Celebrate Recovery

[CopticChristian]

I think I’d feel better about it if that nights’ speaker wasn’t anti-Catholic and if there were other Catholics in attendance.

This forum has groups you can join. You may want to start one that is specific for your needs. I am sure that would work.

forums.catholic-questions.org/group.php

SMART recovery has online meetings. You don’t identify yourself as an addict/alcoholic or diseased…you just say…this is what I struggle with…I understand you have depression and anxiety and you may well say that too if you wish.

You may want to look into online groups like this that satisfy the needs you have.

You may want to look into visiting Alanon. I don’t like the entire 12 step thing however Alanon is for the spouses of the so called addict/alcoholic. These meetings in my opinion are more oriented towards life issues and for the most part are women. There are occasionaly some men. They tend to talk more about things like struggles that are caused by others however the focus is not on being different like the AA phenomenon.

When I was researching these groups I found AA and every other 12 step program oriented towards the perpetrator depressing and Alanon not depressing. I found Alanon uplifting. They do use the 12 steps however it is not like the rigid religious orientation that the AA programs take.

There were fewer anti-catholics and I used to be Catholics at the Alanon meetings and I would dare say more that may be Church going and less critical of Catholicism. That was my experience.

It sounds like you want to be able to meet and talk to people and I will pray that you find something that works for you.

 

[kirkdickinson]

A couple things that are different about CR over AA is that in AA people identify themselves as their addiction. “Hi, I am Joe and I’m an alcoholic”. In CR we do not identify ourselves by our addiction, but define ourselves by our relationship with Christ first and foremost. For instance I identify myself this way:
“Hi, I’m Kirk, a grateful believer in Jesus Christ, who has delivered me from my addition to alcohol (5yrs-5mo), am currently working on my issues of co-dependancy and overeating…”
Some identify themselves like: “Hi I’m Mike and I am a disciple of Jesus Christ who suffers with xxx…”

I think it is very bad to keep telling your self you are an alcoholic. When you do that you deny the power of Jesus Christ to heal you. Also, purely from a psychological perspective, you keep saying you are something long enough you reinforce that attitude. I don’t like it.

Part of our CR training tells us that “CR is not a life sentence”… AA tells their people they are “Alcoholics for life”. I believe if you truly turn your will and life over to God like step 3 says, he can and will cure you of your addictions.

I once said this:

*The AA Big Book, says that “half measures availed us nothing.”

Believing in a “power greater than ourselves” ---- if not specifically called “God” ---- is, in my humble opinion, the greatest half measure of all, and a cop out for those who want sobriety but not want to have to believe in, or turn their lives over to, Jesus Christ.*

That did not endear me with my AA friends very much.

We do have some x-Catholics in our group. They were raised Catholic and got very very far from their upbringing and deep into addictions. They found help through CR. Would you rather these people remain in their addictions and keep their identity as Catholic, or would you rather they get sober? I would rather they get sober.

 

[CopticChristian]

A couple things that are different about CR over AA is that in AA people identify themselves as their addiction. “Hi, I am Joe and I’m an alcoholic”. In CR we do not identify ourselves by our addiction, but define ourselves by our relationship with Christ first and foremost. For instance I identify myself this way:
"Hi, I’m Kirk, a grateful believer in Jesus Christ, who has delivered me from my addition to alcohol (5yrs-5mo), am currently working on my issues of co-dependancy and overeating…"Some identify themselves like: “Hi I’m Mike and I am a disciple of Jesus Christ who suffers with xxx…”

I think it is very bad to keep telling your self you are an alcoholic. When you do that you deny the power of Jesus Christ to heal you. Also, purely from a psychological perspective, you keep saying you are something long enough you reinforce that attitude. I don’t like it.

Part of our CR training tells us that “CR is not a life sentence”… AA tells their people they are “Alcoholics for life”. I believe if you truly turn your will and life over to God like step 3 says, he can and will cure you of your addictions.

I once said this:

*The AA Big Book, says that “half measures availed us nothing.”

Believing in a “power greater than ourselves” ---- if not specifically called “God” ---- is, in my humble opinion, the greatest half measure of all, and a cop out for those who want sobriety but not want to have to believe in, or turn their lives over to, Jesus Christ.*

That did not endear me with my AA friends very much.

