Cdl Mahony's "Cesar Chavez Mass"

[Caveman]

Cdl Mahony of Los Angeles is planning something called “The Cesar Chaves Mass” that is obviously aimed at attracting illegal aliens and those who support them.

Only one problem… Cesar Chavez isn’t axactly the Patron Saint of Illegals that many paint his to be. If anything, Chavez was hard core anti-illegal.

Case in point, this article from the San Diego Union –

Despite the fact that Chávez is these days revered among Mexican-American activists, the labor leader in his day was no more tolerant of illegal immigration than the Arizona Minutemen are now. Worried that the hiring of illegal immigrants drove down wages, Chávez – according to numerous historical accounts – instructed union members to call the Immigration and Naturalization Service to report the presence of illegal immigrants in the fields and demand that the agency deport them. UFW officials were even known to picket INS offices to demand a crackdown on illegal immigrants.

And in 1973, in one of the most disgraceful chapters in UFW history, the union set up a “wet line” to prevent Mexican immigrants from entering the United States. Under the guidance of Chávez 's cousin, Manuel, UFW members tried at first to convince the immigrants not to cross. When that didn’t work, they physically attacked the immigrants and left some bloody in the process. It happened in the same place that the Minutemen are now planning to gather: the Arizona-Mexico border.

At the time, The Village Voice said that the UFW conducted a "campaign of random terror against anyone hapless enough to fall into its net"

I see that the good Cardinal’s correct understanding of history is as strong as his adherance to official Catholic Teaching .

 

[geezerbob]

Here is the full text of the release about the mass:

Join us in celebrating Cesar E. Chavez’ legacy and commitment to the struggle for justice and dignity for all low-wage workers. The mass will be held on Sunday, March 25, 2007 at 3:30pm at the Cathedral of Our Lady of the Angels. The address is 555 West Temple Street, Los Angeles, CA 90012.

Cardinal Roger Mahony will inspire and encourage our community to action on the issues that matter most to us:

• Recognition of the important contributions of immigrants in our society and their rights as human beings, and for comprehensive immigration reform
• Civic action for real political and social change.
• The plight of all farm workers, especially those affected by the recent citrus freeze.
• The continuous struggle for low-wage workers’ right to organize and healthcare for all.

I am on the east coast and am directly affected by very little of what goes on in California, so I really don’t have a dog in this fight. However, I do not like to see his or anyone else’s words misrepresented nor do I like to see someone claim to know his motives unless they are plainly stated or implied.

 

[JLSacred]

What’s wrong with a Mass to honor Caesar Chavez? He was a farmworker union organizer who did some good things for farmworkers. They had been terribly mistreated. He was a great leader.

 

[Caveman]

Here is the full text of the release about the mass:

I am on the east coast and am directly affected by very little of what goes on in California, so I really don’t have a dog in this fight. However, I do not like to see his or anyone else’s words misrepresented nor do I like to see someone claim to know his motives unless they are plainly stated or implied.

When almost one out of every fifteen people who reside in America is an illegal alien, it does affect you. No matter what part of the country you live in.

And as one who has closely followed the political moves made by Cld Mahony over the years, this is just another example of what is implied by Cdl Mahony. Specifically, him being in favor of those who have broken the laws of this country.

I always thought that lying and cheating were mortal sins. And that is exactly what illegal aliens did when they broke the immigration laws of this nation.

All the watchwords of the pro-illegals crowd were there --“comprehensive immigration reform”, “Civic action for real political and social change”, “The continuous struggle”, etc, etc. The same of tired rhetoric.

But not one word about the salvation of souls… but plenty about the salvation of society.

 

[Caveman]

What’s wrong with a Mass to honor Caesar Chavez? He was a farmworker union organizer who did some good things for farmworkers. They had been terribly mistreated. He was a great leader.

And when was Cesar Chavez added to the Litany of the Saints? When exactly is his Feast Day?

