Catholocism the only true choice

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Estesbob, you gotta get past the fact that there are many different branches of prodestantism. God created the world with some manner of diversity in mind. Were this not true then there would be no different ethnicities. God created each of us differently with very different needs. Such a diversity of different takes on how to follow Christ flings the doors wide open to allow different people to sincerely come to Christ Jesus and know the lord God in their own way. Granted, with such division, there is an innate danger of corruption. We Catholics with our vast size and atocricy are subject to a similar type of corruption. The reason that people sometimes bounce around isn’t because they are looking for a church that allows them to follow their own sin lifestyles. It’s because they are searching for a place that speaks to their hearts. (You may be alarmed to find that most prodestants i’ve associated with are generally on the same page when it comes to what matters in the Christian faith.)

This variety is also important because it gives people a way to flee from corrupt teaching. Be aware that our leadership is not free from such things - corrupted teaching exists within our own church as well. I had a priest visit our parish once who was convinced that we were not true christians if we didn’t go to his ‘laying of hands’ type healing service. This isn’t the first time my local parish has brought in speakers like this.

I think it would be good for you to try visiting a local prodestant church. Go with an open mind, looking to gain new perspective - you may come out pleasantly surprised.

Oh, by the way, the book of Ephesians spells out quite plainly what is neccessary for salvation. Most if not all Christian groups conform to what it says. They get off however on the details and supporting ideas associated with this book.
 
LilyM said:
God changes His mind? You mean He at times doesn’t think correctly and needs to adjust His thinking? Perfect understanding, perfect thought, is that which needs no change or alteration, because no eventuality is unknown to it, or a surprise to it. To suggest that God changes His mind is to say that God is flawed and that God isn’t omniscient.
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To say that God can’t change His mind limits God in a ridiculous way. God can do whatever God wants to do including changing His mind. And He changed His mind more than once in the Old Testament.
He treats different people differently? If you mean He excuses any of them from making their utmost effort to come to a true (as in the one truth) understanding of Him then no.
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I mean stuff like he kills some people and not others. He commands people to kill people. That is pretty different treatment I reckon. Heck, have you ever wondered why God heals some people and not others? Pretty different treatment. eh?
He WANTS us to know the whole truth, remember - ‘you shall know the truth, and the truth will set you free’.
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Then he should be more clear. Maybe set up a web site.
 
LilyM,
Didn’t God change his mind repeatedly in the Old Testament? Does he not listen to the pleas of humanity? Genesis 19 has repeated instances of God listening and modifiying his plan based upon the pleas of his people.
 
Namesake said:
To say that God can’t change His mind limits God in a ridiculous way. God can do whatever God wants to do including changing His mind. And He changed His mind more than once in the Old Testament.
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I’m not saying He can’t change, I’m saying He doesn’t - because He is perfect in every way, change comes when one lacks perfection and desires to be more perfect in some way. As for changing his mind - ‘The LORD has sworn, and WILL NOT CHANGE …’ (Psalm 110:4) - any Bible passages suggesting otherwise do so because of the limitations of the human writers, who ascribe those sort of human frailties like changeability to God.
I mean stuff like he kills some people and not others. He commands people to kill people. That is pretty different treatment I reckon. Heck, have you ever wondered why God heals some people and not others? Pretty different treatment. eh?
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He kills everyone (if you must phrase it in such a way) - meaning we all die. We die in different ways, to be sure, but the end result is the same, all die. And the end each of us has is the end God has known we would have from the beginning.

And we all suffer, some from illnesses, others in other ways. That too is the same for each of us. He doesn’t change and doesn’t particularly treat us differently, in the end all suffer and all die. 🤷
Then he should be more clear. Maybe set up a web site.
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He gave us Christ who gave us the Church, which gives us Tradition, Scripture and Magisterial Teaching - how much more clarity to you need? How much more clarity could He really provide, given our natural human stubborness and silliness and tendency to fruitless disputation among ourselves?
 
