Catholics Would u go to church w\o the real presence teaching Eucharist

[mmldwheel40]

I think a lot us struggle to realize the difference between spiritual and emotional experiences. I think if these people could somehow instantly develop an understanding of the Eucharist then they would make the sacrifices to attend Catholic mass but that’s probably not going to happen to most people.

For me, every time I attend mass, I always feels Spiritually at Peace. Also, the whole Eucharist is extremely moving to me. Sometimes I get tears in my eyes, thinking about what Our Lord has done for us.

This is a reason I wouldn’t attend mass if there wasn’t the real presence of The Lord.

 

[Gorgias]

There are thousands of churches every Sunday performing this ceremony without any “real evidence” or result.

Hmm… six pages of responses, and nothing from the OP? Looks a bit like a ‘hit and run’ post…

It’s a shame – I think I would’ve asked him what kind of “real evidence” he would expect to find…

 

[Ernie07]

I am not sure of the source of your statement, but I suspect it is an older polling, which used questions creating potentially significant miss-information.

I don’t even recall how long ago the poll was made; but it sent the comment flying around the internet that Catholics did not believe in the Real Presence.

What the poll showed is that we have a lot of poorly catechized Catholics, who could not identify correctly the theological word for the change from bread and wine into the body and blood of Christ.

What was not asked was if they believe Christ is really present in the Eucharist. Thus the results of the poll do not show what is purported, but rather that a goodly number of Catholics are not well educated in terminology; left unanswered was what their belief actual is.

And keep in mind that the term transubstantiation did not occur until some time in the 11th century. So practically all Catholics, prior to when the term came into use, would likely have answered “wrong” according to the poll (taken in the 20th century).

For anyone needing more information, this is a matter upon which Jimmy akin has responded.

I’ve seen the 2010 study that I believe you’re referring to by Pew Research and I must admit I haven’t been able to find many recent studies. One done in 2013 (American Catholics in Transition) shows 54% of Catholics don’t believe in the Real Presence. Other studies reflect about the same percentage.

And I question if even those figures are generous. The next time you’re at Mass just observe how many people genuflect when they pass the Tabernacle. If you truly believe Jesus is present wouldn’t you at least genuflect? See how many do in your parish…and remember these people reflect active church goers.

There is a crisis of faith and I think we’re kidding ourselves if we think that’s not the case.

-Ernie-

 

[steve_b]

I suppose people have access to more than they used to such as online faith communities, podcasts and livestreams. A lot of my friends don’t see the point in my attending church where I don’t have much of a relationship with the others, I explain I am there to receive the Eucharist which you can’t just download from the internet or receive in the post. To be fair it doesn’t always feel like a group activity to me.

Yes.

Here’s the answer I give Catholics who are squishy on mass attendance

Boiling it down, when we die, and we are judged immediately, it isn’t a community/group affair. We don’t get to call a lawyer. We are judged individually by Jesus on what we did in this life. And the next life begins immediately. That’s why I personally, take the following dead seriously

The question should be why is it a mortal sin to deliberately miss mass even once. Unless of course there is a valid reason like sickness etc.

While this following scripture from Hebrews, doesn’t mention
• Mass
• Sunday
• Eucharist
• Mortal sin for deliberately missing Mass

Anybody can see what is being described. What they are doing when they meet, and what Day it is that they meet, and that there is disastrous consequences for that person if they deliberately fail to meet on “the Day” once they become knowledgeable of the truth. IOW it’s already a huge sin to not follow this command

IOW, based on the consequences, this is not a suggestion to do, but a command to do……or else

Heb 10: (all emphasis mine)
19 Therefore, brethren, since we have confidence to enter the sanctuary by the blood of Jesus, 20 by the new and living way which he opened for us through the curtain, that is, through his flesh, 21 and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22 let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. 23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for he who promised is faithful; 24 and let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works, 25 not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near. 26 For if we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a fearful prospect of judgment,and a fury of fire which will consume the adversaries. 28 A man who has violated the law of Moses dies without mercy at the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by the man who has spurned the Son of God, and profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and outraged the Spirit of grace?30 For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God."

