self-delusion and, or as part of, excuse-making.

 

[twoshoes]

We do love our sins.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

We do love our sins.

Speak for yourself. As for me, I hate my sins, as I agree with St. Paul who says:

“What I do, I do not understand. For I do not do what I want, but I do what I hate…For I do not do the good I want, but I do the evil I do not want.” (Rom 7: 15,19)

 

[Dobby]

Sorry. I watched as much as I could stomach, but I still refuse to take voting advice from priests.

 

[twoshoes]

Then why do you continue to sin?

 

[LeafByNiggle]

Then why do you continue to sin?

I don’t know specifically which sin of mine you are referencing , but as for my sinning generally, it is because I am part of fallen humanity, and like all of us, I stand in great need of God’s mercy.

 

[TheLittleLady]

But I kind of doubt that any abortion is a venial sin.

Abortion, to be a mortal sin, must meet the three criteria.

It always meets the first, that is, grave matter.

Knowledge and consent are lacking in many, from my experience, MOST instances.

 

[Maximus1]

Not a word about the GOP cutting off pre-existing coverage and coverage period for about 30 million.
And the direct and proximately caused deaths that will result. Not a word!

 

[Larry1700]

At the time they vote, they only get one vote to represent all the points they wanted to make.

Agree. It would be great if we could vote on specific issues, as opposed to voting for a person who SAYS they will do something we like, but then doesn’t because of lobbying, or personal profit or even valid compromising.

Sometimes we are allowed to vote on specific issues, but are then thwarted by some “authority.” Remember how Californians voted against same-sex marriage, but the voters will was overturned by the courts?

 

[Larry1700]

Abortion, to be a mortal sin, must meet the three criteria.

It always meets the first, that is, grave matter.

Knowledge and consent are lacking in many, from my experience, MOST instances.

Regarding the “knowledge” part, the Democrat-Party-supported Planned Parenthood has strongly opposed efforts to allow women to see ultrasound video which would prove that they are indeed carrying a living human being.

As for the “consent” part, please explain how someone can have an abortion without giving their consent. Obviously, I’m not talking about someone violently forcing a woman down and killing the baby. I’m talking about the legal abortions that happen every day. The woman goes in, pays her money, and consents to the procedure. Am I missing something?

 

[otjm]

Well, we could debate that at length. It may well be that a 15 year old does not have the requisite intent, as coercion often is a major factor. I kind of have my doubts about the doctor, the assistants, and those who coerce.

Bottom line is we have a dead child; it is up to God to determine the rest.

and then there is the issue of those who may have a deadened conscience. I will leave that one up to God. But I have my doubts that renders a “get out of jail” card.

 

[twoshoes]

I mean it as a general statement of repeating the same sin over, and over again. I didnot say it to condemn you, maybe more about myself. I have enough problems with my own sins.