'catholics "worsip Mary"

[dianaiad]

Well said, Diana.

No, its not. It is better instead to listen to what others tell us they believe. If we disagree, disagree with what they actually believe, not what we think they believe. And that goes both ways.

Jon

(grin) But it’s so much more…]interesting to get the National Enquirer version!

I mean, asking Fr. Frank what he believes is likely to be a bit more boring than asking some CARM writer what Fr. Frank believes, and The Godmakers is so much shiverier than a couple of earnest nineteen year olds, right?

 

[Rbt_Southwell]

Great, I love Mary too.

But you love proof-texting and quibbling more, ckempston.

Of course, everyone knows that the Bible was meant to be a How-To-Be-A-Christian book, or better yet, How-To-Worship-Him Manual, don’t they??

I mean, it’s right there in the Bible in, uh, Gospel of Peter, no, maybe, over at Gospel of James, er, uh, aw shucks! those dang Catholics [Pope Damasus I and those rascally Bishops] cut out the good parts that would support my Islamic “each dot, each letter, is Allah’s DIRECT quote”] or Mormon “I used a seer stone to translate the Reformed Egyptian on those golden plates!”] approach to 1500 YEARS of Tradition prior to Luther and gang!!

Dang! Dabnabbit!

Well, I know, we’ll pretend the sense of a word TODAY is the same as it was CENTURIES ago unless of course, it suits us better to keep it the same and poke at those Papists.

Ah, the infallibility of infallible paleographers and semanticists!

Robert

 

[PJM]

**

I have been a Catholic all of my life and I have never heard the Church tell its people that we must worship Mary

. For that charge to be true, then please provide the genuine Catholic Church document which states that Catholics are to worship Mary? Did you ever think to go to the source for the answer to this one?**

It is far more accurate to understand that WE pray THROUGH rather than we pray TO. Both are true, but TRHOUGH is both "true and accurate.

We honor (Mother of God) we praise (Mother of God) we ask for assistance (Mother of God) we reverence (Mother of God)…

BUT we know that Mary is God’s Mother, not God Himself!

We pray through, we do not (at least informed preactcing RC’s do not “worship” Mary, in the way we Do WORSHIP God. with latria,
God only Worship. Amen:thumbsup:

Hail Mary full of Grace (Luke 1:26
The Lord is with you (Luke 1:26
Blessed are you among women Luke 1:42
And Blessed is the Fruit of Your womb Luke 1:43
Holy Mary, Mother of God Luke 1:35

"Pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death."

And we reply: Amen:thumbsup: I do believe!

Mary please lead us to your Son Jesus!

PJM m.c.

 

[bpbasilphx]

**
Quote:
Originally Posted by bpbasilphx View Post
I forgot to mention that when I was a Baptist before I got saved, we said prayers to pieces of cloth.
Why weren’t you saved as a Baptist?

Did you really say prayers to a cloth?**

**There’s a great deal of difference between what the Bible means by being saved, and what Baptists mean by being saved, but that need not concern us here.

We indeed said prayers to pieces of cloth.

They were brought up with great solemnity to the front of the church for veneration, and worshipped with ritual gestures executed in unison on the command of the leader: “Attention! Salute! Pledge!”

What’s odd is that both prayers began with the same words, “I pledge allegiance…”

If Catholics worship Mary, then Baptists (and other Protestants) say prayers to pieces of cloth. You can’t condemn the first and approve the second.**

 

[planten]

**

It is far more accurate to understand that WE pray THROUGH rather than we pray TO. Both are true, but TRHOUGH is both "true and accurate.

We honor (Mother of God) we praise (Mother of God) we ask for assistance (Mother of God) we reverence (Mother of God)…

BUT we know that Mary is God’s Mother, not God Himself!

We pray through, we do not (at least informed preactcing RC’s do not “worship” Mary, in the way we Do WORSHIP God. with latria,
God only Worship. Amen:thumbsup:

And we reply: Amen:thumbsup: I do believe!

Mary please lead us to your Son Jesus!

PJM m.c.**

**That is all a good example of one foot in hell and the other in heavens. That is another way described in a poetical sense" To please the gardener (the caretaker) and at the same time please the poachers (who hunt nightingales)."

