Cdl Mahony's "Cesar Chavez Mass"

[puzzleannie]

Cdl Mahony of Los Angeles is planning something called “The Cesar Chaves Mass” that is obviously aimed at attracting illegal aliens and those who support them.

Only one problem… Cesar Chavez isn’t axactly the Patron Saint of Illegals that many paint his to be. If anything, Chavez was hard core anti-illegal.
.

the diocesan website and local press coverage of this Mass promotes it as a recognition of the struggles of low wage workers in general and farm workers in particular, and refers to immigrants in general, not illegals immigrants, so I think assumption stated by OP about the Cardinal’s intentions are unwarranted.

this has become a thread to debate illegal immigration, because of that assumption. If OP wanted to initiate that debate he could have done so based on any number of other news links.

 

[kangnamdragon]

No, this isn’t a Requem Mass… it’s for “comprehensive immigration reform” for illegals, using the name of someone (Chavez) who was openly ANTI-illegal.

Personally, I find the whole thing absurd.

I am not sure there is a Eucharistic Prayer for Mass of the Illegals.

 

[Caveman]

No, it’s entirely pertinent. Sometimes people need to move when they need to move - and at times, to save their own lives and livelihoods, they need to be able to do so without some of the niceties of bureaucratic requirements.

Then strive to change your nation’s laws. Like I said before… flooding a nation with lawbreakers is a hullava way to initiate change.

Representative democracy? Does the church say anything about democracy being an especially good or appropriate form of government? At times putting a flock of actual sheep in charge of a country would be a better option. As the history of both our countries amply demonstrates.

Of course The Church doesn’t say that… but the Church does talk about legitimate governments. Yet again, if youdon’t like the lawmakers you have, vote 'em out!

Not that at present there are too many better alternatives, neither do I choose where to live solely based on immigration policy, nor do most people. So they and I make the best of a bad lot :getholy:

Then WORK towards a better alternative. Don’t advocate breaking the laws (as I say generically tono one in particular)

Funny, same with America. Funnier still that our most successful periods as nations tend to coincide with the times when our immigration policies are the least restrictive.

You’re absolutely right!! But surely you aren’t comparing 1850 America with 2007 America, are you? Let me say again, even present day, America takes in more legal immigrants then the rest of the world combined.

Nations are built upon people who are willing to work to build them up, caveman - the poor tired huddled masses, *both *those who arrive legally and those who don’t but still work their butts off. And plenty of illegals do just that, because they’re living where they want to rather than being forced to remain where they don’t want to be.

And they’ve (the ilegals) still broken the 8th Comandement… the CCC… and the laws of my country. Like I’ve asked ad nauseum (and never got a response to), why is it so hard to play by the rules, especially when millions and millions already do?

 

[Caveman]

the diocesan website and local press coverage of this Mass promotes it as a recognition of the struggles of low wage workers in general and farm workers in particular, and refers to immigrants in general, not illegals immigrants, so I think assumption stated by OP about the Cardinal’s intentions are unwarranted.

this has become a thread to debate illegal immigration, because of that assumption. If OP wanted to initiate that debate he could have done so based on any number of other news links.

Puzzle,
What do you think the good cardinal means by “comprehensive immigration reform”?

Who do you think that’s directed towards?

 

[Lance]

I sincerly hope none of you who have bleeding hearts for the illegals ever have your car hit by a drunk illegal with no insurance. The one who hit my son in law posted bond then left for his Eastern European home land where he is safe and beyond the law of the US. Meanwhile my SIL was out of work for 6 months, had to pay much of his own hospital/truck repair bills. The illegal also skipped out on his hospital bills. My wife works at the hospital, so I know. This means that all the other patients are paying for this scum bag’s medical bills. I have no sympathy for illegals. Round them all up and send them back home and take what ever possessions they have, sell them to compensate people like my SIL. I don’t care if they have been here 1 hour or 50 years. Send them home. Send the people who hire them to prison for 10 years, no time off for good behavior, no club Fed, let them do hard time. The Catholic Church should be more concerned for the people who are harmed by illeagals and less concerned with protecting people who have no right to be here. If Mahony and the rest of you have so much sympathy for the illeagals, go live in their country and change the laws and governments there. I am not responsible for them and I refuse to help them.

 

[krokal]

Caveman, you want immigration reform.
Cardinal Mahoney wants immigration reform.

Chill.

The Cardinal is saying the mass in honor of Cesar Chavez who if alive today, would no doubt want immigration reform as well. This argument is not about illegal vs. legal or amnesty vs. deportation, its about reform. Stop spinning!

Lance, I’m sorry that happened to your family, and while you may have no sympathy for illegal immigrants, the USCCB, and The Church, do.

And by the way, illegals have a right to be here, a human right. Since when is it illegal to migrate in order to feed your family?

 

[JLSacred]

Lance, I’m sorry for your son’s troubles, but getting hit by an uninsured driver who is an American citizen happens too, and usually they also are irresponsible people. Your son should carry uninsured motorist insurence to plan for this eventuality. My brother also had his car damaged by a hit and run drunk driver, I tracked down the car, she was arrested and convicted, but he never got a dime. She was a local drunk coming home from the Eagles, and she was an American. My brother learned a lesson from that about the importance on uninsured motorist insurence.