As far as him being someone who did “good things for farmworkers” and someone who “was a great leader”, does that include him having his cousin’s gangs beat the daylights out of illegals sneaking into this country?

I’m no big fan of illegal immigration… but I’m even more against vigilante justice. You’ve got to admit, *The Village Voice * isn’t exactly the mouthpiece for The Minutemen, so when even they state that “the UFW (United Farm Workers) conducted a ‘campaign of random terror against anyone hapless enough to fall into its net.’”, one has to stand up and take notice.

 

[LilyM]

I always thought that lying and cheating were mortal sins. And that is exactly what illegal aliens did when they broke the immigration laws of this nation.

All the watchwords of the pro-illegals crowd were there --“comprehensive immigration reform”, “Civic action for real political and social change”, “The continuous struggle”, etc, etc. The same of tired rhetoric.

But not one word about the salvation of souls… but plenty about the salvation of society.

Christ said ‘whatsoever you do to the least of these my brothers, that you do to me’ - so we are commanded to work for social justice, or at least to correct social injustice. Christ himself exemplified this in his dignified and considerate treatment of women and foreigners, the marginalised of his time (as well as ours, though to a different degree).

And yes, illegal immigrants have broken laws, we are reminded that even prisoners are Christ’s brothers, and we must treat them as such. Those are his own words - ‘I was in prison and you visited me’.

I don’t know much about the situation in America, but here in Australia illegal immigrants are held in worse conditions than rapists, murderers and most other prisoners. And they’re not treated much better outside, exploited and abused in their workplaces, their fear of deportation played on.

 

[Caveman]

Christ said ‘whatsoever you do to the least of these my brothers, that you do to me’ - so we are commanded to work for social justice, or at least to correct social injustice. Christ himself exemplified this in his dignified and considerate treatment of women and foreigners, the marginalised of his time (as well as ours, though to a different degree).

And yes, illegal immigrants have broken laws, we are reminded that even prisoners are Christ’s brothers, and we must treat them as such. Those are his own words - ‘I was in prison and you visited me’.

I don’t know much about the situation in America, but here in Australia illegal immigrants are held in worse conditions than rapists, murderers and most other prisoners. And they’re not treated much better outside, exploited and abused in their workplaces, their fear of deportation played on.

Lily, I believe you are confusing mercy for the weak with acceptance of wrong doing. I’m all for treating the illegals with dignity and respect… and a one way bus ticket home.

Those were valid points you raised, but please keep in mind 2241 of the catechism —

The more prosperous nations are obliged, to the extent they are able, to welcome the foreigner in search of the security and the means of livelihood which he cannot find in his country of origin. Public authorities should see to it that the natural right is respected that places a guest under the protection of those who receive him.

America accepts more LEGAL immigrants than the rest of the world combined. And on top of that, those that are here illegally, are reaping the benifits of a nation whose laws they have openly violated.

Political authorities, for the sake of the common good for which they are responsible, may make the exercise of the right to immigrate** subject to various juridical conditions**, especially with regard to the immigrants’ duties toward their country of adoption. Immigrants are obliged to respect with gratitude the material and spiritual heritage of the country that receives them,** to obey its laws and to assist in carrying civic burdens.**

By definition, illegals have violated Church Teachings. Do I really have to bring up the 8th Commandment? Isn’t lying still a mortal sin? And that’s exactly what they did when they entered this country illegally.

I just don’t underatnd what’s so hard about playing by the rules. Millions and millions and millions have been capable for doing such for over two centuries. Why isn’t the same expected of the 20 million illegals that are invading our country now?

A nation that can’t control it’s own borders, will never control it’s own destiny.

 

[lsusportsfan]

When almost one out of every fifteen people who reside in America is an illegal alien, it does affect you. No matter what part of the country you live in.

And as one who has closely followed the political moves made by Cld Mahony over the years, this is just another example of what is implied by Cdl Mahony. Specifically, him being in favor of those who have broken the laws of this country.

