Catholics Would u go to church w\o the real presence teaching Eucharist

[Padres1969]

Hi Della and Steve,

You are having an excellent discussion and I don’t want to inappropriately step in (and frankly it might be a bit off topic), but I just wanted to add something. I agree with both of you as it relates to “truth” and “ignorance” and one thing that I believe has a big impact on this is the acceptance of the “cafeteria” style Catholic. Not that the Church officially accepts this type of Catholic that picks and chooses what Catholic beliefs they will and won’t believe, but there is a lack of vigilance on this topic in my opinion.

I’d love to know what % of Catholics believe in 100% of all Church dogmas, yet alone teachings? How many truly believe in the authority of the Church? I believe a very small number and it has such a profound impact. Without 100% belief how can there be passion? Without 100% belief there is doubt…doubt in the Church’s authority and teachings, which leave a crack that can only get wider and be “that one last straw” that makes them leave the Church.

And sometimes this “cafeteria style” Catholic can come in the most innocent form. Take the Protestant vs the Catholic bible. There are many Catholics (even on this forum as I’ve debated this topic on other threads) that believe a Protestant bible is “incomplete” rather than wrong. Being politically correct has taken over for defending the truth. Believing that anything less than a 73 book bible is anathema (per the Council of Trent) is viewed today as being divisive.

We as Catholics have to stop apologizing for our great faith, stop thinking it’s divisive to proclaim the truth, and start acting like the Church Jesus established!! Then people will know what the truth is, ignorance won’t be caused due to confusion of what Catholics really believe, and the Church will grow in “on fire” Catholics.

OK, jumping off my soap box now!!!

-Ernie-

You know, as a non-Catholic, I’d by and large agree with this. At least in so far as believing the Catholics believe that their Church is the :One True Church" and such.

I mean I’ve never known one Catholic that believes every teaching of, and by extension the full authority of, the Roman Catholic Church. Every Catholic or former Catholic I’ve known has been “Cafeteria” to some extent or another. Be it taking birth control, accepting same sex relationships, not believing the Pope to actually have any kind of right to infallibility, not believing in the real presence in Eucharist, never partaking in Confession due to not believing it necessary, not believing it matters which bible you believe in, etc…

And you’re right, by extension it’s hard to believe the RCC is truly what it claims to be when so many of its adherents and leadership don’t seem to act like it is…

Maybe a place the RCC can learn something from the non-Christians Mormons. The Mormons certainly do a better job of presenting themselves as what they believe their Church is even if they’re not Christians. Their leaders don’t really seem to compromise when it comes to core beliefs, and they instill the same in the bulk of their adherents.

 

[PJM]

if a person can’t receive the Eucharist at mass on Sunday, because of being in mortal sin, then at least they go to mass and celebrate the mass. They don’t heap mortal sin on top of mortal sin by deliberately missing mass

The question then should be why is it a mortal sin to deliberately miss mass on Sunday, even once, Unless of course there is a valid reason like sickness etc. And when did that idea start?

While this following scripture from Hebrews, doesn’t mention
• Mass
• Sunday
• Eucharist
• Mortal sin for deliberately missing Mass

Anybody can see what is being described. What they are doing when they meet, and what Day it is that they meet, and that there is disastrous consequences for that person if they deliberately fail to meet on “the Day” once they become knowledgeable of the truth. IOW it’s already a huge sin to not follow this command

IOW, based on the consequences mentioned, this is not a suggestion to do, but a command to do……or else

Heb 10: (all emphasis mine)
19 Therefore, brethren, since we have confidence to enter the sanctuary by the blood of Jesus, 20 by the new and living way which he opened for us through the curtain, that is, through his flesh, 21 and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22 let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. 23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for he who promised is faithful; 24 and let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works, 25 not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near. 26 For if we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a fearful prospect of judgment,and a fury of fire which will consume the adversaries. 28 A man who has violated the law of Moses dies without mercy at the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by the man who has spurned the Son of God, and profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and outraged the Spirit of grace?30 For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God."