Unpacking that

• The sanctuary = the altar, the place of sacrifice
• deliberate Failure to meet on the Day, is already a sin with huge consequences
• “the Day” = the LORD’S DAY / Sunday/ the Day Our Lord Resurrected
• “sacrifice for sin”, & “blood of the covenant” = the words Our Lord spoke instituting the Eucharist Matthew 26:28, Mark 14:24

i.e. They are celebrating the Mass on Sunday

THAT’s why those who deliberately fail to celebrate Mass (the Eucharist) on Sunday* after being given the knowledge of truth,*

• there no longer remains for Them, a sacrifice for sin
• They Spurn the Son of God
• They outrage the spirit of grace
• a fearful prospect of judgement awaits Them
• and a fury of fire will consume these adversaries

Does that sound like it’s only a suggestion to attend Mass on Sunday, or a command?

Does it sound like a venial sin to deliberately miss Mass on Sunday or a mortal sin? It’s a mortal sin

Those consequences for deliberately missing mass DESCRIBE HELL for one who dies in mortal sin,

From the CCC (Catechism of the Catholic Church)

2178 This practice of the Christian assembly dates from the beginnings of the apostolic age. The Letter to the Hebrews reminds the faithful “not to neglect to meet together, as is the habit of some, but to encourage one another.”
Tradition preserves the memory of an ever-timely exhortation: Come to Church early, approach the Lord, and confess your sins, repent in prayer. . . . Be present at the sacred and divine liturgy, conclude its prayer and do not leave before the dismissal. . . . We have often said: “This day is given to you for prayer and rest. This is the day that the Lord has made, let us rejoice and be glad in it.”

2181 The Sunday Eucharist is the foundation and confirmation of all Christian practice. For this reason the faithful are obliged to participate in the Eucharist on days of obligation, unless excused for a serious reason (for example, illness, the care of infants) or dispensed by their own
pastor. Those who deliberately fail in this obligation commit a grave sin.

Then I point out

Grave sin = mortal sin, they are synonymous.

One better not die in mortal sin

 

[Vico]

I suppose people have access to more than they used to such as online faith communities, podcasts and livestreams. A lot of my friends don’t see the point in my attending church where I don’t have much of a relationship with the others, I explain I am there to receive the Eucharist which you can’t just download from the internet or receive in the post. To be fair it doesn’t always feel like a group activity to me.

Well, I don’t mean socializing as in talking with each other (other than the kiss of peace) but common worship and giving witness to the faith.

 

[steve_b]

I think a lot us struggle to realize the difference between spiritual and emotional experiences. I think if these people could somehow instantly develop an understanding of the Eucharist then they would make the sacrifices to attend Catholic mass but that’s probably not going to happen to most people.

Re: polls
78% of Catholics don’t go to mass regularly except maybe twice a year, Christmas and Easter. If even that. Hence the nickname C & E Catholics. They are all objectively speaking, in mortal sin. If one dies in mortal sin they go straight to hell.

Those stats come from a Georgetown Univ poll. cara.georgetown.edu/frequentl…ch-statistics/

That said,

Is it any wonder, Jesus knowing all in advance, and being the one who will judge EVERYONE at their death, said, few make it to heaven. Matthew 7:14. ] That ought to scare the Hell out of everyone, with any brain cells to rub together.

add to that #86

**The real problem is, people don’t fear God OR the consequences spoken of for disobedience to His commands

An important ingredient to faith is obedience.
**

 

[MrsAngelala]

It’s not spiritually empty, it’s emotionally empty–especially for those who have no idea about the Mass, what parts are meant for what and why they are celebrated.

Interesting you say this. I have a friend who led worship ministry in a Protestant church for many years, and she shared how it was disappointing to her when someone would come up to her afterward and tell her they really “felt the Spirit” through her music. That has happened to her, and she knows what it is, so she knew it was rarely actually the case. She told me she would think, “No, I know how to manipulate the musical elements to make a single cohesive structure out of a series of 6-7 songs. That’s a hard skill with an emotional consequence. It’s not spiritual. It’s emotional! Not spiritual!”

I found this confusion between emotion and spirit very frustrating, too. One of the reasons I like Mass is that it isn’t emotionally manipulative. But, it does require patience to develop understanding and education. More emotional services *are *more easily accessible.

