Caught between East and West

[MontChevalier]

I’m a convert from Orthodoxy to Catholicism… what I do is I just hope and pray for reunion of the two churches, and the way I see the Orthodox is yes God works in their lives too, - because they love Him and are seeking Him, and we’re not any better than the Orthodox the difference is that they’re in schism from Rome, but - I think most Orthodox have not rejected the Catholic Church, they are just trying to work out their salvation like us. What I’m trying to get at here is that yes the church is in schism, but God can work in the lives of the individuals (despite the schism not because of it), and they have valid Sacraments, and devotion to Mary. So they are much closer to the Catholic Church than the Protestants are.

God bless!

THIS!

See that? That’s what I’ve been trying to tell people for a long time. Thanks for putting it up.

-MontChevalier

 

[josephback]

Our faith is still one. What divides us are petty little things in the grand scheme of things. We are still one Church even though many actively deny it.

You’re right that what divides us is pretty small. But the question is, what is the teaching of the Catholic Church on this? That’s the answer to the question:thumbsup:

 

[ciero]

You’re right that what divides us is pretty small. But the question is, what is the teaching of the Catholic Church on this? That’s the answer to the question:thumbsup:

The answer to that is…the Orthodox church has valid sacraments…now how can a church have valid sacraments and not be part of THE church? What divides us is POLITICAL and that is it!

 

[ChrisRedfield47]

Hi there, I read about your thread and well I wanted to send you something to your email…
Its information that could help you in depth to understand papacy. I know u recognize our church to be the true One, But I feel like sending you something I compiled myself…
If u wish to have it send me your email mine is diddykong8775@hotmail.com

 

[Hesychios]

You know, God was behind the division between Judah/Israel, but it was a judgement for Solomon’s sins. Jesus prayed that the Church would be one. To say that two visibly separated churches can still be part of one larger Church just sounds a little too Protestant for me. It doesn’t mean that God can’t work outside the Catholic Church. But the Church is the Church.

Our faith is still one. What divides us are petty little things in the grand scheme of things. We are still one Church even though many actively deny it.

You’re right that what divides us is pretty small. But the question is, what is the teaching of the Catholic Church on this? That’s the answer to the question:thumbsup:

Monica4316;8388503:

… the way I see the Orthodox is yes God works in their lives too, - because they love Him and are seeking Him, and we’re not any better than the Orthodox the difference is that they’re in schism from Rome, but - I think most Orthodox have not rejected the Catholic Church, they are just trying to work out their salvation like us. What I’m trying to get at here is that yes the church is in schism, but God can work in the lives of the individuals (despite the schism not because of it), and they have valid Sacraments, and devotion to Mary. So they are much closer to the Catholic Church than the Protestants are.

God bless!

See that? That’s what I’ve been trying to tell people for a long time. Thanks for putting it up.

Pope Eugene:

It [The sacrosanct Roman Church …] firmly believes, professes, and proclaims that those not living within the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics cannot become participants in eternal life, but will depart “into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels” [Matt. 25:41], unless before the end of life the same have been added to the flock; and that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is so strong that only to those remaining in it are the sacraments of the Church of benefit for salvation, and do fastings, almsgiving, and other functions of piety and exercises of Christian service produce eternal reward, and that no one, whatever almsgiving he has practiced, even if he has shed blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he has remained in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.

 

[Jen929]

You know, God was behind the division between Judah/Israel, but it was a judgement for Solomon’s sins. Jesus prayed that the Church would be one. To say that two visibly separated churches can still be part of one larger Church just sounds a little too Protestant for me. It doesn’t mean that God can’t work outside the Catholic Church. But the Church is the Church.

The same can be said for the various rites within Catholicsm, no?

 

[josephback]

The same can be said for the various rites within Catholicsm, no?

The various rites of Catholicism are unified under the Pope. But the Eastern Orthodox reject the Pope as head of the Church. This is a rather big disagreement to have if we are all one big happy Church. I agree with others that the schism must be overcome, but to pretend that it doesn’t exist is blind. Rome and the majority of the East are not in union with each other. One or the other broke away and is in schism. Or do we contend that the Church is divided?

 

[Hesychios]

The various rites of Catholicism are unified under the Pope. But the Eastern Orthodox reject the Pope as head of the Church. This is a rather big disagreement to have if we are all one big happy Church. I agree with others that the schism must be overcome, but to pretend that it doesn’t exist is blind. Rome and the majority of the East are not in union with each other. One or the other broke away and is in schism. Or do we contend that the Church is divided?

An interesting historical precedent can be the Great Western Schism.

There were (first two, then …} three separate Roman Catholic churches. This was a genuine schism every bit as real as the one with the Orthodox, perhaps even more serious considering the contention each party was making about legitimate authority.