Unpacking that

• The sanctuary = the place of the sacrifice, the altar,
• deliberate Failure to meet on the Day, is already a sin with huge consequences
• “the Day” = the LORD’S DAY / Sunday/ the Day Our Lord Resurrected
• “sacrifice for sin”, & “blood of the covenant” = the words Our Lord spoke instituting the Eucharist Matthew 26:28, Mark 14:24

i.e. They are celebrating the Mass on Sunday.

How do we know this?

the resurrection of Jesus, took place on Sunday. When his disciples walked with Jesus on that day of resurrection to Emmaus, Luke 24:35 They recognized Jesus in the breaking of the bread, the celebration of the Eucharist. That was the 1st mass on Sunday

THAT’s why those who deliberately fail to celebrate Mass (the Eucharist) on Sunday after being given the knowledge of truth,

The following reality takes place. Not my words but from Hebrews.

• there no longer remains for Them, a sacrifice for sin ◦ They Spurn the Son of God
• They outrage the spirit of grace
• a fearful prospect of judgement awaits Them
• and a fury of fire will consume these adversaries

Does that sound like it’s only a suggestion to attend Mass on Sunday, or a command?

Does it sound like a venial sin to deliberately miss Mass on Sunday or a mortal sin?

One only has to look at those consequences mentioned. Those consequences DESCRIBE HELL for one who dies in this mortal sin

Also

From the CCC (Catechism of the Catholic Church)

2178 This practice of the Christian assembly dates from the beginnings of the apostolic age. The Letter to the Hebrews reminds the faithful “not to neglect to meet together, as is the habit of some, but to encourage one another.”
Tradition preserves the memory of an ever-timely exhortation: Come to Church early, approach the Lord, and confess your sins, repent in prayer. . . . Be present at the sacred and divine liturgy, conclude its prayer and do not leave before the dismissal. . . . We have often said: “This day is given to you for prayer and rest. This is the day that the Lord has made, let us rejoice and be glad in it.”

2181 The Sunday Eucharist is the foundation and confirmation of all Christian practice. For this reason the faithful are obliged to participate in the Eucharist on days of obligation, unless excused for a serious reason (for example, illness, the care of infants) or dispensed by their own
pastor. Those who deliberately fail in this obligation commit a grave sin.

BTW: Grave sin = mortal sin, they are synonymous terms.

THANKS, well done!

 

[PJM]

In defense of many of these non-attending Catholics they won’t have been catechised well and most likely won’t have a full understanding of the Eucharist. I didn’t start to appreciate this until my twenties despite Catholic school and it was pure luck that I met some very patient and faith filled people.

Thank you,

However “LUCK” is ONLY a myth

Divine Providence is behind everything that happens; either by God’s Will or God’s tolerance due to man’s GIFTED Freewill:thumbsup:.

GBY

Patrick

 

[PJM]

quote Originally Posted by Vico View Post
It is always a puzzle to hear about say-at-homes avoiding public worship without a health problem or other grave reason, since group activity it is given in the New Testament: scripture reading, corporate prayer, singing psalms, hymns, and the preaching God’s Word.
Matthew 18:20 … two or three are gathered in my name, …
Ephesians 5:19 and Colossians 3:16, St. Paul says that singing psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs mark the worship of God’s people. (Historically Psalms are Jewish hymns, also the New Testament shows that the early Church sang hymns.)
Luke 22:19 - Do this in memory of me (Lord’s Supper).
I Timothy 2:1, - practice corporate prayer.
I Timothy 4:13 - public reading of Scripture is mandated
II Timothy 4:2, - preach the Word.
Acts 20:7 - The Lord’d Day is the first day of the week, when they break bread.

Scriptures in the Mass

catholicbible101.com/scriptureinthemass.htm end quote

I suppose people have access to more than they used to such as online faith communities, podcasts and livestreams. A lot of my friends don’t see the point in my attending church where I don’t have much of a relationship with the others, I explain I am there to receive the Eucharist which you can’t just download from the internet or receive in the post. To be fair it doesn’t always feel like a group activity to me.