 

[Vico]

Interesting you say this. I have a friend who led worship ministry in a Protestant church for many years, and she shared how it was disappointing to her when someone would come up to her afterward and tell her they really “felt the Spirit” through her music. That has happened to her, and she knows what it is, so she knew it was rarely actually the case. She told me she would think, “No, I know how to manipulate the musical elements to make a single cohesive structure out of a series of 6-7 songs. That’s a hard skill with an emotional consequence. It’s not spiritual. It’s emotional! Not spiritual!”

I found this confusion between emotion and spirit very frustrating, too. One of the reasons I like Mass is that it isn’t emotionally manipulative. But, it does require patience to develop understanding and education. More emotional services *are *more easily accessible.

The Holy Spirit is experienced though ability to avoid sin and by having wisdom, understanding, discernment, courage to do what is right, knowledge, devotion to God, and the fear of separation from God.

 

[ConfusedLucy]

In defense of many of these non-attending Catholics they won’t have been catechised well and most likely won’t have a full understanding of the Eucharist. I didn’t start to appreciate this until my twenties despite Catholic school and it was pure luck that I met some very patient and faith filled people.

 

[steve_b]

In defense of many of these non-attending Catholics they won’t have been catechised well and most likely won’t have a full understanding of the Eucharist. I didn’t start to appreciate this until my twenties despite Catholic school and it was pure luck that I met some very patient and faith filled people.

IOW ignorance.

Today, Ignorance is not a given, nor easy to fall back on as an excuse,

That’s because, Information has never in history been so easy to access, as it is today. It’s almost at everyone’s fingertips. Just ask anyone with a phone, any question, they will have the answer in seconds.

From the CCC

1791 ignorance can often be imputed to personal responsibility. This is the case when a man “takes little trouble to find out what is true and good, or when conscience is by degrees almost blinded through the habit of committing sin.” In such cases, the person is culpable for the evil he commits.

 

[Della]

IOW ignorance.

Today, Ignorance is not a given, nor easy to fall back on as an excuse,

That’s because, Information has never in history been so easy to access, as it is today. It’s almost at everyone’s fingertips. Just ask anyone with a phone, any question, they will have the answer in seconds.

From the CCC

1791 ignorance can often be imputed to personal responsibility. This is the case when a man “takes little trouble to find out what is true and good, or when conscience is by degrees almost blinded through the habit of committing sin.” In such cases, the person is culpable for the evil he commits.

The thing of it is, so many don’t even know they should be seeking for the truth. They live in a relativistic society in which anyone’s and everyone’s opinions are equally valued–unless those opinions are contrary what is currently considered virtuous/good, which can be almost anything these days.

People live not just in ignorance but in profound ignorance. They don’t even have a starting point from which to ask the right questions or seek the right answers.

They’d never think of going to a Catholic website or pick up a Catholic periodical or book. It’s just not a part of their lives.

Waking them up to their need for God is like trying to tell them they need to go to the moon. The whole concept of living for God is alien, and for some, even obscene since they put the blame for every ill in the world on God or religion.

 

[steve_b]

The thing of it is, so many don’t even know they should be seeking for the truth. They live in a relativistic society in which anyone’s and everyone’s opinions are equally valued–unless those opinions are contrary what is currently considered virtuous/good, which can be almost anything these days.

People live not just in ignorance but in profound ignorance. They don’t even have a starting point from which to ask the right questions or seek the right answers.

They’d never think of going to a Catholic website or pick up a Catholic periodical or book. It’s just not a part of their lives.

Waking them up to their need for God is like trying to tell them they need to go to the moon. The whole concept of living for God is alien, and for some, even obscene since they put the blame for every ill in the world on God or religion.

And no one is stopping them from learning the truth, either…true? God is still pouring down grace on the evil as well as the good. He doesn’t force anyone to accept it. But He gives it just the same.

Thus

1791 ignorance can often be imputed to personal responsibility. This is the case ***when a man “takes little trouble to find out what is true and good, or when conscience is by degrees almost blinded through the habit of committing sin.” In such cases, the person is culpable for the evil he commits.

***Thus in such cases

culpable = guilty. They own the evil they commit. No excuses.

 

[Della]

And no one is stopping them from learning the truth, either…true? God is still pouring down grace on the evil as well as the good. He doesn’t force anyone to accept it. But He gives it just the same.

Thus

1791 ignorance can often be imputed to personal responsibility. This is the case ***when a man “takes little trouble to find out what is true and good, or when conscience is by degrees almost blinded through the habit of committing sin.” In such cases, the person is culpable for the evil he commits.