 

[Lance]

Lance, I’m sorry for your son’s troubles, but getting hit by an uninsured driver who is an American citizen happens too, and usually they also are irresponsible people. Your son should carry uninsured motorist insurence to plan for this eventuality. My brother also had his car damaged by a hit and run drunk driver, I tracked down the car, she was arrested and convicted, but he never got a dime. She was a local drunk coming home from the Eagles, and she was an American. My brother learned a lesson from that about the importance on uninsured motorist insurence.

He had uninsured motorist insurance, you have to have it in Illinois. It does not cover lost wages and deductions. I still say send them home and if you want to take care of them send your money, not mine, to them in their home countries or better yet go live with them, give them your money and time, help them change their government. At least your brother got a day in court and had a chance to face the person who hit him, my SIL was cheated out of that by an illegal and a government that couldn’t care less about the plight of it citizens as long as there is a supply of cheap labor for the wealthy to exploit.

 

[Lance]

Caveman, you want immigration reform.
Cardinal Mahoney wants immigration reform.

Chill.

The Cardinal is saying the mass in honor of Cesar Chavez who if alive today, would no doubt want immigration reform as well. This argument is not about illegal vs. legal or amnesty vs. deportation, its about reform. Stop spinning!

Lance, I’m sorry that happened to your family, and while you may have no sympathy for illegal immigrants, the USCCB, and The Church, do.

And by the way, illegals have a right to be here, a human right. Since when is it illegal to migrate in order to feed your family?

Try crossing into Mexico from it’s southern border without the proper papers and you will find out since when it is illegal. You are wrong they have no right to be here and they deserve to be sent home and the people who hire them deserve to be sent to prison. End of story!

 

[Caveman]

this has become a thread to debate illegal immigration, because of that assumption. If OP wanted to initiate that debate he could have done so based on any number of other news links.

Sorry, I should have addressed this in my last response to you ----
I’ve tried to get this thread back on the initial topic, but there are some who intend to discuss illegal immigration, and illegal immigration alone.

So you’re right Puzzle. We should keep on topic. If there is anyone who would like to discuss illegal immigration only, please feel free to Private me.

So in the spirit of keeping this on topic, Puzzle, let me reinterate that I find the cardinal using the name of someone who was blatantly anti-illegal alien as a drawing card for the “plight” of the illegals, to be absured/laughable/very, very sad, indeed.

 

[Caveman]

Caveman, you want immigration reform.
Cardinal Mahoney wants immigration reform.!

.
Nahhh… the cardinal wants blanket amnesty for blatant lawbreakers. I don’t want “immigration reform”. I want this nations laws enforced. Big difference, wouldn’t you say?

The Cardinal is saying the mass in honor of Cesar Chavez who if alive today, would no doubt want immigration reform as well. This argument is not about illegal vs. legal or amnesty vs. deportation, its about reform. Stop spinning!

That’s nothing more than a guess on your part. And what’s this nonsense about “reform”? The only reform I want, is that we have so-called leaders who have the backbone to enforce both Church and secular laws. As of yet, we have neither.

Lance, I’m sorry that happened to your family, and while you may have no sympathy for illegal immigrants, the USCCB, and The Church, do.

I invite you to read 2241 of the CCC. The Church may have sympathy for them, but The Church also expects them to obey the laws of both God and man.

And by the way, illegals have a right to be here, a human right. Since when is it illegal to migrate in order to feed your family?

Hmmm… so should we just trash out imigration laws? While were’ at it, let’s scratch 2241 of the CCC and the 8th Commandment while we’re at it. What say?

 

[Michael_C]

I am on the east coast and am directly affected by very little of what goes on in California, so I really don’t have a dog in this fight.

you do if you pay health insurance.

 

[Caveman]

I sincerly hope none of you who have bleeding hearts for the illegals ever have your car hit by a drunk illegal with no insurance. The one who hit my son in law posted bond then left for his Eastern European home land where he is safe and beyond the law of the US. Meanwhile my SIL was out of work for 6 months, had to pay much of his own hospital/truck repair bills. The illegal also skipped out on his hospital bills. My wife works at the hospital, so I know. This means that all the other patients are paying for this scum bag’s medical bills. I have no sympathy for illegals. Round them all up and send them back home and take what ever possessions they have, sell them to compensate people like my SIL. I don’t care if they have been here 1 hour or 50 years. Send them home. Send the people who hire them to prison for 10 years, no time off for good behavior, no club Fed, let them do hard time. The Catholic Church should be more concerned for the people who are harmed by illeagals and less concerned with protecting people who have no right to be here. If Mahony and the rest of you have so much sympathy for the illeagals, go live in their country and change the laws and governments there. I am not responsible for them and I refuse to help them.

Lance,
You think I should bring up two my brothers-in-law who are about to go out of buisiness (and fire MANY American citizens) because of illegal aliens?

