Ccc questions on 841 843 and 856

[Gorgias]

Please tell me, what is God’s plan for salvation as seen through your lens? Thanks!

Read Lumen gentium, paragraphs 14 through 16.

Ok, maybe this will help. Just two verses down from John 3:16 (which is what I was referring to above).

John 3:18

Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already **because they have not believed **in the name of God’s one and only Son.

and…

Luke 10:16

“Whoever listens to you listens to me; whoever rejects you rejects me; but whoever rejects me rejects him who sent me.”

The question, though, is whether we’re talking about a deliberate disbelief or a deliberate rejection. That seems to be the force of these verses. Can we say that a person raised without a true opportunity to accept Jesus has ‘rejected’ Him?

Hopefully, this shows that the ‘inverse’ IS true!

It doesn’t.

 

[SJacob7]

Read Lumen gentium, paragraphs 14 through 16.

The question, though, is whether we’re talking about a deliberate disbelief or a deliberate rejection. That seems to be the force of these verses. Can we say that a person raised without a true opportunity to accept Jesus has ‘rejected’ Him?

It doesn’t.

Ok, thanks for your thoughts!

 

[Gorgias]

Ok, thanks for your thoughts!

You’re welcome!

I’d be interested in hearing your reaction to the teachings of the Church as found in Lumen gentium (and which are quoted in the Catechism)!

 

[jjsmity]

I am just wondering, if the church says only they can inteprit gods word, who than can inteprit them in writings like the ccc?

 

[davidv]

I am just wondering, if the church says only they can inteprit gods word,

Actually the Church does not teach this. It is only when there is disagreement, that the only authentic interpreter is the Church.

who than can inteprit them in writings like the ccc?

Anyone can interpret them. The key question is did they do so correctly?

 

[ahs]

God’s plan for salvation doesn’t change. I believe I have stated that plan. Doesn’t matter where it’s mentioned, God’s plan of salvation remains the same.

That isn’t what I asked, but I will go with exactly what you stated.

So, according to your own answers, the CCC paragraph is saying,

"841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. “God’s desire that all be saved through Baptism] also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”

So, the Church teaches that God desires the salvation of all, through Baptism, and that His desire for everyone’s Baptism includes all those who acknowledge Him, including Muslims.

So, where are you seeing that this paragraph teaches anything about not having to be Baptized to be saved? According to what you, yourself, know and said about God’s plan of salvation, Baptism is necessarily a part of what is required according to that paragraph.

 

[SJacob7]

That isn’t what I asked, but I will go with exactly what you stated.

So, according to your own answers, the CCC paragraph is saying,

"841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. “God’s desire that all be saved through Baptism] also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”

So, the Church teaches that God desires the salvation of all, through Baptism, and that His desire for everyone’s Baptism includes all those who acknowledge Him, including Muslims.

So, where are you seeing that this paragraph teaches anything about not having to be Baptized to be saved? According to what you, yourself, know and said about God’s plan of salvation, Baptism is necessarily a part of what is required according to that paragraph.

Wow! I must really be bad at expressing what I mean. Sorry about that. Let me try again.

I’m talking about 2 different things and how they relate.

1. CCC 841
2. Holy Scripture John 3:5
3. CCC 841 states: "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims;
4. John 3:5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.

The CCC talks of ‘the plan of salvation includes…’. John 3:5 talks of entering the Kingdom of God. Can we agree that ‘salvation’ and ‘entering the Kingdom of God’ are the same?

What I have been trying to ask (albeit that I haven’t stated it well) if in John 3:5 we are instructed, by Jesus, to be baptized (water and the Spirit) in order to enter the Kingdom of God, then how can CCC 841 talk about the plan of salvation includes a group of people that don’t/won’t get baptized?

Hopefully, this makes better sense? Again, I apologize for not stating things very well. Thanks!

 

[davidv]

Wow! I must really be bad at expressing what I mean. Sorry about that. Let me try again.

I’m talking about 2 different things and how they relate.

