CCC on Muslims

[LoyalChristian]

I know there are a lot of evangelicals out in CO Springs. Are you sure they haven’t gotten to youbecause what you are writing is pretty far out there?

Calling any part of the CCC “anathema” and “worded like junk”. . . . . . .

Really?!? How am I supposed to respond to this? You aren’t talking like a Catholic.

"it really should be re-written as. . . " PLEASE!!

Jews, Christians, and Muslims worship the same God. In Catholicism we have the fullness of truth and, you know what, that includes CCC, which you question.

If we all worship the same God, then why is Catholicsm not practiced in Islamic countries. Instead they do horrible things to them.

You do not speak for me as a Christian.

 

[ringil]

If we all worship the same God, then why is Catholicsm not practiced in Islamic countries. Instead they do horrible things to them.

You do not speak for me as a Christian.

I speak as a Roman Catholic informed in faith by the CCC, the fullest and normative expression of Catholic Doctrine i.e. True Doctrine.

 

[LoyalChristian]

I know there are a lot of evangelicals out in CO Springs. Are you sure they haven’t gotten to youbecause what you are writing is pretty far out there?

Calling any part of the CCC “anathema” and “worded like junk”. . . . . . .

Really?!? How am I supposed to respond to this? You aren’t talking like a Catholic.

"it really should be re-written as. . . " PLEASE!!

Jews, Christians, and Muslims worship the same God. In Catholicism we have the fullness of truth and, you know what, that includes CCC, which you question.

I speak as a Roman Catholic informed in faith by the CCC, the fullest and normative expression of Catholic Doctrine i.e. True Doctrine.

Informed catholic you are-
It’s an insult to our fellow Christians(who are suffering) in other countries. I can understand why the POPE would say we worship the same God. But I don’t think others realize it. Just don’t provoke people.

 

[Luvtosew]

Was the present cathechism that the original poster talking about wrote in 1992, before the twin towers were blown up???
Thanks

 

[jonbhorton]

I know there are a lot of evangelicals out in CO Springs. Are you sure they haven’t gotten to youbecause what you are writing is pretty far out there?

Calling any part of the CCC “anathema” and “worded like junk”. . . . . . .

Really?!? How am I supposed to respond to this? You aren’t talking like a Catholic.

"it really should be re-written as. . . " PLEASE!!

Jews, Christians, and Muslims worship the same God. In Catholicism we have the fullness of truth and, you know what, that includes CCC, which you question.

If I am to supposed read the CCC#841 at face value to mean that Muslims, having heard sound, Christian doctrine, and rejected it, have a chance at Heaven and preach a valid gospel of any kind or amount, then the entire Christian faith is in jeopardy and lacks full Truth. If I am to believe Scripture, which is very forthright on this issue, then the Catholic doctrine put forth regarding such matters cannot conflict with Scripture. I, in fact, do not believe it conflicts with Scripture or Tradition. I believe it is worded in such a way that it simply cannot be taken at face value and on its own. It must be weighed against other teachings of the Magisterium, as all teachings must agree. If there is conflict, it should not be conflict but a truth so intricately explained that it cannot just be read as to what it seems to say, but what it says. What it says, in the context of reading it properly and not a modern skim reading, i.e. word for word and how the words interact with each other, again, must agree with Scripture and Tradition.

I am not saying the CCC is anathema. I am saying if it is unable to be rectified with Tradition, Scripture, and dogmatic truth, then it must obviously be poorly worded and needs to be re-written to better get the point across to simpletons such as myself.

However, the only portion of the paragraph I think needs to be thought out better, or at least fleshed out with a footnote, is the last portion. Yes, muslims wait on Judgement Day… but they wait on one that is a narrative opposite of the Judgement Day we wait on. It is, again, antiChrist. Anything anti-Christ, is anathema. If the CCC in fact supports such a claim, when weighed against other doctrine and Scripture, then yes it would be anathema until cleared up. Not entirely, but worthy of a correction and notation in a future syllabus of errors.

Don’t put words in my mouth. I’m not disagreeing with the CCC, I’m disagreeing with how you are interpreting it, which seems, to me, myopic.

 

[ringil]

Was the present cathechism that the original poster talking about wrote in 1992, before the twin towers were blown up???
Thanks

The fact that Muslims worship the same God is irrespective of terrorist attacks carried out by extremists that happen to be Muslim.

This understanding positied in the CCC comes from theological and historical understanding. The three Abramhamic Faiths worship the same God.

The CCC makes no mention of Buddhists, Hindus, Sikhs, but does make clear that Muslims worship the same God as we.

Why be Catholic if you don’t accept the normative expression of Catholic Dogma?

The SSPX, SSPV, and some other groups may better fit your ideas related to religious issues.