We do have some x-Catholics in our group. They were raised Catholic and got very very far from their upbringing and deep into addictions. They found help through CR. Would you rather these people remain in their addictions and keep their identity as Catholic, or would you rather they get sober? I would rather they get sober.

Catholics have a relationship with Christ.

Co-dependency is part of the addiction jargon that you need to eliminate if you truly want to be free of the notion of being an addict.

Overeating is a choice…have you heard of gluttony that is a sin?

CR is Protestant. You offer the choice Catholic/Addict or Protestant and free. How about Catholic/addict/choosing wrongly/sin…resolution and remain Catholic.

CR is a Protestant organization that I encourage all Catholics to stay clear of as it is intent on conversion to Protestant thought. The AA paradigm is to rid yourself of addiction to things and getting addicted to AA. Here the addiction is to CR.

I see CR the same as I see AA with the exception that it is to engage those with problems in Protestant thought and to build membership. You may want to look at this…

psychoheresy-aware.org/12steps1.html

psychoheresy-aware.org/12steps2.html

and then consider that CR has done nothing more than taken the AA paradigm and fixed it for Protestants.

If I had problems I could not solve and I was offered AA, CR, I would stay miserable and look for another way…I could not live with either paradigm.

 

[kirkdickinson]

Can I ask you if you are speaking about this from a background of having been through recovery from some addiction?

I have seen lives overwhelmingly changed by CR. People that came in literally living on the street with only 4 hours of sobriety from hard stuff like Oxycontin and Heroin and have had life changing things happen to them. One young man has gotten cleaned up from a 12 year addiction and is going to college and is very active in our church. OK, so that is membership building I know, but I make no apologies. (He wasn’t Catholic before, but raised Pentecostal, so we didn’t steal one.)

I do not see anything in our CR circular that is contrary to anything in the Bible. If it were, I would not be involved in it.

Different people come out of their addictions in different ways, some people have a “Damascus” experience, immediately change and never go back. With myself it was several false tries to quit drinking until I was ready to give it all over to God.

We do not teach that it is a sickness or a disease. It is a flaw in our personality and a sin. And yes, Gluttony is a sin, I am a sinner with many sins, anger, lust, greed, all in greater or lesser degrees. Anybody who denies that they live with no sin is a liar. (Rom 3:23) I am also a sinner saved by the Grace of God (Eph. 2:8-9) who asks him daily for forgiveness.

You can keep saying that it is a “Protestant” program if you wish, that is where it started and that is where it usually found, but I think of it as a “Christ centered 12-step program”. We spend a lot of time studying the word of God and learning what the word has to say about us and our relationship to Christ.

I believe that true church of Christ is not found in denominations, or schisms, or any man made church definition. Rev 7:9, John 10:16, John 14:21, John 15:9-10, 14-17

Call me a Protestant if you must, because I am not a Catholic, but whatever you call me, call me a “Grateful believer in Jesus Christ”

-Kirk

 

[ufamtobie]

Anxiety disorders and depression ARE

diseases – they’re mental illnesses. I’ve had years of therapy, including CBT and medication, and while I feel better than I used to, I’ll never be 100% free from this.

Faith,

At the bottom of your thread you have written the Bible verse “I can do all things through Christ who strengtheneth me.” Philippians 4:13. You don’t need “Celebrate Recovery”

Jesus Christ is the answer to every problem mental illness. You need to do is visit the Eucharist on a daily bases leave your anxieties depression with Him, during each visit then attend Mass on a daily and receive the Body and Blood Soul and Divinity the Eucharist on a daily basis say the Rosary on a daily bases, and find yourself a holy priest and ask him to be your spiritual director and tell him all your worries and fears remember Scripture says “take it to the Church”… And there is only one Church.

Faith, in the mean while offer you anxieties depression and unite them to our Lord Passion, I did, This is called redemptive suffering.

Redemptive suffering is our Roman Catholic belief that human suffering, when accepted and offered up in union with the Passion of Jesus, can remit the just punishment for one’s sins or for the sins of another.

I to had a bout anxieties and depression for months I did all that I have told you to do above and now I “Celebrate Recovery” from within my Catholic Church praise be to Jesus Christ and my Blessed Mother Mary.

