Celibacy as a requirement

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Obviously He does in most cases. The discipline is based in infallibility in that that discipline is not contrary to Christ’s will.

This is from the old CE:

I am saying that there is no basis to claim the Church is acting in error in this issue. You may not like it, but that does not make the discipline an error.
I never said the Church was acting in error. I just think it is a discipline that can be changed. The Church is a dynamic institution, not an organization with rules set in stone. I have always thought that voluntary celibacy has value but I don’t see the point of mandatory celibacy for priests.
 
I never said the Church was acting in error. I just think it is a discipline that can be changed. The Church is a dynamic institution, not an organization with rules set in stone. I have always thought that voluntary celibacy has value but I don’t see the point of mandatory celibacy for priests.
Obviously, it could be changed. I think the gift of celibacy will be valued in the same way marriage is valued. By that I mean when we start viewing marriage as we should I believe celibacy will se viewed as it should.

As the insitution of marriage is in such a terrible state today I see why so many think celibacy is a burden rather than a gift.
 
why are these standards imposed upon the clergy? Is it wrong for a man to be married? Someone please explain this to me in real words, not runaround goosechases.
I have not read this whole thread only the first few posts and I’m not sure if the topic is enven the same anymore so forgive my intrusion if this topic has been answered in this way.

Specops, I’m not sure if you realize this but men are not forced into celibacy by the church. A man who wishes to become a priest takes a vow before God that he will live a chaste life in service of his flock. He does this willingly because he wants to not because he has to. If he wants to marry then he will not become a priest it is all very simple and straight forward really. NO one forces anyone to take this vow and that is the bottom line.

To say that a man should not remain unmarried because he can not follow through with his vows of celibacy is to say that he should not have become a priest and needs to seriously consider leaving the preisthood. It is faulty logic to proclaim it is the fault of the discipline that drives men to break there vows when it is very clear that is the fallen nature of humans in general.

Peace, & God Bless!👍
 
As the insitution of marriage is in such a terrible state today I see why so many think celibacy is a burden rather than a gift.
I had to re-read that more than once, because it almost says what I actually THINK it should say…

As the insitution of marriage is in such a terrible state today I see why so many think celibacy is a gift rather than a burden.

Which is to say, however tough it is to be a priest, it is perhaps better for many to not deal with the difficulty of also being a husband.

Having said that I must offer full disclosure that I am a Byzantine Catholic who has been ministered to by married men not unlike these two priests - Fr Mikhail Shelemba and his son Father Vitalii Shelemba - who are carrying the relics of Holy New Martyr St. Theodore Romzha.

http://www.missionboronyavo.org/procession6.jpg
 
I had to re-read that more than once, because it almost says what I actually THINK it should say…

As the insitution of marriage is in such a terrible state today I see why so many think celibacy is a gift rather than a burden.

Which is to say, however tough it is to be a priest, it is perhaps better for many to not deal with the difficulty of also being a husband.
When I posted what I did I was thinking about this:
…Recent studies show that celibacy goes back much farther than the usually acknowledged canonical sources would indicate, back to the second century. In the East, too, it was much more widespread than we have been able to realize up until now. In the East it isn’t until the seventh century that there is a parting of the ways. Today as before, monasticism in the East is still the foundation that sustains the priesthood and the hierarchy. In that sense, celibacy also has a very major significance in the East…
The poorer an age is in faith, the more frequent the falls. This robs celibacy of its credibility and obscures the real point of it. People need to get straight in their minds that times of crisis for celibacy are always times of crisis for marriage as well. For, as a matter of fact, today we are experiencing not only violations of celibacy; marriage itself is becoming increasingly fragile as the basis of our society. In the legislation of Western nations we see how it is increasingly placed on the same level as other forms and is thereby largely “dissolved” as a legal form. Nor is the hard work needed really to live marriage negligible…
 
I have always thought that voluntary celibacy has value but I don’t see the point of mandatory celibacy for priests.
To paraphrase Pope John Paul II, the Church wishes to be loved that way, because Jesus, in whom priests stand as his living icons, loved her that way, too – that is, “totally and exclusively”.