***Thus in such cases

culpable = guilty. They own the evil they commit. No excuses.

I don’t think you “get it,” my dear. These people have no more concept of “truth” than the average dog. They are immune to God’s grace because they are perfectly content or they have never had any opportunity to avail themselves of God’s grace. The latter are as culpable as someone living in the bush who has never heard of God. And thank God, their judgment, and ours, is not up to us–it’s up to God.

 

[meltzerboy]

The thing of it is, so many don’t even know they should be seeking for the truth. They live in a relativistic society in which anyone’s and everyone’s opinions are equally valued–unless those opinions are contrary what is currently considered virtuous/good, which can be almost anything these days.

People live not just in ignorance but in profound ignorance. They don’t even have a starting point from which to ask the right questions or seek the right answers.

They’d never think of going to a Catholic website or pick up a Catholic periodical or book. It’s just not a part of their lives.

Waking them up to their need for God is like trying to tell them they need to go to the moon. The whole concept of living for God is alien, and for some, even obscene since they put the blame for every ill in the world on God or religion.

I agree with what you say here, unfortunately I might add. And I think it applies to religion in general, not only Catholicism.

 

[Della]

I agree with what you say here, unfortunately I might add. And I think it applies to religion in general, not only Catholicism.

Yes, indeed it does. As you say, unfortunately true.

 

[otjm]

I’ve seen the 2010 study that I believe you’re referring to by Pew Research and I must admit I haven’t been able to find many recent studies. One done in 2013 (American Catholics in Transition) shows 54% of Catholics don’t believe in the Real Presence. Other studies reflect about the same percentage.

And I question if even those figures are generous. The next time you’re at Mass just observe how many people genuflect when they pass the Tabernacle. If you truly believe Jesus is present wouldn’t you at least genuflect? See how many do in your parish…and remember these people reflect active church goers.

There is a crisis of faith and I think we’re kidding ourselves if we think that’s not the case.

-Ernie-

Those of us who had the privilege of being taught by Sisters 6 decades ago learned a more formal respectful behavior. Life has become far more casual (noting that I live on the West Coast, which is notoriously casual). I would not take someone’s failure to genuflect as indicative of their beliefs. Our parish has had Perpetual Adoration for well over 20 years, and I have seen people come into adoration and not genuflect. I seriously doubt they are there simply to get out of the rain…

I would agree with you that there is a crisis of faith, as secularism has been winning out since the 50’s. And aside from secularism, the abysmal catechesis of the 70’s and 80’s certainly facilitated it. However, Pew Research is a non-partisan, non-advocacy public opinion research center, I do not suspect them of skewing their research; but rather suspect them of not knowing enough about Catholicism to put a lot of credence in polls which can easily be misconstrued based on poorly presented questions. Further, I would want a poll which probes a little bit deeper than just asking someone if they are “Catholic”, as the 75%+ who do not go to Mass on a weekly basis run a gamut from “I was baptized, so culturally I am Catholic” to those who were catechized at least somewhat, but are lazy/compromised in their faith, to people who go to Mass weekly but are poorly catechized, to those who “get it” and understand their faith.

 

[otjm]

IOW ignorance.

Today, Ignorance is not a given, nor easy to fall back on as an excuse,

That’s because, Information has never in history been so easy to access, as it is today. It’s almost at everyone’s fingertips. Just ask anyone with a phone, any question, they will have the answer in seconds.

From the CCC

1791 ignorance can often be imputed to personal responsibility. This is the case when a man “takes little trouble to find out what is true and good, or when conscience is by degrees almost blinded through the habit of committing sin.” In such cases, the person is culpable for the evil he commits.

You have a tremendous amount to learn about people. Ease of finding research in your case presumes an awareness of it. It also presumes that secularism is not the biggest problem influencing mankind, at least in western society.

Ultimately, the issue is God’s. But it is all too easy to sit in pseudo judgment of people, all the while protesting that we are not judging.

 

[ConfusedLucy]

I may be wrong but I think being taught a concept and then to have virtually everyone around you not take that concept seriously is worse than not being taught the concept at all.