Ufam Tobie

 

[jesuspsr]

There is a Catholic CB Recovery that incorporates the 12 steps with the 8 Beatitudes.
Here’s a link to it.
sacredheartboise.org/adult/celebraterecovery.htm

Here’s a facebook page for CR Recovery Catholic in Sacramento, CA
facebook.com/pages/Celebrate-Recovery-Immaculate-Conception-Church-Sacramento-CA/122979967716930

And here’s one that does a good job in explainning CB.
stfrances.net/celebrate_recovery.htm

All are Catholic. More and more Catholic Churches are getting into CB.

Good programs.

God bless

jesus g

 

[Faith1960]

There is a Catholic CB Recovery that incorporates the 12 steps with the 8 Beatitudes.
Here’s a link to it.
sacredheartboise.org/adult/celebraterecovery.htm

Here’s a facebook page for CR Recovery Catholic in Sacramento, CA
facebook.com/pages/Celebrate-Recovery-Immaculate-Conception-Church-Sacramento-CA/122979967716930

And here’s one that does a good job in explainning CB.
stfrances.net/celebrate_recovery.htm

All are Catholic. More and more Catholic Churches are getting into CB.

Good programs.

God bless

jesus g

I wish we had a CR at a Catholic parish in my area. And no, I don’t wish to start one. I’ve already spoken to the woman who sets up things up in our parishs’ Adult Resource Center about my attending the program and she does not look in favor of CR.

 

[kirkdickinson]

I believe that Celebrate Recovery is such a good program that our group would be willing to help any Catholic Parish or group in our area set one up. I have generated tons of graphics, extended slides for the teachings, etc… I would be willing to co-ordinate with a priest or lay person from the Catholic faith who wanted to set on up in our area, even right across the street from our church. (on a different night of course)

We would be willing to help with leader training and would even discuss any problems with the program that conflict with Catholic beliefs. I know there are several Catholic groups with CR already, so it is do-able.

I will have to check out those Catholic CR groups that were linked to.



Kirk

 

[Sufjon]

I suggest you read and study, memorize, put into action Veritatis Splendor, like Dorothy in the wizard of Oz as you go looking for Christ…there is no place like home…recall that many that go looking never realize that what they left was as precious as what you have

…

“Seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you.” I do not see that He specified whether that was the Shrine of the Immaculate Conception, the mega church down the street, The Greater Mount Moriah Solid Rock Truly Holiness Baptist Church and Funeral Parlor, or simply to look within yourself. The commission you are given is to seek and knock. The promise is that you will find. To discount one person’s search in favor of another is just a sectarian distraction, is it not? If there was only one proper journey, it follows that this world should have in it only one person.

This program is nothing more than a way to build a Protestant Church and to get what they got you can read the bible, that is what they say you should do, you can go to your Church/receive Christ…they can’t do that…and you can look into CBT and make choices, that is what they, Catholic Church and CBT are saying…why go where you can’t get what you got.

Both Protestants and Catholics either have built, or are building churches. Jesus gave Peter a commission to build a church. Equally as important to keep in mind is that Jesus taught by example. In the example of His life, He never so much as put two stones together to build a material building, house of worship, rectory, monastery, convent, parish hall or any sort of structure, never formed a committee, and insofar as I am aware, He never held a fund raising drive, or carried with Him anything more than what He needed for that day. This leads me to believe that in regards to church, He might have been referring to a shining edifice of a temple in the hearts of His followers. The world is God’s creation and therefore every crevice and overlooked spot is consecrated ground. Life was meant to be lived in it, and among our fellow beings. It is not about putting up walls. The church is inside you. Anything else is a distraction that causes divisions among people. Spending a lot of time on such things takes one away from one’s Father’s business.

Your friend
Sufjon

 

[ufamtobie]

…
Both Protestants and Catholics either have built, or are building churches. Jesus gave Peter a commission to build a church. Equally as important to keep in mind is that Jesus taught by example. In the example of His life, He never so much as put two stones together to build a material building, house of worship, rectory, monastery, convent, parish hall or any sort of structure, never formed a committee, and insofar as I am aware, He never held a fund raising drive, or carried with Him anything more than what He needed for that day. This leads me to believe that in regards to church, He might have been referring to a shining edifice of a temple in the hearts of His followers. The world is God’s creation and therefore every crevice and overlooked spot is consecrated ground. Life was meant to be lived in it, and among our fellow beings. It is not about putting up walls. The church is inside you. Anything else is a distraction that causes divisions among people. Spending a lot of time on such things takes one away from one’s Father’s business.
Your friend
Sufjon

SurJon,

You write so eloquently, but to no avail for you are wrong having half truths you are twisting and cunning The Lord said to beware of people like you. Yes, Jesus did Give Peter a Commission to build his Church a (House) so that His Church the (People) can go to to worship Him in and celebrate the memory of him for He said do this in memory of me. Jesus Christ Himself entered the Temple in Jerusalem “made by men’s hands” to Worship His Father!