Here are my own thoughts:

The Church doesn’t have to respond to Christ’s total self-donation by expecting her priests to be celibate. Rather, she *chooses *to. And since this choice is her response of love to Christ’s initiative of love, the Church’s decision has more of the character of “fittingness” than anything else.

When one considers the spousal relationship between Christ and the Church and the Christological iconography of the priest, the law of priestly celibacy *is *fitting. Sure, it’s not necessary, but it’s not necessary for Ms. Y to say “yes” to Mr. X’s proposal of marriage. When viewed through the exchange of total self-giving and receptivity – the *logos *of love – that which doesn’t look necessary reveals itself to be beautifully fitting.

This law is the decision of a Bride in love with her Spouse, who showed his love for her by dying on a Cross. As the latter can be a stumbling block for some, or foolishness for others, so too the former can seem ridiculous. Those who are wounded by love, however, see it as something truly fitting.
 
To paraphrase Pope John Paul II, the Church wishes to be loved that way, because Jesus, in whom priests stand as his living icons, loved her that way, too – that is, “totally and exclusively”.

Here are my own thoughts:

The Church doesn’t have to respond to Christ’s total self-donation by expecting her priests to be celibate. Rather, she *chooses *to. And since this choice is her response of love to Christ’s initiative of love, the Church’s decision has more of the character of “fittingness” than anything else.

When one considers the spousal relationship between Christ and the Church and the Christological iconography of the priest, the law of priestly celibacy *is *fitting. Sure, it’s not necessary, but it’s not necessary for Ms. Y to say “yes” to Mr. X’s proposal of marriage. When viewed through the exchange of total self-giving and receptivity – the *logos *of love – that which doesn’t look necessary reveals itself to be beautifully fitting.

This law is the decision of a Bride in love with her Spouse, who showed his love for her by dying on a Cross. As the latter can be a stumbling block for some, or foolishness for others, so too the former can seem ridiculous. Those who are wounded by love, however, see it as something truly fitting.
Wow !!! Are you suggesting that anyone with a vocation to the priesthood prefers celibacy to the possbility of marriage ? Those who see celibacy as you see it will still choose it, but I think the Church would benefit from the ordination of those who may not see it that way. Again…celibacy, yes, but not mandatory.
 
The way I see it is that Priests are already married, to the Church. Men marry woman and vice versa to get support from each other, Priests become Priests so that they can support the Church, and the Church in turn supports them. For a Priest to be married is almost polygamy, because he has more than one bride, and is devoted to not just the Church, but also to a human wife. Makes sense to me.
 
Wow !!! Are you suggesting that anyone with a vocation to the priesthood prefers celibacy to the possbility of marriage ?
I’d frame it differently:

The Church expects celibacy from those who have a vocation to the priesthood – and this expectation “expresses the Church’s will, even before the will of the subject expressed by his readiness”, as Pope John Paul II explained. In other words, the Church’s will that her priests be celibate is prior to a candidate’s decision for celibacy.
 
As I have posted elsewhere outside this forum…

When it comes to the issue of married priests, I am a radical moderate once again.

It is not panacea as Greek Catholics and Greek Orthodox can tell you - along with married priests come priests wives, priests kids, and a lot of distraction and room for more (though likely different) scandals.

In fact since the lifting of sactions AGAINST married priests in the Eastern Churches over 7 years ago, not more than 10 married men have come forward to recieve ordination. A total of one man to date has been ordained in the Byzantine Catholic Metropolia of Pittsburg for the Eparchy (Diocese) of Parma.