I always thought that lying and cheating were mortal sins. And that is exactly what illegal aliens did when they broke the immigration laws of this nation.

All the watchwords of the pro-illegals crowd were there --“comprehensive immigration reform”, “Civic action for real political and social change”, “The continuous struggle”, etc, etc. The same of tired rhetoric.

But not one word about the salvation of souls… but plenty about the salvation of society.

 

[lsusportsfan]

All the watchwords of the pro-illegals crowd were there --“comprehensive immigration reform”, “Civic action for real political and social change”, “The continuous struggle”, etc, etc. The same of tired rhetoric.

It is also mirrors what the Church is saying. The Tancred/Minuteman bunch and the delete the border crowd buch never get the teaching of the Church right on this. As soon as Catholics wake up and realize that this debate is being controled by the John Tanton and his groups the better

 

[Caveman]

It is also mirrors what the Church is saying. The Tancred/Minuteman bunch and the delete the border crowd buch never get the teaching of the Church right on this. As soon as Catholics wake up and realize that this debate is being controled by the John Tanton and his groups the better

2241 of the CCC pretty much says it all

 

[lsusportsfan]

By definition, illegals have violated Church Teachings. Do I really have to bring up the 8th Commandment? Isn’t lying still a mortal sin? And that’s exactly what they did when they entered this country illegally.

I just don’t underatnd what’s so hard about playing by the rules. Millions and millions and millions have been capable for doing such for over two centuries. Why isn’t the same expected of the 20 million illegals that are invading our country now?

Well is the concept of Justice here. American business and every day people have hired them and profited off their labor. How shall punish them? I can tell you if it wasnt for illegals in New Orleans and rebuilding we would be in a heck of a fix right now. In fact the entire Gulf Coast would be. Shall we deport them all big and small after we use them. What about concerns of the mixed family. If there is a illegal here that has been here sunce he was 5 what is the morality of deporting him at 25? TOugh questions and no easy answers.

 

[LilyM]

I just don’t underatnd what’s so hard about playing by the rules. Millions and millions and millions have been capable for doing such for over two centuries. Why isn’t the same expected of the 20 million illegals that are invading our country now?

A nation that can’t control it’s own borders, will never control it’s own destiny.

First of all illegal immigrants do reap the benefits of the society they enter, though considering most of them would have no entitlements to things like social security or a vote one has to wonder exactly how much benefit they do reap. Certainly much less than legal migrants or citizens.

And I would point out that they for the most part also contribute to the country with their labour, as any worker does.

And I suppose it’s never occurred to you that 50 or even 30 years ago immigration wasn’t a fraction as difficult as it is today? Not half so many legal requirements, forms to fill in, documents to provide and the rest of it? Of course people are more willing to jump hurdles when the hurdles aren’t incredibly high for them.

I live and breathe this every day - my parents migrated to this country 35 years ago, today I help migrants who are in exactly the same situation they were in back then. You think it’s equally easy now? Not by a long shot!!!

 

[Caveman]

Well is the concept of Justice here. American business and every day people have hired them and profited off their labor. How shall punish them? I can tell you if it wasnt for illegals in New Orleans and rebuilding we would be in a heck of a fix right now. In fact the entire Gulf Coast would be. Shall we deport them all big and small after we use them. What about concerns of the mixed family. If there is a illegal here that has been here sunce he was 5 what is the morality of deporting him at 25? TOugh questions and no easy answers.

How do we punish them? Simple… put a few plant managers or CEO’s in prison (not many, just a few) for conspiracy to violate federal immigration law, and you’ll see the job market for illegals dry up faster than a glass of water on a August day in Tucson. The illegals will simply leave of their own accord.

As far as New Orleans is concerned… no American citizens or legal resident aliens are capable of work? Sounds to me like more big-wigs are candidates for prison. But I’m a realist enough to know that that’ll never happen.

