Celebrating the Latin Mass

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“This is the Mass that so many of the great saints attended, and I feel so close to them and to the continuity of the faith to those that came before us.”

St. Faustina, St. Maximilian Kolbe, St. Teresa Benedicta of the Cross and all the saints of Poland, pray for us!
St. Patrick, St. Brendan, St. Brigid and all the saints of Ireland, pray for us!
St. John of the Cross, St. Didacus of Alcala, St. Teresa of Avila and all the saints of Spain, pray for us!
St. Isabelle of France, St. Joan of Arc, St. Louis De Montfort and all the saints of France, pray for us!
St. Hildegard of Bingen, St. Notburga, St. Gertrude the Great and all the saints of Germany, pray for us!
St. Anthony of Padua, St. John of God, St. Isabel of Portugal and all the saints of Portugal, pray for us!
 
The Tridentine Mass is far more powerful than the lay mass. I never understood or agreed with the change to the vernacular.
 
Mike1955 said:
The Tridentine Mass is far more powerful than the lay mass. .
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That’s a rather blasphemous statement.

Not to mention that it is simply intellectually misguided.

Have you ranked the many different rites of the Catholic Church in a list from “least” to “most” powerful???
 
I have only attended one. I hope someday to be able to attend another.
 
TLM every Sunday and most Fridays. 80 miles each way through some very heavy traffic. It’s worth every moment. 👍 🙂
 
God willing I will be attending my first on Sunday, looking forward to wearing my new mantilla! 🙂 please pray for me!
 
Casilda said:
“This is the Mass that so many of the great saints attended, and I feel so close to them and to the continuity of the faith to those that came before us.”

St. Faustina, St. Maximilian Kolbe, St. Teresa Benedicta of the Cross and all the saints of Poland, pray for us!
St. Patrick, St. Brendan, St. Brigid and all the saints of Ireland, pray for us!
St. John of the Cross, St. Didacus of Alcala, St. Teresa of Avila and all the saints of Spain, pray for us!
St. Isabelle of France, St. Joan of Arc, St. Louis De Montfort and all the saints of France, pray for us!
St. Hildegard of Bingen, St. Notburga, St. Gertrude the Great and all the saints of Germany, pray for us!
St. Anthony of Padua, St. John of God, St. Isabel of Portugal and all the saints of Portugal, pray for us!
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St. Patrick, St. Brendan and St. Brigid probably would have used the Celtic Rite, not the Roman Rite of Trent.

St. John of the Cross, and St Teresa of Avila, the Carmelite rite.

St Didacus, possibly the Mozarabic Rite.

Many, many saints worshipped in rites much different from the post-Trent Roman Rite. This is particularly true of pre-Trent saints, of saints belonging to certain religious orders with their own rites (e.g. Carthusian, Carmelite) and saints, even post-Trent, living in particular areas us such as Milan (Ambrosian Rite) which had their own rites.

Trent in fact did away with many of the rites that pre-Trent saints would have used.
 
OraLabora said:
Many, many saints worshipped in rites much different from the post-Trent Roman Rite. This is particularly true of pre-Trent saints, of saints belonging to certain religious orders with their own rites (e.g. Carthusian, Carmelite) and saints, even post-Trent, living in particular areas us such as Milan (Ambrosian Rite) which had their own rites.

Trent in fact did away with many of the rites that pre-Trent saints would have used.
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Most of the pre-Tridentine rites would have looked similar to the Traditional Latin Mass still offered today. Ad orientem, Latin, chant, etc. Yes - the Novus Ordo Mass can be offered with all of these aspects, but unfortunately it is exceedingly rare. Not to mention, the Popes since the promulgation of the Novus Ordo, looked to as the de facto authority of how the Roman Rite is to be offered, often choose to offer the *Novus Ordo * with very few traditional trappings aside from the occasion Latin in the ordinary. That said, it is hard to make the case that the *Novus Ordo *is “meant to be offered” in a manner that more resembles the Traditional Latin Mass, as is often said on these forums. Regardless of the options given in the GIRM, the standard of the Novus Ordo set by the Popes certainly does not include the ad orientem posture, chant, etc.

Also, it should be mentioned that Trent only did away with rites that were “new” (developed within the 200 years preceding the council). The rites of the established religious orders, for example the Dominican Rite, to my knowledge, were left unaltered by the Council of Trent.
 
R_H_Benson said:
Most of the pre-Tridentine rites would have looked similar to the Traditional Latin Mass still offered today. Ad orientem, Latin, chant, etc. Yes - the Novus Ordo Mass can be offered with all of these aspects, but unfortunately it is exceedingly rare. Not to mention, the Popes since the promulgation of the Novus Ordo, looked to as the de facto authority of how the Roman Rite is to be offered, often choose to offer the *Novus Ordo * with very few traditional trappings aside from the occasion Latin in the ordinary. That said, it is hard to make the case that the *Novus Ordo *is “meant to be offered” in a manner that more resembles the Traditional Latin Mass, as is often said on these forums. Regardless of the options given in the GIRM, the standard of the Novus Ordo set by the Popes certainly does not include the ad orientem posture, chant, etc.