1. CCC 841
2. Holy Scripture John 3:5
3. CCC 841 states: "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims;
4. John 3:5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.

The CCC talks of ‘the plan of salvation includes…’. John 3:5 talks of entering the Kingdom of God. Can we agree that ‘salvation’ and ‘entering the Kingdom of God’ are the same?

What I have been trying to ask (albeit that I haven’t stated it well) if in John 3:5 we are instructed, by Jesus, to be baptized (water and the Spirit) in order to enter the Kingdom of God, then how can CCC 841 talk about the plan of salvation includes a group of people that don’t/won’t get baptized?

Hopefully, this makes better sense? Again, I apologize for not stating things very well. Thanks!

Does 841 include all that is included in the “plan of salvation”? No. In fact it only speaks of one, acknowledgement of the creator.

I did a search of the CCC. The phrase “plan of salvation” occurs 29 times.

Seems to me you are comparing apples to oranges and concluding they should be the same.

 

[Gorgias]

1. CCC 841 states: "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims;

Yes, the plan includes hope for the salvation of Muslims.

1. John 3:5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.

Being “born from above” – the rebirth of “water and the Spirit” – is what is required for entry into the kingdom. This does not mean that the waters of baptism are the only means by which one experiences this rebirth from above!

Jesus also talked about giving people “living water”, which would allow them never be thirsty. Did He mean that He was going to give them literal H[sub]2[/sub]O? No! The same applies here – the normative way to be “reborn from above”, and experience rebirth “in the Spirit”, is through baptism. However, this does not mean that those who are not baptized (literally in water) cannot enter the kingdom of God!

The presumption that John 3:5 requires water baptism, without which there is no salvation, is incorrect, and is not what the Church teaches.

 

[ahs]

Wow! I must really be bad at expressing what I mean. Sorry about that. Let me try again.

I’m talking about 2 different things and how they relate.

1. CCC 841
2. Holy Scripture John 3:5
3. CCC 841 states: "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims;
4. John 3:5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.

Amen. So far so good.

The CCC talks of ‘the plan of salvation includes…’. John 3:5 talks of entering the Kingdom of God. Can we agree that ‘salvation’ and ‘entering the Kingdom of God’ are the same?

Sure…except that the “plan” is not equal to “salvation”. God’s “plan of salvation” doesn’t mean “we all will enter His Kingdom regardless of whether we accept it”. That’s where I think you are reading something into the CCC that isn’t actually there.
As davidv pointed out, what you are concluding about the use of “plan of salvation” in CCC 841 isn’t what “plan of salvation” means.

Here is what he found, and is easily combed through in this word-searchable CCC link:
ccc.scborromeo.org.master.com/texis/master/search/?sufs=0&q=plan+of+salvation&xsubmit=Search&s=SS

^That’s what “plan of salvation” means.

What I have been trying to ask (albeit that I haven’t stated it well) if in John 3:5 we are instructed, by Jesus, to be baptized (water and the Spirit) in order to enter the Kingdom of God, then how can CCC 841 talk about the plan of salvation includes a group of people that don’t/won’t get baptized?

Because God wants us ALL to be saved [Baptized]…that His “plan”. But, there is also the reality that we won’t all accept His plan…and the reality that, while WE are bound to His plan [must be Baptized], God is not bound by the norms He gave us. Hence, “baptism of desire” and “baptism of blood”, or what ever other means by which God may choose to save someone who is legitimately ignorant of His Gospel.

CCC 841 says that God wants Muslims to be saved. It says absolutely nothing about how that is to take place, and certainly does not suggest that we don’t need to be Baptized in order to be saved. The context of that paragraph is our relationship to Muslims…it’s not about how to be saved [which is covered in other sections of the CCC].

 

[jjsmity]

Actually the Church does not teach this. It is only when there is disagreement, that the only authentic interpreter is the Church.

Anyone can interpret them. The key question is did they do so correctly?

proving my point. How do we know we interpret ccc correct? why than do we need a infallible supposed] interpreter of gods word to mankind, when we than need to interpret that?