So here is my proposal:
  1. Retain celibacy in the Latin rite. PERHAPS consider allowing married priests to vest as deacons and still assist at Mass in a diaconal function. (Controversial I know, but it saddens me to think of all the men with the indellible mark of holy orders on their immortal souls leading an existence in the profane world. Could this act of reconcilation be a good first step?)
  2. Allow Eastern Catholic particular churches which function in western countries greater latitude in ordination of married men. (In fact the ban on married priests in US jurisdictions of the Eastern Catholic churches HAS been lifted, but pressure is on for a more case-by-case analysis of each candidate presenting himself for ordination.) Allow Latin Catholic married men willing to adopt the liturgy and life of the Eastern churches greater latitude in seeking ordination therein.
The Greek Catholic communities have a tradition of married priests that Rome attempted to suppress in the West. Sadly, even in Italy itself there are married clergy ministering to the Italo-Albanian Greek Catholics, the Italian bishops conference has asked the Ukrainians and other Greek Catholics NOT to allow married priests to minister to the faithful working there. IT makes no sense and is offensive especially to the Orthodox.

But in the end, I do not believe that celibacy is the issue. I believe 2 things need to happen for more celibate men to consider vocations:
  1. Bishops need to do more!
  2. Bishops need to do less!
On the first point, bishops need to seek vocation directors whose very priesthood is at the center of his spirituality - men whose very understanding of the nature of their lives as a sacrament lead them to joy in their lives as priests… When they are out visiting parishes and schools and meet young Catholic men they should do the following: Invite them to consider the priesthood.

I think that is what has happend here:

US dioceses with the highest ratio of seminarians to Catholics in 2004 were, in order:
  1. Lincoln, Nebraska
  2. Yakima, Washington
  3. Savannah, Georgia
  4. Cheyenne, Wyoming
  5. Rapid City, South Dakota
  6. Wichita, Kansas
  7. Tulsa, Oklahoma
  8. Alexandria, Louisiana
  9. Pensacola-Tallahassee, Florida
  10. Steubenville, Ohio
  11. Spokane, Washington
  12. Bismarck, North Dakota.
Arlington, VA did NOT make that list… but they do have a “Vocations crunch” too… They have 60 parishes… "Of those 60 parishes, only 42 are now staffed by diocesan priests. “We’ll ordain 22 men in the next 14 months,” Father Gould pointed out. “The real problem will be finding 22 beds for them.”

On the second point, bishops who do not wish to develop and foster diocesan vocations might do just as well to step aside and at least allow the orders and monsatic groups that are growing around the world to work in their own diocese. Rather than impede or deny this orders and institutions, if they would simply do LESS and not oppose them, well see what kind of vocations would arise.

Continued…
 
What do I mean? Well take the Legion of Christ, the Norbertines, FSSP, Institute of Christ the King, Miles Jesu, Heralds of the Gospel and the like… if bishops would simply ALLOW these folks to come in…

† The Fraternity of St. Peter is double-bunking seminarians in rooms designed for single senior seminarians

† In Rome Miles Jesu is sticking extra beds where they can for their new members

† In less time than the most orders have been around Bl. Theresa of Calcutta’s Missionaries of Charity have grown to over 4,500 nuns and is active in 133 countries. The numbers of the priests and brothers are ALSO growing.

† A lay association called the Heralds of the Gospel… "Comprised mainly of young people, this Association is established in 57 countries. Its members practice celibacy, and are entirely dedicated to apostolate, living in separate houses designated for young men and young women. " When JPII blessed their formation and gave his approval, over 1,000 YOUNG members gathered in Rome to celebrate.

Here is a list of orders that are growing and that celebrate the Tridentine Mass (a rite the most of the bishops in dying diocese would likely cross the street to avoid!):
  • Monks of the Most Blessed Virgin Mary of Mount Carmel
  • Canons Regular of the New Jerusalem
  • Canons Regular of the Mother of God
  • Religious Institute of the Holy Cross of Riaumont
  • Benedictines - Triors
  • Benedictines - St. Pierre de Clairac
  • Benedictines - Randol
  • Benedictines - Le Barroux
  • Benedictines - Gaussan
  • Benedictines - Fontgombault
  • Benedictines - Clear Creek
  • Institute of St. Philip Neri
  • Fraternity of St. Vincent Ferrer
  • Institute of Christ the King Sovereign Priest
  • Priestly Fraternity of St. Peter
  • Apostolic Adminstration of St. John Mary Vianney
Oh yea… all of them are GROWING. Certain of these groups have been given parishes that otherwise would have been closed… and are now building SCHOOLS. Invite any of those orders into your diocese, give them the most run down parish in the worst neighborhood and see what they do with it in three years.