Kronotaur said:
LilyM,
Didn’t God change his mind repeatedly in the Old Testament? Does he not listen to the pleas of humanity? Genesis 19 has repeated instances of God listening and modifiying his plan based upon the pleas of his people.
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Nope. God has always, from all eternity, known exactly what those people would ask and known what His response would be. How does that in any way equate to changing either His mind or His plans?
 
LilyM said:
I’m not saying He can’t change, I’m saying He doesn’t - because He is perfect in every way, change comes when one lacks perfection and desires to be more perfect in some way. As for changing his mind - ‘The LORD has sworn, and WILL NOT CHANGE …’ (Psalm 110:4) - any Bible passages suggesting otherwise do so because of the limitations of the human writers, who ascribe those sort of human frailties like changeability to God.

He kills everyone (if you must phrase it in such a way) - meaning we all die. We die in different ways, to be sure, but the end result is the same, all die. And the end each of us has is the end God has known we would have from the beginning.

And we all suffer, some from illnesses, others in other ways. That too is the same for each of us. He doesn’t change and doesn’t particularly treat us differently, in the end all suffer and all die. 🤷

He gave us Christ who gave us the Church, which gives us Tradition, Scripture and Magisterial Teaching - how much more clarity to you need? How much more clarity could He really provide, given our natural human stubborness and silliness and tendency to fruitless disputation among ourselves?
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God changed things when He sent Jesus. The Old Testament laws were no longer in force. God changed the whole game plan. In Leviticus He commanded stuff that Jesus changed. No more of that old stuff. The new stuff ruled. That’s big time change and it is a good change because I don’t think many people would want to follow all that burnt offering stuff, etc.
 
Namesake said:
God changed things when He sent Jesus. The Old Testament laws were no longer in force. God changed the whole game plan. In Leviticus He commanded stuff that Jesus changed. No more of that old stuff. The new stuff ruled. That’s big time change and it is a good change because I don’t think many people would want to follow all that burnt offering stuff, etc.
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Again - every single one of these developments was planned by God from before the beginning of the world. He didn’t change His mind about a single one of them. He always knew the way things were going to progress.

Didn’t He tell Adam and Eve in the very Garden that He was going to send Christ of a virgin (‘seed of the woman’ because He wasn’t seed of a man)? Where’s the change in that then?

Didn’t Jesus himself say He came not to abolish (change) a jot or tittle of the OT law, remember, rather to fulfil it? Where’s the ‘changing His mind’ about the law there?

And wasn’t Jesus’ sacrifice after all merely the PERFECT blood (animal if you will, or ‘burnt offering’) sacrifice because it was the only one that could be both eternally and universally effective?

So none of these are real changes. Now on the other hand if He’d said He was going to send Christ and didnt, or if He’d NOT required a blood sacrifice of Christ corresponding to the blood sacrifices of the OT, THAT would’ve been changing His mind.
 
LilyM said:
Again - every single one of these things was planned by God from before the beginning of the world. He didn’t change His mind about a single one of them.

Didn’t He tell Adam and Eve in the very Garden that He was going to send Christ of a virgin (‘seed of the woman’ because He wasn’t seed of a man)? Where’s the change in that then?

Didn’t Jesus himself say He came not to abolish (change) a jot or tittle of the OT law, remember, rather to fulfil it? Where’s the ‘changing His mind’ about the law there?

And wasn’t Jesus’ sacrifice after all merely the PERFECT blood (animal if you will, or ‘burnt offering’) sacrifice because it was the only one that could be both eternally and universally effective?

So none of these are real changes. Now on the other hand if He’d said He was going to send Christ and didnt, or if He’d NOT required a blood sacrifice of Christ corresponding to the blood sacrifices of the OT, THAT would’ve been changing His mind.
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Have it your way and may God bless you in your understanding and increase that for you.
 
Namesake said:
Have it your way and may God bless you in your understanding and increase that for you.
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No, I have it God’s way - He is omniscient and perfect and thus His plans never change because being perfect and omniscient He neither desires nor needs to change in the slightest particular.

God bless, praying for an incease in your understanding too.
 
Your taking Psalm110:4 slightly out of context… It’s telling the reader that the Lord in this instance has sworn an oath and will not take it back… more of a promise of support for a particular King who found favor with the Lord.