Now one can say that there was only one true Pope (if we go that way for arguments sake) and two ‘anti-Popes’, but this is the real interesting and significant part: there were three different synods of bishops and three different colleges of Cardinals. Perhaps two-thirds of whom (most, at least) were named and installed by men other than the ‘real’ line of Popes.

To resolve that schism, (one which did massive damage to the church lasting even to today) they had to all sit down together and recognize one another as true and legitimate Catholic clergy and bishops. Even the Cardinals, who were actually charged with the election of a new Pope, were mostly put in place by men we would find out later are not to be considered real Popes after all, but they all got their votes in (though by today’s standards one could argue that they were not legitimate and had no rights). The church today has canonized saints from both factions.

The situation was confused, to be sure. It was probably a more serious situation than what we find ourselves in today. By mutual recognition and respect, they were able to sit together and overcome schism, and yes, they had to admit to themselves and one another that the true church was indeed divided…

 

[josephback]

An interesting historical precedent can be the Great Western Schism.

There were (first two, then …} three separate Roman Catholic churches. This was a genuine schism every bit as real as the one with the Orthodox, perhaps even more serious considering the contention each party was making about legitimate authority.

Now one can say that there was only one true Pope (if we go that way for arguments sake) and two ‘anti-Popes’, but this is the real interesting and significant part: there were three different synods of bishops and three different colleges of Cardinals. Perhaps two-thirds of whom (most, at least) were named and installed by men other than the ‘real’ line of Popes…They had to admit to themselves and one another that the true church was indeed divided…

Interesting history lesson It would be great to see Rome and the East reunite.

 

[Marcarios]

The schism is undone when people choose not to be conditioned by its effects. No one chooses to cut off an arm or a leg…But from the history that I have read concerning it I dont even think a lot of people realized there even was a schism for centuries. People in the East were under Turkish Domination, and people in the West were preoccupied with all the changes with Western Society. Reformation, Enlightenment, Revolution. The West forgot about the East . The West thanks to Liberalism has lost whatever roots its had to the past, but I think because the East was isolated for so long it can help the West in recovering its roots because thanks to this isolation it forced the East to preserve . Preservation will lead to Restoration , and Reaffirmation of the West against the heresy of liberalism and multiculturalism

 

[ciero]

The schism is undone when people choose not to be conditioned by its effects. No one chooses to cut off an arm or a leg…But from the history that I have read concerning it I dont even think a lot of people realized there even was a schism for centuries. People in the East were under Turkish Domination, and people in the West were preoccupied with all the changes with Western Society. Reformation, Enlightenment, Revolution. The West forgot about the East . The West thanks to Liberalism has lost whatever roots its had to the past, but I think because the East was isolated for so long it can help the West in recovering its roots because thanks to this isolation it forced the East to preserve . Preservation will lead to Restoration , and Reaffirmation of the West against the heresy of liberalism and multiculturalism

Amen!! Great post Marcarios!!

 

[MontChevalier]

The schism is undone when people choose not to be conditioned by its effects. No one chooses to cut off an arm or a leg…But from the history that I have read concerning it I dont even think a lot of people realized there even was a schism for centuries. People in the East were under Turkish Domination, and people in the West were preoccupied with all the changes with Western Society. Reformation, Enlightenment, Revolution. The West forgot about the East . The West thanks to Liberalism has lost whatever roots its had to the past, but I think because the East was isolated for so long it can help the West in recovering its roots because thanks to this isolation it forced the East to preserve . Preservation will lead to Restoration , and Reaffirmation of the West against the heresy of liberalism and multiculturalism

Amen Amen!

 

[Fone_Bone_2001]

A heads up - if you want to attend an Oriental Orthdox Church, the Syriac Orthodox and the Malankara Syrian Orthodox Church (not to be confused with the Syrian Malankara Orthodox Church) have very good relations with the Catholic Church, and have an official agreement for pastoral sharing of the Sacraments. Speak to the priest.

Wow, I didn’t know that - that’s fantastic!

I often ask myself this same question. If we really believe that Christ is present on the altar in the RC church AND on the altar in the Orthodox churches where is the schism? The schism is OUR doing and we must overcome this schism. IMHO God sees no schism.

You know, I think I feel similarly, ciero! Well said.

 

[Formosus]

A heads up - if you want to attend an Oriental Orthdox Church, the Syriac Orthodox and the Malankara Syrian Orthodox Church (not to be confused with the Syrian Malankara Orthodox Church) have very good relations with the Catholic Church, and have an official agreement for pastoral sharing of the Sacraments. Speak to the priest.

Blessings,
Marduk

Which one is which . There is an Indian Orthodox Church nearby that I attended recently to experience the Malankaran tradition, they are under a hierarch (Catholicos?) in India. Is this the one that allows, or does not allow inter communion with Catholics. When I was there, a parishioner told me I could receive , but that is because he thought I was Eastern Orthodox when I told him I was Eastern Catholic. I would love to go back and receive Christ (since I beleive our schisms are man made as Marcarios’ beautifully described in this thread), but not if it will be breaking any of their rules. I wouldn’t want to be disrespectful.