SurJon,Yes do “keep in mind Jesus taught by examples” with that said: You should follow His examples and enter a building/Temple/Church as Jesus did to Worship Him: If you talk the talk walk the walk into a Church and worship Jesus There.

SurJon, you mention above “He never formed a committee” Wrong again! Jesus Christ did form the 12 Apostles. SurJon, the definition of committee: Committee a group of people appointed or elected to administer, discuss, or make reports concerning a subject on which its members are authorities.

True we are the Church, but also, we need a place/Church to come together to worship Our God in, again, Jesus Christ entered the Temple to pray. Jesus Christ himself said that he’s leaving to prepare a place for us if you don’t believe me read John 14:2 In my Father’s house there are many mansions. If not, I would have told you: because I go to prepare a place for you. As Jesus Christ is preparing a place perhaps using stones brilliant ones for us Christians in Heaven He committed men to build his catholic Church on earth, you know the kind the one that has four walls.

SurJon, as for the distractions you mentioned above RE: Church/building… Tell me was the Temple where our Lord worshiped His Father, a distraction as well, because it was a building?

Many people think like you do they want to believe their own thinking because many are just Lazy to enter a Church and some just want to lead people astray.

Ufam Tobie

 

[Sufjon]

You write so eloquently, but to no avail for you are wrong having half truths you are twisting and cunning The Lord said to beware of people like you.

The Lord said to love people like me. I am your neighbor. As for the wolves, was He talking about people like me or people like Paul? He said by their works you shall know them. I never hunted down Christians or anyone else for that matter. Paul did. I never wrote denigrating things about women or homosexuals, all of whom are God’s beloved children and call it God’s words. Who are the wolves and who are the sheep? The sheep and the wolves are both creations of God. The one who loves the sheep as well as the wolf is the one who sees the Lord.

Yes, Jesus did Give Peter a Commission to build his Church a (House) so that His Church the (People) can go to to worship Him in and celebrate the memory of him for He said do this in memory of me.

He broke the bread and gave it to His disciples and told them to do that in memory of Him. That does not imply build a building to do it in. As I recall, he was in a regular home at the time.

Jesus Christ Himself entered the Temple in Jerusalem “made by men’s hands” to Worship His Father!

Jesus prayed in the temple, prayed in the desert, prayed on the cross. All are places in God’s kingdom. You don’t need a church house.

SurJon, you mention above “He never formed a committee” Wrong again! Jesus Christ did form the 12 Apostles. SurJon, the definition of committee: Committee a group of people appointed or elected to administer, discuss, or make reports concerning a subject on which its members are authorities

Elections? Reports?

True we are the Church, but also, we need a place/Church to come together to worship Our God in, again, Jesus Christ entered the Temple to pray. Jesus Christ himself said that he’s leaving to prepare a place for us if you don’t believe me read

John 14:2 In my Father’s house there are many mansions. If not, I would have told you: because I go to prepare a place for you. As Jesus Christ is preparing a place perhaps using stones brilliant ones for us Christians in Heaven He committed men to build his catholic Church on earth, you know the kind the one that has four walls.

Again, Jesus prayed anywhere. His fathers House having many mansions more likely is referring to our hearts and souls as mansions. It certainly is not a commission to build a structure of any sort. That’s a stretch, but an understandable one after listening to stretches all our lives. He gave us a place to come together, and we keep committing atrocities in it.

SurJon, as for the distractions you mentioned above RE: Church/building… Tell me was the Temple where our Lord worshiped His Father, a distraction as well, because it was a building?

Was the cross a distraction? He also prayed on that. Does it mean we should hang people on crosses so they might pray like Jesus? He prayed everywhere,

Many people think like you do they want to believe their own thinking because many are just Lazy to enter a Church and some just want to lead people astray.

I It is much more difficult to see the world as God’s church and to act as though you are in it at all times.

Your friend
Sufjon

 

[Sufjon]

True we are the Church, but also, we need a place/Church to come together to worship Our God in, again, Jesus Christ entered the Temple to pray.