 

[Luvtosew]

I’m Chrisitan before I’m Catholic ok.
The SSPX, SSPV, and some other groups may better fit your ideas related to religious issues

Please don’t tell me what I should do, I was raised Catholic and intend to stay Catholic whether I believe everything in the Cathechism or not. Your comment above is one of the reasons I have a problem with some of the Catholic dogmas.

Maybe Pope John Paul would of elaborated more after the twin towers were blown up, but it was wrote before that. One God yes, but different beliefs,

but I believe Pope John Paul was trying to make harmony as he also kissed the Quran.

 

[LoyalChristian]

Please just think about the Christians in other countries for goodness sakes. Just leave it at that. Sometimes we have to beg for PEACE.

 

[jonbhorton]

The fact that Muslims worship the same God is irrespective of terrorist attacks carried out by extremists that happen to be Muslim.

This understanding positied in the CCC comes from theological and historical understanding. The three Abramhamic Faiths worship the same God.

The CCC makes no mention of Buddhists, Hindus, Sikhs, but does make clear that Muslims worship the same God as we.

Why be Catholic if you don’t accept the normative expression of Catholic Dogma?

The SSPX, SSPV, and some other groups may better fit your ideas related to religious issues.

So if I go pull a Mo and start a religion where we change a bunch of stories up, deny Jesus as the Son of God, etc, etc, name our God after a pre-islamic pagan moon diety, claim we got our source from an angel of light in a dark cave, and this angel gave a totally contradictory gospel- I’d too be a worshiper of the God of Abraham?

What the muslims claim to believe doesn’t jive with what they believe, as per their own texts and traditions. They wait on an opposite narrative from Christians and Jews. They are not believers in God as the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob; they believe in Satan masquerading as God. You can’t call a glass of water a shoe and have the dang thing fit on your foot with the same ability as a shoe, nor function, nor end-state goal.

Using that analogy, CCC#841 might read like:

" 841 The Cobbler shop’s relationship with the Glass-of-water-on-the-Footists . “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator of shoes, in the first place amongst whom are the Glass-of-water-on-the-Footists; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham’s Cobbler, and together with us they adore the one, merciful Cobbler, mankind’s judge on the last day- of how they wore their shoes.”

Good luck on the ones trying to walk that narrow path with frigging glasses of water on their feet.

 

[Luvtosew]

jonbhorton,

I agree with you. Pretty mush says one does not need to believe in Jesus Christ as our savior.

 

[karaleigh]

Listed in the ancient writings of the Old Testament is the story of Caleb;. Numbers 32:10-19

In school, I had to write an essay on this selection. Using the channel Bible History Online, I was made to research Caleb and the Kenizzite clan which is believed to be the forefathers of today’s modern Muslims, or the broken branch of Judea. Braking the branch was by Caleb’s personal request to the All Mighty God. It was granted to him with the clear understanding that he and his descendants would never be able to return as a member of the 12 ever again…so says the God of Abraham.

In the story of Caleb, it was he who requested to leave the 12 tribes of Israel. Caleb didn’t want to live in Canaan. In faithfulness to God, the city of Hebron was given to him instead. Interesting historical account if you are interested in why the Muslims are as they are concerning God Jehovah, Jesus, and the 12 Tribes of Israel.

 

[ringil]

I’m Chrisitan before I’m Catholic ok.

i think that pretty much sums it up doesn’t it?

For me Catholicism IS Christianity. Besides the Orthodox, other Christian sects are but a shadow of the true faith. It seems to me that you have been influenced by non-Catholics. I would guess of the Evangelical or low church variety.

In the true faith we are not free to personally interpret scripture or to question Church teaching as we do not have teaching authority as laymen- that’s called Protestantism and I have no place for it.

 

[Luvtosew]

i think that pretty much sums it up doesn’t it?

For me Catholicism IS Christianity. Besides the Orthodox, other Christian sects are but a shadow of the true faith. It seems to me that you have been influenced by non-Catholics. I would guess of the Evangelical or low church variety.

In the true faith we are not free to personally interpret scripture or to question Church teaching as we do not have teaching authority as laymen- that’s called Protestantism and I have no place for it.

Its not worth my time responding to your condescending comments except I don’t believe your a Christian.

 

[Luvtosew]

Listed in the ancient writings of the Old Testament is the story of Caleb;. Numbers 32:10-19

In school, I had to write an essay on this selection. Using the channel Bible History Online, I was made to research Caleb and the Kenizzite clan which is believed to be the forefathers of today’s modern Muslims, or the broken branch of Judea. Braking the branch was by Caleb’s personal request to the All Mighty God. It was granted to him with the clear understanding that he and his descendants would never be able to return as a member of the 12 ever again…so says the God of Abraham.