An EXCUSE is only that: an excuse, not a valid reason. AMEN!

 

[Gorgias]

"Padres1969:

Funny, it was getting deep into history that led me to repudiate the Roman Catholic Church.

Interesting assertion. Feel like elaborating?

As a Catholic university trained historian by trade I know what I went by.

So… you’re claiming that a Catholic university trained you in such a way so as to facilitate you “repudiating the Roman Catholic Church”?

That seems – at the very best – to be quite the self-contradiction! Now… maybe the training you received wasn’t as good as you suggest, or maybe you didn’t learn what they were teaching, but… really? Doesn’t quite hold water…

 

[Padres1969]

Interesting assertion. Feel like elaborating?

So… you’re claiming that a Catholic university trained you in such a way so as to facilitate you “repudiating the Roman Catholic Church”?

That seems – at the very best – to be quite the self-contradiction! Now… maybe the training you received wasn’t as good as you suggest, or maybe you didn’t learn what they were teaching, but… really? Doesn’t quite hold water… :shrug:

It does if you accept that a Catholic University doesn’t teach Catholic positions on Catholicism and Religion any longer.

 

[Ernie07]

You know, as a non-Catholic, I’d by and large agree with this. At least in so far as believing the Catholics believe that their Church is the :One True Church" and such.

I mean I’ve never known one Catholic that believes every teaching of, and by extension the full authority of, the Roman Catholic Church. Every Catholic or former Catholic I’ve known has been “Cafeteria” to some extent or another. Be it taking birth control, accepting same sex relationships, not believing the Pope to actually have any kind of right to infallibility, not believing in the real presence in Eucharist, never partaking in Confession due to not believing it necessary, not believing it matters which bible you believe in, etc…

And you’re right, by extension it’s hard to believe the RCC is truly what it claims to be when so many of its adherents and leadership don’t seem to act like it is…

Maybe a place the RCC can learn something from the non-Christians Mormons. The Mormons certainly do a better job of presenting themselves as what they believe their Church is even if they’re not Christians. Their leaders don’t really seem to compromise when it comes to core beliefs, and they instill the same in the bulk of their adherents.

Hi Padres,

Thank you for the dialogue. What makes your statement that I bolded so sad to me is that rather than addressing this issue that every Church leader must know is true, they support programs in the name of evangelization that only exacerbate the problem. Not being a Church leader it’s easy (and maybe a little unfair) for me to criticize, but the Church needs to stop focusing on “expanding the tent” and get our own house in order. We’re cowing to this culture of inclusiveness and thus losing who we are. If I was a non-Catholic like you I’d have more respect for a faith that tells it like it is regardless of who it may offend rather than dumbing down the faith in order to not offend.

To me, I saw the same thing on some sports teams or companies that I worked for…playing or managing scared. In the Church’s case I honestly think there is fear of losing more members if they’re tough on the faithful and this fear causes them to lose their nerve to do what is right but hard. And oddly enough this only enables more spiraling.

I think the Catholic Church can learn from whomever necessary and I suggest from itself. The Church was losing its way in the 1600’s, which precipitated the Reformation. Rather than be cowed the Church doubled down on its core beliefs. I’d like to see that same kind of conviction from our leaders now.

I’m also very much looking forward to any “debate” you may have with some others on this thread related to church history. Church history is the main reason why I’m Catholic so I’d love to hear your thoughts otherwise!

Thanks!

-Ernie-

 

[Della]

It does if you accept that a Catholic University doesn’t teach Catholic positions on Catholicism and Religion any longer.

If true, then it was hardly reliable was it?

You wrote in another post that it’s telling that so many Catholics don’t believe everything the Church teaches. I knew that was true nearly 30 years ago, and knowing that, I still became a Catholic because the Church is Christ own divine institution, not mans.