The temple was the center of Jewish life. There, rituals were performed by the priests and people bought sacrifices for the priests to use in these rituals. Ordinary people were not allowed to participate. It was also a market place, a meeting place and for people at the time, pretty much like the grocery store or the gas station. It would be hard to avoid. I think Jesus went there because it was a model of the world itself, and the world is God’s temple. The Temple was only emblematic of it… Therefore, Jesus’ words are full of meaning when He said that His temple should be a house pf prayer, yet people made of it a den of thieves. The temple is also emblematic of the temple of the human heart. Make it a house of prayer, not a den of thieves or a place where divisive thoughts fester into actions such as putting up walls, judging others and forgetting that the very ground we walk on is sacred.

Jesus Christ himself said that he’s leaving to prepare a place for us if you don’t believe me read

John 14:2 In my Father’s house there are many mansions.

Yes, He went to build a place for you. That is clear. It is also clear that He built no place for you here, because He made it clear that His kingdom is not the sort to be built by an earthly king, with opulent buildings, golden instruments of worship and things like that. Again, He is acting in such a way as to serve as an example. He has built a place for you only insofar as you build a place for Him, and that place is in your heart. If you build a place for Him in your heart, you will find that it is in fact the self-same place that He built for you. One who has built a place for the Lord in his or her heart has a place in the heart of of the Lord, which is the place He has prepared for you. Such a person sees that both places are one in the same, therefore with no place in your heart fir the Lord, there is no realization of your place in the heart of the Lord. Again, they are one in the same.

It is therefore clear to me at least that His Father’s house does have many mansions. As many mansions as there are hearts in which to create one. If you will create one, He will occupy it.

Your friend
Sufjon

 

[PRmerger]

It is therefore clear to me at least that His Father’s house does have many mansions. As many mansions as there are hearts in which to create one. If you will create one, He will occupy it.

Your friend
Sufjon

Amen!

And once we allow Him to occupy it, we will be transformed.

It is then we who become conformed to His Image, rather than asking the God of the Universe to conform to our own beliefs.

 

[CopticChristian]

Faith,

At the bottom of your thread you have written the Bible verse “I can do all things through Christ who strengtheneth me.” Philippians 4:13. You don’t need “Celebrate Recovery”

Jesus Christ is the answer to every problem mental illness. You need to do is visit the Eucharist on a daily bases leave your anxieties depression with Him, during each visit then attend Mass on a daily and receive the Body and Blood Soul and Divinity the Eucharist on a daily basis say the Rosary on a daily bases, and find yourself a holy priest and ask him to be your spiritual director and tell him all your worries and fears remember Scripture says “take it to the Church”… And there is only one Church.

Faith, in the mean while offer you anxieties depression and unite them to our Lord Passion, I did, This is called redemptive suffering.

Redemptive suffering is our Roman Catholic belief that human suffering, when accepted and offered up in union with the Passion of Jesus, can remit the just punishment for one’s sins or for the sins of another.

I to had a bout anxieties and depression for months I did all that I have told you to do above and now I “Celebrate Recovery” from within my Catholic Church praise be to Jesus Christ and my Blessed Mother Mary.

Ufam Tobie

Amen, Amen, and Amen…

 

[CopticChristian]

Can I ask you if you are speaking about this from a background of having been through recovery from some addiction?

I have seen lives overwhelmingly changed by CR. People that came in literally living on the street with only 4 hours of sobriety from hard stuff like Oxycontin and Heroin and have had life changing things happen to them. One young man has gotten cleaned up from a 12 year addiction and is going to college and is very active in our church. OK, so that is membership building I know, but I make no apologies. (He wasn’t Catholic before, but raised Pentecostal, so we didn’t steal one.)

I do not see anything in our CR circular that is contrary to anything in the Bible. If it were, I would not be involved in it.

Different people come out of their addictions in different ways, some people have a “Damascus” experience, immediately change and never go back. With myself it was several false tries to quit drinking until I was ready to give it all over to God.

We do not teach that it is a sickness or a disease. It is a flaw in our personality and a sin. And yes, Gluttony is a sin, I am a sinner with many sins, anger, lust, greed, all in greater or lesser degrees. Anybody who denies that they live with no sin is a liar. (Rom 3:23) I am also a sinner saved by the Grace of God (Eph. 2:8-9) who asks him daily for forgiveness.