† The Poor Clares of Perpetual Adoration have no more rooms and are recommending young women to other houses. Any bishop that invited these gals to take up residence in one of the many empty convents or rectories that dot the landscape would be lucky to have them.

† The Nashville Dominicans report they have more Sisters than ever in their 142-year history - median age is 36. Invite these gals to come teach in some of your schools or work in your diocese and see what character they would bring.

† Sisters of Mary, Mother of the Eucharist haven’t finished building their new motherhouse yet and are already almost out of room. Offer THEM a building and see what will happen.

† The Legion of Christ has suffered from scandal that has lead to the retirement of its founder. Time will tell what the effects of that scandal - and weather it is true or not…. But here is the thing about that conservative order so fiercely loyal to the Holy Father: “the Legion’s nine seminaries have turned out 650 ordained priests. That is up from 210 priests in 1990. The Legion’s ranks also include about 2,500 seminarians studying to be priests.

In the past thirty years there have been more than 1,000 converts to Catholocism from the ranks of Evangeical, Protestant, and Anglican clergy. Many of them have become priests and deacons. Bishops willing to work under the Pastoral Provision who let it be known they are willing to help some of these men become priests or work as deacons would reap a WINDFALL of orthodoxy. Many of them are very active in lay ministries and apostolates. More than a few of them have brought converts with them.

I guess my three point plan in simple:
  1. Allow sui juris Catholic Churches that have always ordained married men, to do just that…
  2. Look to diocese that DO attract healthy orthodox candidates to the priesthood and send your vocations director to theirs for a few weeks to take notes…
  3. Allow the growing orders and groups that CAN attract vocations to function freely in more places.
  4. CONTROVERSY WARNING possibly allow for the ordination of older married men who have served as deacons. We are approaching the point where we HAVE had married clergy in the Latin Church for over three decades. Perhaps, JUST PERHAPS, dispesnations could be granted for some of them to seek presbyteral ordination.
In the end I rally don’t think celibacy is the issue in vocation numbers (we can do well without the married) or vocation suitability (we can do well WITH the married). I think the call to holiness and the call to calling is.
 
So I guess I will stick to my guns on my radical moderate suggestion:

Retain/Restore/Relax:
  1. RETAIN western celibacy while really re-examing and looking at our married diaconate to really fully utilize the great gifts these men have to offer.
  2. RESTORE eastern married presbyterate where it has been impeded. (The idea that Latin Catholics would be scandalized in the US because there were a handfull of Ukranian or Maronite or Ruthenain Parishes with married priests… well The Latins have far more married clergy in the diaconate and former Anglicans than the Greek Catholics in America EVER did)
  3. RELAX impediments that prevent and preclude married Latins with an inclination from seeking ordination and service to the Eastern Catholic Churches. Right now the Orthodox look on the Eastern Catholic communities and see them as Romans in Greek Robes. One of the sources of scandal they have is not only is are the traditions of the of ancient communities percieved to be suppressed, but the interaction between Latins and Orthodox that have entered into full Union with Rome seem rather subdued and suppressed. Want to prove we mean business about healing the schism? Allow a greater flow and interaction between the east and west (without the dillution of either) and the message will be sent.
 
The Catholic Church pasted this celibacy requirement against its priest around 1100 AD due all the adultery perpetrated by Catholic priests and the Vatican could no longer keep up with the child support law suits. Check the historical record for yourself.