 

[Vico]

Notice in the chart below that there are three churches with Malankara in the name: one reformed, one Orthodox, one Catholic. There is another Malankara Jacobite Syrian Orthodox shown as Jacobite Syrian Christian Church.

1. Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church (autocephalous)
2. Malankara Jacobite Syrian Orthodox Church (Patriarch of Antioch) = Jacobite Syrian Christian Church

 

[Marcarios]

Thank You, I know a God sister of mine , ( I dont know if thats offical) but it makes sense to me if are Godmother is the same lady… she was raised Sikh, and I had a feeling she was homesick because of her Indian roots… so I sent her a link to the Indian Church and told her about their history as what I could gather from the online enyclopedia. The Rites of Antioch are beautiful, but in the area we live in there are many Assyrians who are divided between the Nestorians, Calcedons, and the the Chaldeans. In that sense I thought with the division among the Assyrians the Indian Church unfortunately has the same malady. Of course I have to admit, I have issues with any Church that doesn’t ascribe the veneration due to the Theotokos in their Liturgy , I Think that is the saddest part of that whole division of the Eastern Church in general.

 

[Halyna]

I too am ‘relocated’ but I have only Roman Catholic churches around me with only 1 Orthodox church close by.

1. I cannot give up my faith. I do believe in the throne of Peter, what other guidance do we have? Though Ukrainian Catholics have a patriarch (as the orthodox do) but my patriarch still answers to the Pope.
2. The cathechism states that the orthodox are ‘brothers’ of the catholics. Their priests are taught as catholic priests are. Though we should ‘not seek them out’ the catholic church accepts our brotherhood. However, the orthodox dont feel the same way about us. I asked the orthodox priest and he said that though many Ukrainians attend his parish, by order of his bishop (who I happen to personally know) he cannot offer communion to non-orthodox. so my thought was, if I attend the banquet of the Lord and cannot participate in the ‘meal’ what purpose was there for me to attend?
3. I know that I will not be living here for very long. When I look to relocate the biggest priority I have (which I pray for ) is to find a home even walking distance to my Eastern Rite church so that I could attend daily mass (I’m not real great on driving especially in the winter).
   I see your dilemma. I would much rather go to a church of a rite that tugs at my heart, so my only advice would be to tug at Jesus’ heart and pray for an answer.

 

[OrdinaryMelkite]

… http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_QCQd2qeUS5Q/Sb57Gt_nojI/AAAAAAAAAe8/yCIHge0C9A8/s400/Rock+&+hard+place.jpg

That was so funny, Hesychios.

 

[OrdinaryMelkite]

Amen!! Great post Marcarios!!

I also agree!!! Good job!!!

 

[5Loaves]

I too am ‘relocated’ but I have only Roman Catholic churches around me with only 1 Orthodox church close by.
…I asked the orthodox priest and he said that though many Ukrainians attend his parish, by order of his bishop (who I happen to personally know) he cannot offer communion to non-orthodox. so my thought was, if I attend the banquet of the Lord and cannot participate in the ‘meal’ what purpose was there for me to attend?

…I see your dilemma. I would much rather go to a church of a rite that tugs at my heart, so my only advice would be to tug at Jesus’ heart and pray for an answer.

JP2 Orientale Lumen, 21 These [Catholic Eastern] Churches carry a tragic wound, for they are still kept from full communion with the Eastern Orthodox Churches despite sharing in the heritage of their fathers.

What purpose? To give glory to God, and receive God’s mercy with His faithful. Have you never gone to Mass and not received Holy Eucharist? It happens to me not infrequently since our fasting requirements are more stringent than the Latins and I like to go to Mass when I can at the local Dominican Priory, where Mass is celebrated late in the afternoon. Sometimes I mistakenly or intentionally eat something after breakfast. I still want to worship in community so I’m there in Mass without receiving Holy Eucharist.

Even the so-called “Sunday obligation” is to assist at Liturgy/Mass. There is no obligation to receive Holy Eucharist:

CCC The Sunday obligation
2182 Participation in the communal celebration of the Sunday Eucharist is a testimony of belonging and of being faithful to Christ and to his Church. The faithful give witness by this to their communion in faith and charity. Together they testify to God’s holiness and their hope of salvation. They strengthen one another under the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

That section of the Latin Catechism states beautifully why I would go to an Orthodox Church for Divine Liturgy if I lost access to an EC Church. I don’t know how I would survive without access to Divine Liturgy. There are many opportunities for receiving Holy Eucharist in a Latin Church as a Catholic. As it is I and a great many Eastern Catholics already depend on the Orthodox for many Festal services and Vespers. At any given time in many if not most Orthodox Churches there are Eastern and Latin Catholics present worshiping. Every Orthodox priest knows this.