Cdl. Burke: Fr. James Martin Is ‘Not Coherent’ with Church Teaching on Homosexuality

  • Thread starter Thread starter yankeesouth
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Having already expressed my view on who we want at Mass, which is also the view of the Church as far as I know (that’s why Masses are almost always public and open to all), I think I will just charitably bow out of this thread. When someone starts advocating excluding groups of people from Mass, things have degenerated to a point beyond any sort of reasonable discussion.

May the baby Jesus open your mind on the matter of “who we want at Mass”. I will continue to welcome everybody who behaves reasonably respectfully during the service. As in, doesn’t destroy property, scream obscenities during the homily, or do generally nefarious things.
 
Last edited:
Tis_Bearself said:
The message I get from Fr. Martin and other priests is that gay people are not an extra-special group of extra-bad sinners. Especially in a society where huge numbers of people calling themselves Catholic are committing sexual sins right and left, as well as other sins.
Click to expand...
Homosexual acts are definitely a very grave sin. Heterosexual sexual sins are serious too. But homosexual acts are actually worse. That is the constant teaching that gets ignored or implicitly undermined.
 
exnihilo said:
Heterosexual sexual sins are serious too. But homosexual acts are actually worse.
Click to expand...
Please provide an actual source from the current Catechism that a particular category of sexual sin is necessarily “worse”.

I think you have hit on the crux of the whole matter right here: this idea that you can commit any heterosexual sin you want with a consenting adult and it’s grave, but still not as grave as those gay people over there.

This is the same type of thinking that leads to racism and prejudice in general. "Well, I may be really poor and downtrodden and uneducated, but I’m still better than those folks of another race or ethnic group living across the railroad tracks. "

Check yourself before you wreck yourself.

Hitting mute now.
 
Last edited:
Tis_Bearself said:
When someone starts advocating excluding groups of people from Mass, things have degenerated to a point beyond any sort of reasonable discussion.
Click to expand...
Someone like the earliest Christians? They were unreasonable? I think it far more unreasonable to think that someone who promotes homosexual acts as being good at Mass is itself a good thing. Mass isn’t a Billy Graham crusade or shouldn’t be. Of course the same would be true of adulterers, fornicators, abortionists etc. It isn’t reasonable to think a notorious, unrepentant abortionist attending Mass is a good thing. I see no difference. Now if the people repent then it is an entirely different matter.
 
The Catechism isn’t the entirety of the Catholic Faith. It is a constant teaching that homosexual acts are a sin that cries out to heaven. Even without that natural law tells us this. The Church has never held that all grave sins are equal. And that isn’t surprising since that is common sense.
 
What is it specifically about the sin of homosexual sex which would preclude one from hearing mass?

Is the son of homosexual sex more heinous than other sins?
 
In the classical Catholic taxonomy of sexual sins, homosexual activity is ranked as the second most egregious.
That is simply reporting a fact, on my part. Obviously, it doesn’t fit the contemporary narrative and no, I don’t believe such a taxonomy is presented in the current Catechism.
 
Last edited:
Well, sons don’t come from “homosexual sex”, just to clarify. 😛
 
Could you give some concrete examples/references to what you claim to see?
 
I don’t “claim” anything. As far as the facts about the history of New Ways Ministry, please look it up for yourself, as I did. Thank you.
 
Last edited:
exnihilo said:
if someone promotes homosexual acts then his presence at Mass isn’t good for him or others.
Click to expand...
angel12 said:
Really? You know where & when God will touch hearts?
Click to expand...
I am a little confused by how people are responding here. Yes, it is true that we want homosexual people, all of them, to come to God, to come to Mass, but I think we are missing that @exnihilo said “promotes homosexual acts”.

Putting this in a different perspective, would you want a married woman and her boyfriend to lead the choir at Mass? Would you be okay if a married teacher brought his mistress to Mass and then he stood up as an extraordinary minister?

Would you not want them to get out of their sinful relationships?

These are the things that Fr. James Martin is not clarifying. If he says that homosexual people can bring their gifts, such as being extraordinary ministers, choir directors and etc. that is fine as long as they are not promoting homosexual activity or living in a homosexual relationship lifestyle. In other words, my question is, is everyone okay if two men, who are married to each other, lead the choir, or teach RCIA, or CCD classes?
 
exnihilo said:
It is a constant teaching that homosexual acts are a sin that cries out to heaven.
Click to expand...
Since you brought it up:

The “blood of Abel”: homicide, infanticide, fratricide, patricide, and matricide
The “cry of the people oppressed in Egypt, the cry of the foreigner, the widow, and the orphan”: slavery and marginalization
The “injustice to the wage earner”: taking advantage of and defrauding workers

So mistreatment of immigrants is as bad as homosexuality. Social justice is as important as gay marriage.

Based on the criteria you pick for exclusion from Mass, a lot of Republicans would also be excluded, as well as some businessmen (or businessmen Republicans).

This is why going by the Church’s discipline is more important than our own personal biases against the sins we ourselves classify. In no case, are people ever discouraged, by the Church, from Mass attendance. I have seen people come that cannot even receive communion because they are in an irregular marriage or living with someone. What I have never seen is a perfect person attending Mass.
 
pnewton said:
I have seen people come that cannot even receive communion because they are in an irregular marriage or living with someone
Click to expand...
That is the key, they are not fully participating. We are all sinners, yes, and we need to be encouraged to turn from our sins. Again, you missed the “promotes homosexual acts” part.
 
prayerrider said:
Well, Fr. James Martin will be speaking at the LA Religious Ed Conference this year, so he must be orthodox.
Click to expand...
That was funny. I hope everyone got that.

Now as to the topic. Life Site News reporting on an article from The Wanders is hardly going to be balanced reporting. First, there is the straw man, like this statement no one made ever, " That same-sex ‘marriage’ is just fine…" I note that why the article said such a change is simply not possible, LSN switches to commentary during that part, choosing to omit the actual quote. Any opinion on either Cardinal Burke or Father Martin should not be formed by such slanted reporting from a source outside the Catholic Church.
 
Last edited:
angel12 said:
I am, too. I don’t understand the concept of “some sinners shouldn’t attend Mass.”
Click to expand...
??
So, did you miss the whole rest of my question? You wouldn’t have a problem with a man in a same sex marriage being an extraordinary minister or leading choir?

It wouldn’t bother you if the head nurse of an abortion clinic lead the choir?

or either of them receiving holy communion?

Again, the post said, “promoting homosexual acts”.
 
Last edited:
MagdalenaRita said:
So, did you miss the whole rest of my question? You wouldn’t have a problem with a man in a same sex marriage being an extraordinary minister or leading choir?

It wouldn’t bother you if the head nurse of an abortion clinic lead the choir?
Click to expand...
So, did you miss the post I originally responded to, which was an objection to them merely attending Mass?

I didn’t miss anything. You tried to add conditions after the fact. My post had nothing to do with “leading the choir.” I was, quite clearly, referring to an objection to their mere presence at Mass.
 
angel12 said:
So, did you miss the post I originally responded to, which was an objection to them merely attending Mass ?
Click to expand...
No because this was part of the original post.

“If these ‘gay’ people are not living chastely”
and
if someone promotes homosexual acts
The reason I asked the question is because Father James Martin has said to allow LGBTQ Catholics to lead choirs, be extraordinary ministers and the like, when he talks about them having gifts and that is fine, as long as they are not promoting homosexual activity.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top