 

[Ernie07]

Those of us who had the privilege of being taught by Sisters 6 decades ago learned a more formal respectful behavior. Life has become far more casual (noting that I live on the West Coast, which is notoriously casual). I would not take someone’s failure to genuflect as indicative of their beliefs. Our parish has had Perpetual Adoration for well over 20 years, and I have seen people come into adoration and not genuflect. I seriously doubt they are there simply to get out of the rain…

I would agree with you that there is a crisis of faith, as secularism has been winning out since the 50’s. And aside from secularism, the abysmal catechesis of the 70’s and 80’s certainly facilitated it. However, Pew Research is a non-partisan, non-advocacy public opinion research center, I do not suspect them of skewing their research; but rather suspect them of not knowing enough about Catholicism to put a lot of credence in polls which can easily be misconstrued based on poorly presented questions. Further, I would want a poll which probes a little bit deeper than just asking someone if they are “Catholic”, as the 75%+ who do not go to Mass on a weekly basis run a gamut from “I was baptized, so culturally I am Catholic” to those who were catechized at least somewhat, but are lazy/compromised in their faith, to people who go to Mass weekly but are poorly catechized, to those who “get it” and understand their faith.

My contention was that most Catholics don’t believe in the Real Presence. Studies have shown that to be true although one could argue they are old studies. I haven’t seen any more recent studies (post 2013) that depicted a greater % of Catholics now believing in the Real Presence. And in my mind if a person is baptized a Catholic then they should be included in any study of whether Catholics believe. The Church needs to look in the mirror and be held accountable for their faithful being “fallen-away”. To take responsibility for one’s failures is the only way to rectify the issue.

By adoring Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament, that in and of itself, shows a profound belief in the Real Presence. My reference to genuflecting, to be fair, was thinking about my former parish which had a separate small chapel that housed the tabernacle. You had no choice but to pass the chapel in order to enter the main sanctuary. If I said 3% of the people even gave a small nod or the slightest acknowledgement to the tabernacle as they walked by (yet alone genuflected) I’d probably be guilty of being too generous.

I’m sure if a Catholic was asked, “do you believe in the Real Presence of Jesus in the Eucharist” many, maybe even most would say, “yes”. But, how real is that “yes” response. Do you really mean it or is it simply answering a question based on how you’ve been taught? I can tell you I’m a big Detroit Lions fan, but if I don’t root for them when they play the Bears then I’m really not. Same goes for believing in the Eucharist. If you truly believe then you’d act like it…and acknowledging the tabernacle is just one way.

-Ernie-

 

[Ernie07]

I don’t think you “get it,” my dear. These people have no more concept of “truth” than the average dog. They are immune to God’s grace because they are perfectly content or they have never had any opportunity to avail themselves of God’s grace. The latter are as culpable as someone living in the bush who has never heard of God. And thank God, their judgment, and ours, is not up to us–it’s up to God.

Hi Della and Steve,

You are having an excellent discussion and I don’t want to inappropriately step in (and frankly it might be a bit off topic), but I just wanted to add something. I agree with both of you as it relates to “truth” and “ignorance” and one thing that I believe has a big impact on this is the acceptance of the “cafeteria” style Catholic. Not that the Church officially accepts this type of Catholic that picks and chooses what Catholic beliefs they will and won’t believe, but there is a lack of vigilance on this topic in my opinion.

I’d love to know what % of Catholics believe in 100% of all Church dogmas, yet alone teachings? How many truly believe in the authority of the Church? I believe a very small number and it has such a profound impact. Without 100% belief how can there be passion? Without 100% belief there is doubt…doubt in the Church’s authority and teachings, which leave a crack that can only get wider and be “that one last straw” that makes them leave the Church.

And sometimes this “cafeteria style” Catholic can come in the most innocent form. Take the Protestant vs the Catholic bible. There are many Catholics (even on this forum as I’ve debated this topic on other threads) that believe a Protestant bible is “incomplete” rather than wrong. Being politically correct has taken over for defending the truth. Believing that anything less than a 73 book bible is anathema (per the Council of Trent) is viewed today as being divisive.

We as Catholics have to stop apologizing for our great faith, stop thinking it’s divisive to proclaim the truth, and start acting like the Church Jesus established!! Then people will know what the truth is, ignorance won’t be caused due to confusion of what Catholics really believe, and the Church will grow in “on fire” Catholics.

OK, jumping off my soap box now!!!

-Ernie-