Also, it should be mentioned that Trent only did away with rites that were “new” (developed within the 200 years preceding the council). The rites of the established religious orders, for example the Dominican Rite, to my knowledge, were left unaltered by the Council of Trent.
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First of all, most Benedictine monasteries do celebrate the OF as intended by Sacrosanctum Concilium. That it is rare in parishes, does not make it rare everywhere.

However you’re wrong about most pre-Trent rites resembling the Latin rite. The chant for instance has been very different over the ages. Ambrosian Chant, Beneventan Chant, Mozarabic Chant, Gallican Chant, Roman Chant, Sarum Chant to name a few are very different from Gregorian chant. Moreover, Gregorian chant as we now use it in the Mass is a recent, late 19th century innovation, it was a restoration of an ancient tradition that had become very much corrupt since Trent; the Roman Gradual in Gregorian chant was first promulgated in 1908… hardly ancient. The chant sung in Paris in the 18th century for instance, would have had little resemblance to what we know as Gregorian Chant today.

Versus populum was also not unknown in religious orders both pre- and post-Trent.

Some rites had a different order of the Mass as well. The Mass of Paul VI while is at least as recognizable as a Catholic rite, maybe even more so, than many of the pre-Trent rites. Check out the order of the Ambrosian Rite for instance.

The EF Mass, like the OF Mass, is a Mass specific to an era, not timeless.
 
OraLabora said:
First of all, most Benedictine monasteries do celebrate the OF as intended by Sacrosanctum Concilium. That it is rare in parishes, does not make it rare everywhere.
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Does that mean that the Popes do not?
However you’re wrong about most pre-Trent rites resembling the Latin rite. The chant for instance has been very different over the ages. Ambrosian Chant, Beneventan Chant, Mozarabic Chant, Gallican Chant, Roman Chant, Sarum Chant to name a few are very different from Gregorian chant. Moreover, Gregorian chant as we now use it in the Mass is a recent, late 19th century innovation, it was a restoration of an ancient tradition that had become very much corrupt since Trent; the Roman Gradual in Gregorian chant was first promulgated in 1908… hardly ancient. The chant sung in Paris in the 18th century for instance, would have had little resemblance to what we know as Gregorian Chant today.
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I didn’t say that they all used Gregorian chant - I just said “chant”.
Versus populum was also not unknown in religious orders both pre- and post-Trent.
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Even so, it was not even remotely the norm.
The EF Mass, like the OF Mass, is a Mass specific to an era, not timeless.
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The Roman Rite was the dominate rite offered in the Latin Church at the time of Trent. It didn’t just come into existence at Trent. It was “tweaked”, but remained entirely recognizable to the pre-Tridentine Roman Rite. Can the same be said of the Mass of Bl. Paul VI in its relation to the Mass of St. Pius V? I would argue that the Traditional Latin Mass of the Roman Rite is timeless. The idea that it was “invented” at Trent is just not true. It existed in essentially the same structure in the 4th century or even earlier as it does in the 1962 Missal.
 
OraLabora said:
How on earth did you arrive at that conclusion from what I said?
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You said that many Benedictine monasteries offer the Novus Ordo Mass as intended by Sacrosanctum Concilium. Do these Masses typically externally resemble the Masses offered by the post-conciliar Popes?
And what of the great polyphonic Masses? Mozart, etc?
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They have their place in the Church’s patrimony of sacred music. Personally, I much prefer Mass sung in one of the traditional Gregorian settings.
 
R_H_Benson said:
You said that many Benedictine monasteries offer the Novus Ordo Mass as intended by Sacrosanctum Concilium. Do these Masses typically externally resemble the Masses offered by the post-conciliar Popes?
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I never suggested otherwise. I was comparing to parishes mostly.
They have their place in the Church’s patrimony of sacred music. Personally, I much prefer Mass sung in one of the traditional Gregorian settings.
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So do I. I sing in a Gregorian chant schola. We only do the Ordinary Form. Not because we are allergic to the EF; there is no licit EF in our medium-sized city.
 
OraLabora said:
I never suggested otherwise. I was comparing to parishes mostly.
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Reading the descriptions you often provide of the Novus Ordo Masses offered by the Benedictines, it seems that they always employ many traditional trappings. This isn’t always the case with Papal Masses. So how do we know who is authentically following Sacrosanctum Concilium? Isn’t the Pope, as the promulgator of the Roman Rite, the “standard-giver” so to speak of what the Novus Ordo is meant to look like when offered?
 
R_H_Benson said:
Reading the descriptions you often provide of the Novus Ordo Masses offered by the Benedictines, it seems that they always employ many traditional trappings. This isn’t always the case with Papal Masses. So how do we know who is authentically following Sacrosanctum Concilium? Isn’t the Pope, as the promulgator of the Roman Rite, the “standard-giver” so to speak of what the Novus Ordo is meant to look like when offered?
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SC is not the missal, it offers broad guidelines. There are many licit options in the missal that still fall within those broad guidelines. Just as, I’m sure you realize, there are options for the EF from a low Mass all the way to a solemn high Mass.
 
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