In the story of Caleb, it was he who requested to leave the 12 tribes of Israel. Caleb didn’t want to live in Canaan. In faithfulness to God, the city of Hebron was given to him instead. Interesting historical account if you are interested in why the Muslims are as they are concerning God Jehovah, Jesus, and the 12 Tribes of Israel.

thanks for your post.

 

[jonbhorton]

i think that pretty much sums it up doesn’t it?

For me Catholicism IS Christianity. Besides the Orthodox, other Christian sects are but a shadow of the true faith. It seems to me that you have been influenced by non-Catholics. I would guess of the Evangelical or low church variety.

I agree with this. ^

In the true faith we are not free to personally interpret scripture or** to question Church teaching as we do not have teaching authority as laymen**- that’s called Protestantism and I have no place for it.

Disagree with this, insofar as particular semantic angles. Question how? To spar with the teaching in an effort to vanquish it with our own idea? Or, to wrestle with it, so as to reconcile it in our own understanding and how it fits into the faith; to grow in understanding of, and love for, the Faith, the Church, Mary, Jesus, and The Triune God by understanding and being able to defend and implement it in our daily life?

The best way to learn is to ask questions. It’s how and why we ask it that makes the difference.

Blind acceptance is gonna lead you down a broad road to Hell if, in fact, the Antichrist, or Satan, ever gains control over the Vatican.

Personal interpretation can extend into the realm of non-researched opinions, albeit unintentional. Multiple angles on Scripture and Canon law have been tried and failed, but the true way to take something will always fit with other traditionally held doctrines. I believe those same truths are evident today, but unfortunately buried in vague language and sometimes uncorrected public perception. I sometimes wonder if less verbosity and expert word wrangling is the answer. In this modern, stupid age, answers are preferred in 3 second bursts. Well explained doctrine in mere paragraphs can be confusing for people unable to connect the dots. It almost begs fleshing out into full papers. But the route language seems to be going steers more toward simple sentences which narrow down the thought for frenetic channel hopping. Then, a link could be made to more fleshed out doctrine which could be explained.

The CCC in question, # 841, certainly could use a caveat footnote entry. It is well written but it is well written in an age that doesn’t even know what that means. It is written in a manner which, without contextual understanding, almost seems like it gives islam a free pass or a leg to stand on. To say that islam is a dog that don’t hunt, is an understatement. That dog not only don’t hunt, it bites the chil’rens too. And pees on the carpet. And overall just needs to be shot before it spreads rabies. Shot with prayer. And no longer kowtowed to. You don’t lead by following an inferior line.

Islam is a false religion and mistaken in who and what it worships. There is no chance of salvation in islam when the Gospel is rejected knowingly. The Apostles themselves attest to that. When the Gospel is not heard, it cannot be rejected, but man is still subject in that case to the law God has written on man’s heart. So, do all muslims go to Hell? No. Only the ones who knowingly rejected the Jesus Christ of Christianity in lieu of their man-boy-idiot “Isa”, decidedly not the Son of God.

 

[jonbhorton]

It would be beneficial to look directly at the references from which that paragraph is drawn. Again, I know I mentioned previously that I thought it could use a caveat footnote entry. It does have one, but, the average person searching around on the internet isn’t going to realize that. Hence, it would help if left to a simple phrase and fleshed out in a longer manner elsewhere and clearly defined as linked to that paragraph number. It behooves one to actually own a copy of the Catechism so they can reference. We should not be ignorant, dumb Catholics just rollicking around drooling, “gawsh, whatever the Church says, and I readed it for myself in a paragraph on the interwebz!”. We have to jump into the intellectualism of the wonderful men who help shepherd the flock. This includes those in-depth, hypotactic, long theses.

Here is Paragraph 16 from Lumen Gentium:

1. Finally, those who have not yet received the Gospel are related in various ways to the people of God.(18*) In the first place we must recall the people to whom the testament and the promises were given and from whom Christ was born according to the flesh.(125) On account of their fathers this people remains most dear to God, for God does not repent of the gifts He makes nor of the calls He issues.(126) But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Mohammedans, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind. Nor is God far distant from those who in shadows and images seek the unknown God, for it is He who gives to all men life and breath and all things,(127) and as Saviour wills that all men be saved.(128) Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience.(19*) Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life. Whatever good or truth is found amongst them is looked upon by the Church as a preparation for the Gospel.(20*) She knows that it is given by Him who enlightens all men so that they may finally have life. But often men, deceived by the Evil One, have become vain in their reasonings and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, serving the creature rather than the Creator.(129) Or some there are who, living and dying in this world without God, are exposed to final despair. Wherefore to promote the glory of God and procure the salvation of all of these, and mindful of the command of the Lord, “Preach the Gospel to every creature”,(130) the Church fosters the missions with care and attention.