I’m hardly surprised that so many reject, or merely ignore, Church teachings when her enemies have increased over the years to include almost as many on the inside as on the outside. And you know why that is? Because Satan knows his time is short. He has to do all he can to destroy the hope of salvation for as many as possible.

Still, Jesus told us this would happen, so we can’t be surprised by it. We Catholics who hold to the truth have to, all the more, be faithful to Christ’s Church and be good witnesses to her in the world.

 

[Gorgias]

Padres1969:

It does if you accept that a Catholic University doesn’t teach Catholic positions on Catholicism and Religion any longer.

If true, then it was hardly reliable was it?

That’s what I was thinking, too. [user]Padres1969[/user], if you weren’t really taught the positions that the Catholic Church holds, especially vis-a-vis history, how can you say that it was what you learned that caused you to ‘repudiate Church teachings’?

 

[Padres1969]

That’s what I was thinking, too. [user]Padres1969[/user], if you weren’t really taught the positions that the Catholic Church holds, especially vis-a-vis history, how can you say that it was what you learned that caused you to ‘repudiate Church teachings’?

Because the Catholic position on points of its own history is not the only position… nor necessarily the most reliable one for starters.

 

[Della]

Because the Catholic position on points of its own history is not the only position…

Of course not. There aren’t a few disputes among those who do not believe in the veracity of the Church–there are thousands. No surprise there when men will want things their own way.

nor necessarily the most reliable one for starters.

Unreliable in what way?

You know, men naturally believe what is most comfortable for them to believe. Believing what requires God to be God and man not to be God–that takes faith. And isn’t religion about faith?

 

[Gorgias]

Della keeps beating me to the punch. She makes good points…

Padres1969:

Because the Catholic position on points of its own history is not the only position…

Of course not.

Padres,

You’ve made the point that you’re a ‘historian’ – not just someone who studied history as an undergrad (after all, I took the required chemistry class my freshman year in college, but that doesn’t qualify me as a ‘chemist’) – so, since your assertion seems to imply that (at the least) you were a history major in undergrad, I’m more than a bit confused. What historian out there (worth his salt) presumes that, on any historical event, there’s only one position?

After all, that doesn’t say anything about the event! Rather, it speaks to observers’ reactions to the event!

So, we would expect there to be a variety of reactions to the events in the history of the Catholic Church. Why would the fact of the presence of these reactions make you disbelieve?

 

[zab]

You know, as a non-Catholic, I’d by and large agree with this. At least in so far as believing the Catholics believe that their Church is the :One True Church" and such.

---

And you’re right, by extension it’s hard to believe the RCC is truly what it claims to be when so many of its adherents and leadership don’t seem to act like it is…
I mean I’ve never known one Catholic that believes every teaching of, and by extension the full authority of, the Roman Catholic Church. Every Catholic or former Catholic I’ve known has been “Cafeteria” to some extent or another. Be it taking birth control, accepting same sex relationships, not believing the Pope to actually have any kind of right to infallibility, not believing in the real presence in Eucharist, never partaking in Confession due to not believing it necessary, not believing it matters which bible you believe in, etc…

Maybe a place the RCC can learn something from the non-Christians Mormons. The Mormons certainly do a better job of presenting themselves as what they believe their Church is even if they’re not Christians. Their leaders don’t really seem to compromise when it comes to core beliefs, and they instill the same in the bulk of their adherents.

Let me assure you that we are here. Many of us do believe all the teachings of the Catholic Church and practice our Faith.

 

[mmldwheel40]

Let me assure you that we are here. Many of us do believe all the teachings of the Catholic Church and practice our Faith.