But back to the topic at hand, I find it… laughable, shall we say… that Cdl Mahony want’s to use the memory of someone who so openly anti-illegal alien, in his campaign in favor of such.

 

[Caveman]

First of all illegal immigrants do reap the benefits of the society they enter, though considering most of them would have no entitlements to things like social security or a vote one has to wonder exactly how much benefit they do reap. Certainly much less than legal migrants or citizens.

And wht should they have a “right” to Social Security or voting? They’re here ILLEGALLY. And as far as benifits, I invite you into any American hospital or school (or jail) in this country. Billions are spent on them by hard-working, tax-paying citizens and legal resident aliens, and a miniscule amount is being given back by the illegals themselves.

And I would point out that they for the most part also contribute to the country with their labour, as any worker does.

Does it matter at all, Lily, if they broke the laws of this country to get here to begin with? As I’ve said before, I have no problem with immigration… legal immigration, that is.

And I suppose it’s never occurred to you that 50 or even 30 years ago immigration wasn’t a fraction as difficult as it is today? Not half so many legal requirements, forms to fill in, documents to provide and the rest of it? Of course people are more willing to jump hurdles when the hurdles aren’t incredibly high for them.

And your point being? You’re missing the fact that millions are still abiding by the rules, even though the paperwork is a nightmare. So like I’ve asked before… what makes the illegals not subject to the same regulations as those who play by the rules?

I live and breathe this every day - my parents migrated to this country 35 years ago, today I help migrants who are in exactly the same situation they were in back then. You think it’s equally easy now? Not by a long shot!!!

And I’ll bet your parents came to Australia legally, didn’t they? And besides… if Australia so decides to make immigration more stringent, so what? Isn’t that what democracy’s all about? If you don’t like the way things are, then vote the individuals in charge OUT! But for the love of God, don’t turn it into a Mobocracy. Flooding a nation with lawbreakers is a helluva way to change legitimate laws and procedures.

But with all that said, do you think that 2241 of the Catechism is wrong for stating that a legitimate government has the authority and responsibility for establishing immigration laws? And while I’m at it, is Church Teaching wrong for saying that immigrants have a DUTY to obey the laws of their new nation?

 

[kangnamdragon]

Cdl Mahony of Los Angeles is planning something called “The Cesar Chaves Mass” that is obviously aimed at attracting illegal aliens and those who support them.

.

I was not aware that he was canonized. Is this Mass for the repose of his soul?

 

[Caveman]

I was not aware that he was canonized. Is this Mass for the repose of his soul?

No, this isn’t a Requem Mass… it’s for “comprehensive immigration reform” for illegals, using the name of someone (Chavez) who was openly ANTI-illegal.

Personally, I find the whole thing absurd.

 

[LilyM]

And your point being? You’re missing the fact that millions are still abiding by the rules, even though the paperwork is a nightmare. So like I’ve asked before… what makes the illegals not subject to the same regulations as those who play by the rules?

Well I happen to think people have some degree of entitlement to live and work where they want - as long as their aim IS to fruitfully work, contribute, not avoid paying appropriate taxes, etc. And some countries do go so far and become so stringent that they violate these basic entitlements. Not discussing America in particular.

After all, where would the Holy Family have been if they’d had to go jump through modern-day American or Australian immigration hoops to get into Egypt? They’d have almost certainly been sent back to Israel to be massacred.

And I’ll bet your parents came to Australia legally, didn’t they? And besides… if Australia so decides to make immigration more stringent, so what? Isn’t that what democracy’s all about?

Yes, because at the time they could. Which is precisely my point. If they came today with the skills and qualifications they had then, they would make no less excellent citizens and contributors to our country, to the point where any country would be mad to turn them away. Yet quite likely today they wouldn’t be allowed in, at least not permanently.

But with all that said, do you think that 2241 of the Catechism is wrong for stating that a legitimate government has the authority and responsibility for establishing immigration laws? And while I’m at it, is Church Teaching wrong for saying that immigrants have a DUTY to obey the laws of their new nation?