It’s not however, a blanket overture of God’s relation with each of us.

To be able to say that I know with absolute certainty what God was and is thinking would be a lie at best. I do however have what the Bible tells me of such things and I have what Jesus tells me of such things.
Granted, God did change everything when Jesus was sent to earth. That does not mean however, that it is advisable to completely forsake the Old Testament. It was far more complex than a simple out the old and in with the new.

Jesus consistently demonstrated purpose over practice as well as a general re-defining of our understanding of why God does what he does. Jesus reiterates and hammers home the concept of a spirit of love to drive one’s actions. He showed us what God wants most from us. Not practices of pentence but a life style of genuine love for the Father and for our neighbors.
 
Namesake said:
Have it your way and may God bless you in your understanding and increase that for you.
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The problem is you want it “your way” You have deemed to ignore all who wnet before you to create your own god in your own image and likeness. A god who, surprise, agrees with you on everything!
 
Kronotaur said:
Your taking Psalm110:4 slightly out of context… It’s telling the reader that the Lord in this instance has sworn an oath and will not take it back… more of a promise of support for a particular King who found favor with the Lord.

It’s not however, a blanket overture of God’s relation with each of us.

To be able to say that I know with absolute certainty what God was and is thinking would be a lie at best. I do however have what the Bible tells me of such things and I have what Jesus tells me of such things.
Granted, God did change everything when Jesus was sent to earth. That does not mean however, that it is advisable to completely forsake the Old Testament. It was far more complex than a simple out the old and in with the new.

Jesus consistently demonstrated purpose over practice as well as a general re-defining of our understanding of why God does what he does. Jesus reiterates and hammers home the concept of a spirit of love to drive one’s actions. He showed us what God wants most from us. Not practices of pentence but a life style of genuine love for the Father and for our neighbors.
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Jesus being God, Jesus told us exactly what God thinks, the Bible being God’s word also teaches us what He things, and teaches among other things:

Malachi 3:6: “I the LORD do not change. So you, O descendants of Jacob, are not destroyed.”

James 1:17: “Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows.”

Numbers 23:19: “God is not a man, that He should lie, nor a son of man, that He should change His mind. Does He speak and then not act? Does He promise and not fulfill?”
 
Kronotaur said:
Granted, God did change everything when Jesus was sent to earth. That does not mean however, that it is advisable to completely forsake the Old Testament. It was far more complex than a simple out the old and in with the new.

Jesus consistently demonstrated purpose over practice as well as a general re-defining of our understanding of why God does what he does. Jesus reiterates and hammers home the concept of a spirit of love to drive one’s actions. He showed us what God wants most from us. Not practices of pentence but a life style of genuine love for the Father and for our neighbors.
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Basically the god of the Old Testament was a nasty guy and not worthy of following. Killing, inciting incest, all sorts of really bad stuff, destroyed all the people including infants…bad guy. I mean, just what did those little babies at their mothers breasts do to deserve that? The New Testament brought a very refreshing change, a loving God. It was way over due and badly needed. The old guy couldn’t be loved but the new guy is alright.
 
When it comes to God changing his mind, I’m not saying that he is completely wiping the slate clean and starting over. I’m not saying that God always does what we ask. I am however saying that God can do pretty much what God wants. If it so pleases him to to hear our pleas, and change the course of what’s been written, then so be it.

LilyM, what is your take on this concept - If the end of the world is already written, with all the subchapters completely filled in, then what does that make of us even attempting to get God to hear our pleas? Why do we even bother to pray if the ledger is set? Why do we even bother attempting to save people if their fates have already been set? If the book of the world is already recorded, then surely there is no point in even trying to gain God’s favor because those who are predestined will go to Heaven regardless of our efforts.

Well, which is it then? I don’t mean to cause you any insult - only to show what calvanistic thinking fully entails.
 
Namesake, you completely missunderstand me.