Originally I was bought up in a Catholic School, when I was around 6 ot 7 years old. I was taught all the teachings of the Catholic Church and Faith, but until a few years ago, I didn’t understand all the Sacraments.
Before becoming Catholic, I used to be a Methodist.
Last year, I started understanding the sacraments and I believe in all the teachings of the Catholic Church and practice our faith.
At the Methodist Church I came from, there is a weekly Women’s Fellowship during term time where women Christians come to meet to listen to a speaker, sing a couple of Hymns abd say a prayer. One of the speakers was the Priest from the Catholic Church and at the end of his talk, he said ‘After all, we worship the same God.’ Which I believe, it is the Holy Communion (Eucharist) that’s different in the different Christian Churches.
Although I still help out at the Methodist Church some Sundays, I have to make sure that I go to my local Catholic Church to experience the real presence of our Lord. Sometimes I go to the Saturday Vigil in case I can’t get there on Sunday. The real presence of our Lord is vital to me.

 

[steve_b]

I don’t think you “get it,” my dear. These people have no more concept of “truth” than the average dog.

I think we are talking about different people…my dear

God doesn’t send a dog to hell.

So why do few people make it to heaven?
D:

They are immune to God’s grace because they are perfectly content or they have never had any opportunity to avail themselves of God’s grace.

The latter are as culpable as someone living in the bush who has never heard of God. And thank God, their judgment, and ours, is not up to us–it’s up to God.

The VAST majority of people on this planet don’t live in the bush. By 2020 it’s estimated that 6.1 billion people will have smartphones. Double of what it is today. THAT shows how readily available information is today for the vast number of people on the planet. I’m mindful of the days when we had to go to the library for research. Now all information is at one’s fingertips.

 

[meltzerboy]

I think we are talking about different people…my dear

God doesn’t send a dog to hell.

So why do few people make it to heaven?

The VAST majority of people on this planet don’t live in the bush. By 2020 it’s estimated that 6.1 billion people will have smartphones. Double of what it is today. THAT shows how readily available information is today for the vast number of people on the planet. I’m mindful of the days when we had to go to the library for research. Now all information is at one’s fingertips.

At the same time, however, we have TOO MUCH information to read and sift through, much of which is conflicting information. That can also be a disadvantage insofar as ascertaining the truth is concerned.

 

[steve_b]

At the same time, however, we have TOO MUCH information to read and sift through, much of which is conflicting information. That can also be a disadvantage insofar as ascertaining the truth is concerned.

okay, let’s test that out.

What information specifically would you like to know, that you feel is sooooo conflicted, it is impossible to know what to think?

 

[meltzerboy]

okay, let’s test that out.

What information specifically would you like to know, that you feel is sooooo conflicted, it is impossible to know what to think?

To take just one of hundreds of examples, there are historical and modern theories and philosophies regarding crime, at least a dozen or more such theories which do not necessarily complement one another but take us in different directions. Check it out: they are easily accessible online.

 

[steve_b]

To take just one of hundreds of examples,

Good,

one will do
m:

there are historical and modern theories and philosophies regarding crime, at least a dozen or more such theories which do not necessarily complement one another but take us in different directions. Check it out: they are easily accessible online.

check it out? Do you have something in mind?
Just one will do.

 

[Della]

I think we are talking about different people…my dear

God doesn’t send a dog to hell.

No need to be facetious.

So why do few people make it to heaven?

And you know how many make it to heaven. I’d like to know how you know the numbers that are/aren’t there?

The VAST majority of people on this planet don’t live in the bush. By 2020 it’s estimated that 6.1 billion people will have smartphones. Double of what it is today. THAT shows how readily available information is today for the vast number of people on the planet. I’m mindful of the days when we had to go to the library for research. Now all information is at one’s fingertips.

You entirely missed the point–I hope not deliberately. I wrote that many people are as ignorant of religion as those living in the bush. Indeed, most moderns in our well-populated cities have less religion that those living in the bush. No matter what information they have at their fingertips, if they don’t know they need it, they won’t bother looking for it.

Therefore, we must evangelize. So, the onus is more on us than on them. Therefore, if you and I aren’t doing our part to make people aware of their need of God, God will hold us responsible. I think that’s what we ought to be more concerned about than how many people have access to information.