All countries have some right to restrict immigration. As I have said, people also, as part of their basic entitlements as humans, have some entitlement to choose where in the world they want to live and work. It’s a question of balancing the two factors, neither of which is an absolute right or entitlement.

I don’t like the idea of people being permitted to rot in third-world countries when they could be doing great things elsewhere simply because by sheer bad luck they were born on the wrong side of a borderline.

 

[Caveman]

Well I happen to think people have some degree of entitlement to live and work where they want - as long as their aim IS to fruitfully work, contribute, not avoid paying appropriate taxes, etc. And some countries do go so far and become so stringent that they violate these basic entitlements. Not discussing America in particular.

What “basic entitlements”? No one has a “right” to just waltz into any given country because they think they have a “right” to. Did you not read 2241 of the Catechism? The part about nations having the right to determin their own immigration laws?

After all, where would the Holy Family have been if they’d had to go jump through modern-day American or Australian immigration hoops to get into Egypt? They’d have almost certainly been sent back to Israel to be massacred.

Lily, that’s just a silly argument. And besides… Isreal, Judea, Egypt, were all part of the Roman Empire. No passport required.

Yes, because at the time they could. Which is precisely my point. If they came today with the skills and qualifications they had then, they would make no less excellent citizens and contributors to our country, to the point where any country would be mad to turn them away. Yet quite likely today they wouldn’t be allowed in, at least not permanently.

So what? Like I said before, if you don’t agree with your nations stringent (as you see them) immigration laws, then vote them out of office. Remember democracy… representational government… all that jazz?

All countries have some right to restrict immigration. As I have said, people also, as part of their basic entitlements as humans, have some entitlement to choose where in the world they want to live and work. It’s a question of balancing the two factors, neither of which is an absolute right or entitlement.

“some right”? Lily, they have every right.

I don’t like the idea of people being permitted to rot in third-world countries when they could be doing great things elsewhere simply because by sheer bad luck they were born on the wrong side of a borderline.

You know, not that long ago, Australia was looked upon as a back-water 3d world country. Isn’t it amazing what can happen when people steel their resolve? Is it really that inconcievable that a country can be successful… even against what some might consider insurmountable odds?

 

[LilyM]

Caveman:

LilyM:

After all, where would the Holy Family have been if they’d had to go jump through modern-day American or Australian immigration hoops to get into Egypt? They’d have almost certainly been sent back to Israel to be massacred

.

Lily, that’s just a silly argument. And besides… Isreal, Judea, Egypt, were all part of the Roman Empire. No passport required.

No, it’s entirely pertinent. Sometimes people need to move when they need to move - and at times, to save their own lives and livelihoods, they need to be able to do so without some of the niceties of bureaucratic requirements.

caveman:

Like I said before, if you don’t agree with your nations stringent (as you see them) immigration laws, then vote them out of office. Remember democracy… representational government… all that jazz?

Representative democracy? Does the church say anything about democracy being an especially good or appropriate form of government? At times putting a flock of actual sheep in charge of a country would be a better option. As the history of both our countries amply demonstrates.

Not that at present there are too many better alternatives, neither do I choose where to live solely based on immigration policy, nor do most people. So they and I make the best of a bad lot :getholy:

You know, not that long ago, Australia was looked upon as a back-water 3d world country. Isn’t it amazing what can happen when people steel their resolve? Is it really that inconcievable that a country can be successful… even against what some might consider insurmountable odds?

Funny, same with America. Funnier still that our most successful periods as nations tend to coincide with the times when our immigration policies are the least restrictive.

Nations are built upon people who are willing to work to build them up, caveman - the poor tired huddled masses, *both *those who arrive legally and those who don’t but still work their butts off. And plenty of illegals do just that, because they’re living where they want to rather than being forced to remain where they don’t want to be.

 

[Caesar]

Can someone please explain to me what motivated Pope John Paul II to give this man a Cardinal’s hat?