Generally speaking, the OT shows a loving and just God that has to firm with a group of people who continually don’t get behind him. A dark persona has always been attributed to him for his harsh treatments and justice. However, people need dramatic examples to shake them out of their disillusions. Consider the nature of the Jewish mindset at that time from directly after the Exoduos and on - they were Slaves who were forced into servitude in Egypt for many years. Forcing someone into indentured servitude is never a very good way to develop positive, good attitudes.

Nothing in the OT happened without a purpose - and it was always for the long term benifit of the world. In God’s infinite wisdom, he ordained that his Christ Jesus wouldn’t enter the world until a specific time was met. When God moved the pieces to make that point arive, he brought his Son into the world in fulfilment of the Scriptures. It’s not hard to see why God chose the time he did to send Jesus. The Roman empire - the largest and wealthiest up to that point was occupying Isreal. Though that empire would eventually fall, because of Roman influence, the teachings of Christ were spread throught the world.

Here’s my take on the affore mentioned question - God definitely puts the pieces into place, but he seems to leave the leading of individual lives up to us.
 
God CHANGED His Mind?!!??

Please research some more into the subject.

Is our hope then in peril of the possibility that He will Change His Mind again and just forsake us? He is not to be EQUATED to human kings who can do what they like BECAUSE they are kings!!

I have seen the arguments that He changed His Mind in the OT.
**HE DID NOT !! **

From the pleas of His people He ‘stayed’ His Hand out of the MERCY He has ALWAYS stated He possess. But He stipulated THE RULES for them to follow as a subsequence…

…UNTIL THE FAMOUS JEW ARRIVED!

:cool:
 
Kronotaur said:
When it comes to God changing his mind, I’m not saying that he is completely wiping the slate clean and starting over. I’m not saying that God always does what we ask. I am however saying that God can do pretty much what God wants. If it so pleases him to to hear our pleas, and change the course of what’s been written, then so be it.

LilyM, what is your take on this concept - If the end of the world is already written, with all the subchapters completely filled in, then what does that make of us even attempting to get God to hear our pleas? Why do we even bother to pray if the ledger is set? Why do we even bother attempting to save people if their fates have already been set? If the book of the world is already recorded, then surely there is no point in even trying to gain God’s favor because those who are predestined will go to Heaven regardless of our efforts.

Well, which is it then? I don’t mean to cause you any insult - only to show what calvanistic thinking fully entails.
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Of course God hears our pleas - He knows, and takes account of, what we will ask before we even ask it.

You need to understand the difference between omniscience or pre-knowledge and predestination. Knowing that something is certainly going to happen is different from making it happen.

I may know, for example, that if we go to the mall my child is going to want to see the animals in the pet store, and that to do so always makes her happy. Because I love her and want to see her happy, I decide that yes, we will go to the mall and yes, I will let her stop and see the animals when she asks as she inevitably will. At the same time I’m not at any stage MAKING her ask, it is her free choice to do so.

Notice - I didn’t ignore or negate her pleas, I instead anticipated them and factored them into my decisions in a positive way before she herself was even aware that she would ask.
 
Good analogy, I suppose all that is true. Still though, If God doesn’t change his mind on certain things, then how is it that people can come to be saved? Doesn’t the act of giving forgiveness imply that God has changed his will towards a certain person? Deconi, if you could please elaborate more about the arguements from the old testament and on why God did not ever change his mind, I would be very grateful.
 
Swan said:
I like that analogy about putting God in a box. Some folks think outside the box (like me), but God is still there for us. After all, he made us this way. If everyone was the same Baskin Robbins would only sell vanilla. We are all different, with different likes, prefernces, needs. God knows that and comes to us in the way that works for us on an individual level. It’s not about mass consumption, bringing it down to the lowest common demoniator. God is not so narrow, so limited. No one has God in a box.:cool:
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No Swan you are wrong. God didn’t want different “flavours” of His Church. We are the “flavours” and we seek unity and truth. You can’t get different flavours of truth. Truth is one. This is not a narrow view.

We should strive to be united in Faith. Relativism is dangerous and does not unite us.

C’mon Swan, THINK and above all pray that you will come to see eye to eye with Jesus and His Church.

Cinette:

juggle: 😉 :hmmm:
 
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