I wonder of Cdl Mahony will have a Mass for them?

 

[childofmary1143]

The Holy Family fled Israel because the King ordered a genocide of all Male newborns.

The Holy Family weren’t immigrating to Egypt but were REFUGEES. That is ENTIRELY DIFFERENT than just immigrating.

 

[Lance]

Lance,
You think I should bring up two my brothers-in-law who are about to go out of buisiness (and fire MANY American citizens) because of illegal aliens?

I wonder of Cdl Mahony will have a Mass for them?

Only in your dreams. When was the last time the Cardinal had a mass for Mother Teresa? There is someone who truely cared about the poor.

 

[Caveman]

Only in your dreams. When was the last time the Cardinal had a mass for Mother Teresa? There is someone who truely cared about the poor.

WELL SAID!!!

 

[Caveman]

The Holy Family fled Israel because the King ordered a genocide of all Male newborns.

The Holy Family weren’t immigrating to Egypt but were REFUGEES. That is ENTIRELY DIFFERENT than just immigrating.

Absolutly right COM!

Last time I checked, America DID have stautes in place for legitimate refugees.
Anyhow, I sure would like to see Cdl mahony get back in the business of saving souls, instead of trying to save society.

He’s a Prince of The Church, not a super-social worker.

 

[JLSacred]

Absolutly right COM!

Last time I checked, America DID have stautes in place for legitimate refugees.
Anyhow, I sure would like to see Cdl mahony get back in the business of saving souls, instead of trying to save society.

He’s a Prince of The Church, not a super-social worker.

I think the Cardinal is probably concerned with his main constituancy in his Archdiocese, which is Hispanic. Most Hispanics are concerned with the issues that pertain to them, one of which is immigration. Many of them are poor and sympathise with the plight of illegals. So, I’d say he’s trying to be supportive of their concerns.

He probably thinks that we should change our laws and not be so restrictive of immigration. Many people do feel this way, out of sympathy for some of the more powerless people in the Hemisphere, the Mexican underclass. They are basically economic refugees looking for a way to support their families, and the Cardinal probably has a soft spot in his heart for them.

 

[ncjohn]

Again though, here is the text of the announcement:

Join us in celebrating Cesar E. Chavez’ legacy and commitment to the struggle for justice and dignity for all low-wage workers. The mass will be held on Sunday, March 25, 2007 at 3:30pm at the Cathedral of Our Lady of the Angels. The address is 555 West Temple Street, Los Angeles, CA 90012.

Cardinal Roger Mahony will inspire and encourage our community to action on the issues that matter most to us:

• Recognition of the important contributions of immigrants in our society and their rights as human beings, and for comprehensive immigration reform
• Civic action for real political and social change.
• The plight of all farm workers, especially those affected by the recent citrus freeze.
• The continuous struggle for low-wage workers’ right to organize and healthcare for all.

There is not a single word in there about supporting illegal immigrants.

Cardinal Mahoney may indeed support a form of immigration reform that does include some kind of amnesty provision; I don’t know. But I do know that there are many knowledgeable Catholics who do support such a thing, including many bishops, and that there is nothing un-Catholic about it as Catholics are totally free to consider that there may be different ways to solve the problem.

That does NOT however translate into supporting illegal immigration. It only means that diiferent people may have different ideas about what to do about those who are already here. But nothing in this announcement says even that much, and certainly does not indicate a “support” for illegal immigration.

I’m not going to get into debates here about the best way to accomplish reform, as even the OP says that is not the intent of the thread. But as Geezerbob said early on, imputing motives to someone, when the actual announcement doesn’t support any such implication, is just wrong.

Chavez did in fact support better conditions for low wage workers. This announcement deals with support for low wage workers. It does not address supporting illegal workers so whether Chavez would or would not have supported that is irrelevant.

There are plenty of other threads to debate what kind of immigration reform might be “best”. Like a few others here though, I think the criticism leveled here as to the intent of the Cardinal is misplaced. Every item noted in that announcement is in accord with established Catholic teaching. There is no noted support for illegal immigration; only support for fair treatment of low wage workers.

Speculation on intent, to the point of condemning motives without proof of that intent, is nothing more than unfounded gossip, and sinful in itself since we are always called upon to give the benefit of the doubt in the absence of proof, as noted in that same catechism being quoted about lying.

Peace,

 

[Lance]

I think the Cardinal is probably concerned with his main constituancy in his Archdiocese, which is Hispanic. Most Hispanics are concerned with the issues that pertain to them, one of which is immigration. Many of them are poor and sympathise with the plight of illegals. So, I’d say he’s trying to be supportive of their concerns.

He probably thinks that we should change our laws and not be so restrictive of immigration. Many people do feel this way, out of sympathy for some of the more powerless people in the Hemisphere, the Mexican underclass. They are basically economic refugees looking for a way to support their families, and the Cardinal probably has a soft spot in his heart for them.

I am concerned that I pay too much to the federal government in taxes, should my bishop support a tax boycott by holding an anti-tax mass because of my concern?