and from Nostra Aetate, paragraph 3:

1. The Church regards with esteem also the Moslems. They adore the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all- powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth,(5) who has spoken to men; they take pains to submit wholeheartedly to even His inscrutable decrees, just as Abraham, with whom the faith of Islam takes pleasure in linking itself, submitted to God. Though they do not acknowledge Jesus as God, they revere Him as a prophet. They also honor Mary, His virgin Mother; at times they even call on her with devotion. In addition, they await the day of judgment when God will render their deserts to all those who have been raised up from the dead. Finally, they value the moral life and worship God especially through prayer, almsgiving and fasting.
   Since in the course of centuries not a few quarrels and hostilities have arisen between Christians and Moslems, this sacred synod urges all to forget the past and to work sincerely for mutual understanding and to preserve as well as to promote together for the benefit of all mankind social justice and moral welfare, as well as peace and freedom.

---

This is exactly what I’ve been saying all along, if you just read it as it is written and not in a glossary manner. It’s, in reality, quite a cheeky, intellectual snub at islam. Much more subtle than a fist to the mouth a la St. Nicolas to Arius, but way over the head of the average muslim.

 

[Hypatia]

way over the head of the average muslim.

In my experience of this forum and even of this thread, it isn’t the Muslims who have a hard time understanding what the Catholic Church is saying on this matter; it is the Catholics who aren’t on board.

 

[MartinJordan]

How about if one read the FULL statement by the CCC regarding non-Christian religions rather than focusing solely on CCC 841 on Muslims?

*The Church and non-Christians

839 "Those who have not yet received the Gospel are related to the People of God in various ways."325

The relationship of the Church with the Jewish People. When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish People,326 "the first to hear the Word of God."327 The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God’s revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews “belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ”,328 "for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable."329

840 And when one considers the future, God’s People of the Old Covenant and the new People of God tend towards similar goals: expectation of the coming (or the return) of the Messiah. But one awaits the return of the Messiah who died and rose from the dead and is recognized as Lord and Son of God; the other awaits the coming of a Messiah, whose features remain hidden till the end of time; and the latter waiting is accompanied by the drama of not knowing or of misunderstanding Christ Jesus.

841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day."330

842 The Church’s bond with non-Christian religions is in the first place the common origin and end of the human race:

All nations form but one community. This is so because all stem from the one stock which God created to people the entire earth, and also because all share a common destiny, namely God. His providence, evident goodness, and saving designs extend to all against the day when the elect are gathered together in the holy city. . .331

843 The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as "a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life."332

844 In their religious behavior, however, men also display the limits and errors that disfigure the image of God in them:

Very often, deceived by the Evil One, men have become vain in their reasonings, and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and served the creature rather than the Creator. Or else, living and dying in this world without God, they are exposed to ultimate despair.333

845 To reunite all his children, scattered and led astray by sin, the Father willed to call the whole of humanity together into his Son’s Church. The Church is the place where humanity must rediscover its unity and salvation. The Church is “the world reconciled.” She is that bark which “in the full sail of the Lord’s cross, by the breath of the Holy Spirit, navigates safely in this world.” According to another image dear to the Church Fathers, she is prefigured by Noah’s ark, which alone saves from the flood.334
*

Perhaps this will provide more food for thought.

MJ

 

[Dan_Daly]

Catholic Catechism, par. 841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. ‘The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.’

Hi, trying to come back to the Catholic Church but I have problems with the above and a few other beliefs. Christians and Muslims do not in my research and opinion worship the same god. Muslims do not believe in the trinity or that Jesus is the Son of God, or that salvation is through Jesus alone. So I don’t understand the above. Does the Catholic faith believe that there is salvation outside of faith and belief in Jesus?

The statement in the CCC is not very specific. It simply says Muslims are part of God’s plan of salvation. Okay that is true…everyone is part of God’s plan for salvation. So if all Muslims go to Hell or all Muslims go to Heaven or some go to Heaven and some go to hell…any of those would fit into CCC passage you quote.

Misinterpreation of the passage is easy to do, and the idea that there is no need to evangelize Muslims (or anyone else) is a serious problem. Don’t be discouraged. Read the CCC in context with the rest of Catholic teaching. Baptism is required for salvation. There is no salvation outside of Jesus Christ and His Holy Catholic Church.

Pax Christi

 

[ringil]

The views and attitudes expressed on CAF can, indeed, be very different from what you will find in your local Church.

There is likely some truth that America does struggle with a particiular disdain for Muslims, at least a certain segmant of the population.

I will say, however that some European nations seem to be increasing wary of Muslim immigrants. Only peaceful dialogue and mutual understanding is going to combat this trend.