No disrespect is intended**.

 

[PJM]

You are right.

Synonyms for blessed:

• holy
• sacred
• sanctified
• hollowed
• consecrated
• set apart

Synonyms for venerated:

• respected
• acclaimed
• adored
• highly thought of
• recognized
• established

Looks like blessed is on a whole other playing field. She is set apart from the rest of us and because of that we respect her. Actually, a synonym for honor is respect/venerated. And that is precisely all we do to The Blessed Virgin Mary and the rest of the Saints.

Amen, as we should!

Darn, wish I had thought of that:thumbsup: :clapping:

Kudo’s and Thanks!

Very well done,

God bless you,

PJM m.c.

 

[ziapueblo]

Thanks

 

[Jean_1958]

One of the 10 Commandments tells us to honor thy mother and father. I honor my mother and father here on Earth just as I honor my spiritual mother (Mary) and father (God). Why should I not honor and venerate the one who bore my Christ?

I agree with tobinatorstark. I think many non-Catholics don’t know the difference between veneration and worship.

God Bless,

Jean

 

[John7]

I agree with tobinatorstark. I think many non-Catholics don’t know the difference between veneration and worship.
God Bless,
Jean

When I was a protestant my thoughts were that those are just convenient words (ie, veneration-vs-worship, or hyperdulia-vs-latria) that Catholics hide behind so that they can **say **they are only venerating Mary while really worshipping her with their actions.

 

[JonNC]

When I was a protestant my thoughts were that those are just convenient words (ie, veneration-vs-worship, or hyperdulia-vs-latria) that Catholics hide behind so that they can **say **they are only venerating Mary while really worshipping her with their actions.

All I can say to my Catholic friends is patiently explain. Some will never (try to) understand. Others will understand - they may not agree with invocation, but they will understand.

Jon

 

[dianaiad]

All I can say to my Catholic friends is patiently explain. Some will never (try to) understand. Others will understand - they may not agree with invocation, but they will understand.

Jon

Yes.

Some of us get it. In the long run, though, it doesn’t matter what WE think, the non-Catholics; it only matters what you believe yourselves, and what God believes.

I think that He is quite capable of deciding whether you are “worshiping” vs. “venerating” without the help of critics.

(grin) But don’t take my word for it; I’m not, after all, Catholic!

 

[JonNC]

Yes.

Some of us get it. In the long run, though, it doesn’t matter what WE think, the non-Catholics; it only matters what you believe yourselves, and what God believes.

I think that He is quite capable of deciding whether you are “worshiping” vs. “venerating” without the help of critics.

(grin) But don’t take my word for it; I’m not, after all, Catholic!

I agree. I am not so quick to condemn a pious practice shared by both East and West. God knows the hearts of our Catholic siblings and hears their prayers, whether the saints do or not.

Jon

 

[Ag_not]

Revelation 22:8 I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I had heard and seen them, I** fell down to worship **at the feet of the angel who had been showing them to me. 9But he said to me, “Do not do it! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers the prophets and of all who keep the words of this book. Worship God!”

…The angel showed extreme alarm that John would do this, and told him not to.

And quite right too. He shouldn’t have been about to bow down and WORSHIP anyone but God.

Just like Catholics worship only God.

 

[Ruthie]

I notice that no one has taken up Bill’s challenge!

please provide the genuine Catholic Church document which states that Catholics are to worship Mary

I’ve been waiting!

Heart of Jesus, one with the eternal Word, have mercy on us.

Ruthie

 

[JMJ_coder]

I notice that no one has taken up Bill’s challenge!

I’ve been waiting!

Heart of Jesus, one with the eternal Word, have mercy on us.