You can keep saying that it is a “Protestant” program if you wish, that is where it started and that is where it usually found, but I think of it as a “Christ centered 12-step program”. We spend a lot of time studying the word of God and learning what the word has to say about us and our relationship to Christ.

I believe that true church of Christ is not found in denominations, or schisms, or any man made church definition. Rev 7:9, John 10:16, John 14:21, John 15:9-10, 14-17

Call me a Protestant if you must, because I am not a Catholic, but whatever you call me, call me a “Grateful believer in Jesus Christ”

-Kirk

Read all my posts to see my understanding. What you believe is relevant to you.

 

[CopticChristian]

There is a Catholic CB Recovery that incorporates the 12 steps with the 8 Beatitudes.
Here’s a link to it.
sacredheartboise.org/adult/celebraterecovery.htm

Here’s a facebook page for CR Recovery Catholic in Sacramento, CA
facebook.com/pages/Celebrate-Recovery-Immaculate-Conception-Church-Sacramento-CA/122979967716930

And here’s one that does a good job in explainning CB.
stfrances.net/celebrate_recovery.htm

All are Catholic. More and more Catholic Churches are getting into CB.

Good programs.

God bless

jesus g

In your opinion! Based on what?

 

[CopticChristian]

I wish we had a CR at a Catholic parish in my area. And no, I don’t wish to start one. I’ve already spoken to the woman who sets up things up in our parishs’ Adult Resource Center about my attending the program and she does not look in favor of CR.

This would be the least of the evils. Can we do evil that good may come. To become Protestant to become addicted to Protestant thought to relieve our suffering even if it produces good is not consistent with the good that comes.

 

[CopticChristian]

I believe that Celebrate Recovery is such a good program that our group would be willing to help any Catholic Parish or group in our area set one up. I have generated tons of graphics, extended slides for the teachings, etc… I would be willing to co-ordinate with a priest or lay person from the Catholic faith who wanted to set on up in our area, even right across the street from our church. (on a different night of course)

We would be willing to help with leader training and would even discuss any problems with the program that conflict with Catholic beliefs. I know there are several Catholic groups with CR already, so it is do-able.

I will have to check out those Catholic CR groups that were linked to.



Kirk

This would be good to alleviate the evil of leaving the bosom of the Church. It would create a situation where you would not see “I used to be Catholic” in Protestant bodies. You cannot do evil to produce good.

 

[CopticChristian]

SurJon,

You write so eloquently, but to no avail for you are wrong having half truths you are twisting and cunning The Lord said to beware of people like you. Yes, Jesus did Give Peter a Commission to build his Church a (House) so that His Church the (People) can go to to worship Him in and celebrate the memory of him for He said do this in memory of me. Jesus Christ Himself entered the Temple in Jerusalem “made by men’s hands” to Worship His Father!

SurJon,Yes do “keep in mind Jesus taught by examples” with that said: You should follow His examples and enter a building/Temple/Church as Jesus did to Worship Him: If you talk the talk walk the walk into a Church and worship Jesus There.

SurJon, you mention above “He never formed a committee” Wrong again! Jesus Christ did form the 12 Apostles. SurJon, the definition of committee: Committee a group of people appointed or elected to administer, discuss, or make reports concerning a subject on which its members are authorities.

True we are the Church, but also, we need a place/Church to come together to worship Our God in, again, Jesus Christ entered the Temple to pray. Jesus Christ himself said that he’s leaving to prepare a place for us if you don’t believe me read John 14:2 In my Father’s house there are many mansions. If not, I would have told you: because I go to prepare a place for you. As Jesus Christ is preparing a place perhaps using stones brilliant ones for us Christians in Heaven He committed men to build his catholic Church on earth, you know the kind the one that has four walls.

SurJon, as for the distractions you mentioned above RE: Church/building… Tell me was the Temple where our Lord worshiped His Father, a distraction as well, because it was a building?

Many people think like you do they want to believe their own thinking because many are just Lazy to enter a Church and some just want to lead people astray.

Ufam Tobie

Amen, Amen, and Amen.

 

[CopticChristian]

Amen!

And once we allow Him to occupy it, we will be transformed.

It is then we who become conformed to His Image, rather than asking the God of the Universe to conform to our own beliefs.

Amen, Amen, Amen.