 

[Gorgias]

proving my point. How do we know we interpret ccc correct?

Wait – the text you’re quoting is a conversation between two people, one of whom is saying “hmm… the Church says X” and the other who replies, “no, the Church doesn’t teach X”. “How do we know that we’re interpreting the CCC correctly”? Psst… we listen when the Church tells us what the proper interpretation is.

why than do we need a infallible supposed] interpreter of gods word to mankind, when we than need to interpret that?

Not really sure why this is a problem for you. Many intelligent, knowledgeable, competent people write math textbooks that explain what mathematicians teach. Kids read these textbooks and still don’t understand them. The question you’re asking is “why do we need teachers to teach math, when we have books that teach what mathematicians teach?” It’s a non-starter, actually: we need proper interpretation of authoritative teaching when we are unable to understand the teaching or the explanation of it.

I think you’re laboring under the misperception that the Bible speaks plainly, and we can understand it plainly. The Ethiopian eunuch would disagree with you. St Paul would disagree with you.

 

[davidv]

proving my point. How do we know we interpret ccc correct?

By interpreting it consistent with the whole of Church teaching.

why than do we need a infallible supposed] interpreter of gods word to mankind, when we than need to interpret that?

Why is it only supposed?

Jesus promised to lead the Church to all truth.

 

[Genesis315]

That’s why we have a living teaching authority that carries out the teaching mission given by Christ to the Apostles and that continues to teach the true word of God “even to the consummation of the world.” We don’t just pass out a Bible or a Bible and a Catechism and be done with it. There’s always need of correction and interpretation in a world with constantly changing circumstances, languages, and experiences that pose the risk of giving the wrong meaning to what God has revealed. The world constantly changes, but the word of God must remain the same–this requires a living guardian in every age.

 

[jjsmity]

Wait – the text you’re quoting is a conversation between two people, one of whom is saying “hmm… the Church says X” and the other who replies, “no, the Church doesn’t teach X”. “How do we know that we’re interpreting the CCC correctly”? Psst…** we listen when the Church tells us what the proper interpretation is**.

Not really sure why this is a problem for you. Many intelligent, knowledgeable, competent people write math textbooks that explain what mathematicians teach. Kids read these textbooks and still don’t understand them. The question you’re asking is “why do we need teachers to teach math, when we have books that teach what mathematicians teach?” It’s a non-starter, actually: we need proper interpretation of authoritative teaching when we are unable to understand the teaching or the explanation of it.

I think you’re laboring under the misperception that the Bible speaks plainly, and we can understand it plainly. The Ethiopian eunuch would disagree with you. St Paul would disagree with you.

the church tells us the supposed proper interpretation in the ccc, that than catholics interpret differently, just the reason i asked the question.

I disagree with your analogy. I am saying if god wrote to man I trust with holy spirit and the brain he gave he meant man to read and understand it. I do not think we need a interpreter for us [jahovas witness mormon etc] to than tell us what we should belive [ccc] that we than have to go inteprit what that person has said.

By interpreting it consistent with the whole of Church teaching.

Why is it only supposed?

Jesus promised to lead the Church to all truth.

such as the ccc agreed? the question is who interprets the ccc written by the infallible god [sorry church] for us?

jesus promised to lead the church to all truth? were is that, he promised the apostles.
apologeticspress.org/apcontent.aspx?category=11&article=1252

That’s why we have a living teaching authority that carries out the teaching mission given by Christ to the Apostles and that continues to teach the true word of God “even to the consummation of the world.” We don’t just pass out a Bible or a Bible and a Catechism and be done with it. There’s always need of correction and interpretation in a world with constantly changing circumstances, languages, and experiences that pose the risk of giving the wrong meaning to what God has revealed. The world constantly changes, but the word of God must remain the same–this requires a living guardian in every age.

amen sister. Not sure what that has to do with us interpreting the ccc correctly.