Ruthie

You’ll find it in older translations, when worship was defined more broadly to include deep devotion and honor. I gave an example in the other thread, here it is again:

It is difficult because often Protestants will present old books and documents that affirm that we should worship Mary and they say “haha, I knew it!”. But they do not realize that what is meant by the word worship then is not what is meant today. For example, in the papal encyclical Fulgens Corona we are told:

1. It is therefore, a pleasure for us, a full century having passed since the Pontiff of immortal memory, Pius IX, solemnly proclaimed this singular privilege of the Virgin Mother of God, to summarize the whole doctrinal position and conclude in these words of the same Pontiff, asserting that this doctrine “vouched for in Sacred Scripture according to the interpretation of the Fathers, is handed down by them in so many of their important writings, is expressed and celebrated in so many illustrious monuments of renowned antiquity, and proposed and confirmed by the greatest and highest decision of the Church” (Bull Ineffabilis Deus), so that to pastors and faithful there is nothing "more sweet, nothing dearer than to worship, venerate, invoke and praise with ardent affection the Mother of God conceived without stain of original sin. (Ibidem.)

But, if you look at the original Latin you see that this is an old translation. The Latin, which reads: « dulcius, nihil carius, quam ferventissimo affectu Deiparam Virginem absque labe originali conceptam ubique colere, venerari, invocare et praedicare »

The Latin colere was then rendered as worship, today in modern English it is better translated as “to cherish or honor greatly”.

 

[ferdie]

Some of us get it. In the long run, though, it doesn’t matter what WE think, the non-Catholics; it only matters what you believe yourselves, and what God believes.

I think that He is quite capable of deciding whether you are “worshiping” vs. “venerating” without the help of critics.

(grin) But don’t take my word for it; I’m not, after all, Catholic!

I agree. I am not so quick to condemn a pious practice shared by both East and West. God knows the hearts of our Catholic siblings and hears their prayers, whether the saints do or not.

diaaiad, JonC, nice to read these from both of you.

 

[planten]

One of the 10 Commandments tells us to honor thy mother and father. I honor my mother and father here on Earth just as I honor my spiritual mother (Mary) and father (God). Why should I not honor and venerate the one who bore my Christ?

I agree with tobinatorstark. I think many non-Catholics don’t know the difference between veneration and worship.

God Bless,

Jean

** If any one praises Mary and respects her, we do not mind. But if any one will bow down to Mary or her statue or make any statue and keep it in any house, that will become idol worship.

There is no harm honoring and respecting her as much as one likes. But that is not the way to respect her to start doing things which are only allowed for God.

It is forbidden to make any idols. And we see that christians have got the idols (solid samples) of Jesus and Mary in the churches. If people had such things in their homes even then it was necessary for the christian teachers to forbid such bad things.

But we see that statues are present in the churches. That is clear sin as per bibleOT and the Quran. The church has made a man into a God. that was disputable and bad enough. But they got the statues of Jesus and Mary in the churches and yet they are pressing ahead that they are right. I hope not.**

 

[R_not]

It is called ‘art’ and that has been explained to you a so many times that I forget how often. And probably was done so before I joined CAF. AS the Trinity and other things have been explained to you. But, I don’t see too much of an attempt at understanding because you wouldn’t keep repeating it.

Sometimes I think it is cheap art, but it is art nonetheless. But, they are a good way of reminding us of those people they depict - nothing else.

At certain points of time most art was only religious art. And Mary, Jesus and the host of Saints have been depicted in many different ways, styles of dress, color of hair and skin, etc.

 

[planten]

It is called ‘art’ and that has been explained to you a so many times that I forget how often. And probably was done so before I joined CAF. AS the Trinity and other things have been explained to you. But, I don’t see too much of an attempt at understanding because you wouldn’t keep repeating it.

Sometimes I think it is cheap art, but it is art nonetheless. But, they are a good way of reminding us of those people they depict - nothing else.

At certain points of time most art was only religious art. And Mary, Jesus and the host of Saints have been depicted in many different ways, styles of dress, color of hair and skin, etc.

** It is all sin in the beautiful name of art. What an idle thought to start something sinful under the clever garb of art !**

 

[R_not]

** It is all sin in the beautiful name of art. What an idle thought to start something sinful under the clever garb of art !**

You worry about art, but you follow a guy who sinned so often he had to redefine sin for his followers.

No one is sinning - and you are not the ‘judge or jury’ of anyone else who does sin. What is called for is toleration of other’s beliefs and if they say they do not worship something then it is not up to you to say that they do.