Abstaining from marriage was NEVER required by Christ and the Apostles. In fact, they commanded the exact opposite to “prevent perversions”. You should also know that the Catholic Church is NOT the final authority on ANYTHING. The instructions of Christ and the Apostles are final. Further, if you want to know God’s instruction on something, you should be READING WHAT THEY SAID for yourself. You have a Bible and it belongs to you so do your own research. But make sure it’s not the Catholic Bible which comes from the Vulgate and was extremely altered to suit their own agendas. Now here is what God really said …

1 Timothy 4:1-5
1Now the Spirit speaks expressly that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils…Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

4For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving…for it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

Hebrews 13:4
Marriage is honorable in ALL and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge.

Notice that God said marriage is HONORABLE FOR ALL and that includes priests, pastors and bishops, etc. He does not condemn ANYONE for being married. In future, please check to see what Christ and the Apostles said. Be also advised that the doctrines of the Catholic Church hardly EVER match what Christ and the Apostles said, so we need to be careful about what they teach … Purgatory and “limbus infantium” for instance … which are lies.

A good place to look up scripture is www.biblegateway.com/passage.
why are these standards imposed upon the clergy? Is it wrong for a man to be married? Someone please explain this to me in real words, not runaround goosechases.
 
The scriptures you quoted were given to allow men to make their OWN decisions. They were not given to FORCE celibacy upon anyone, which is exactly what the Catholic Church has done! For instance, the Catholic Church “forces” priests into celibacy, otherwise they cannot “serve the Lord”. To see how true this is ask yourself this… what if the priest refuses celibacy. Can he still be a Catholic priest? The answer is NO he cannot. And there you have a form of “force” which goes against the will of another person. Instead of hiding other scriptures that ENCOURAGE MARRIAGE… you should be offering your readers the full litany from which to choose, and not just your take on it. And here they are: See www.biblegateway.com/passage

1 Timothy 4:1-5:
Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils…speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron…Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth. For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving: For it (marriage and meats) are sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

Hebrews 13:4:
Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge.

What the Catholic Church says on this or any other matter is NOT final. What Christ and the Apostles said is.
 
The Catholic Church pasted this celibacy requirement against its priest around 1100 AD due all the adultery perpetrated by Catholic priests and the Vatican could no longer keep up with the child support law suits. Check the historical record for yourself.
I had to grimmace and giggle all at the same time a bit on this one.

I am just picturing priests being hauled to medieval family court in some Maury-esque scene by their “baby mammas”.

“Yo, your honor, may it please the court but this good for nothing gnave ain’t paing me my ducats.”

“Nothing doing, your worship, I have never seen this strumpet before ever. That baby doesn’t even look like me! Besides, everyone knows she goes with Friar Anselm!”

If the history is so obvious and easy to be found, save us the lazy and incredulous some time and effort and offer us some sources to back up your allegations of child support law suits against the clergy in midieval Europe.
 
The scriptures you quoted were given to allow men to make their OWN decisions. They were not given to FORCE celibacy upon anyone, which is exactly what the Catholic Church has done! For instance, the Catholic Church “forces” priests into celibacy, otherwise they cannot “serve the Lord”. To see how true this is ask yourself this… what if the priest refuses celibacy. Can he still be a Catholic priest? The answer is NO he cannot. And there you have a form of “force” which goes against the will of another person. Instead of hiding other scriptures that ENCOURAGE MARRIAGE… you should be offering your readers the full litany from which to choose, and not just your take on it. And here they are: See www.biblegateway.com/passage

1 Timothy 4:1-5:
Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils…speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron…Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth. For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving: For it (marriage and meats) are sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

Hebrews 13:4:
Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge.

What the Catholic Church says on this or any other matter is NOT final. What Christ and the Apostles said is.
Christ and the Church cannot be separated. If you hold an understanding contrary to the magisterium does that mean you are the authority?
 
Okay, and how many of these are homosexual? Notice also, that these “growing” memberships began just about the same time as the child molestation law suits became public. What’s going on here is very clear to see. Homosexuals have always been lonely and hungry for God (which is good). Once they found out they can be closer to God and in the company of their own kind (and I don’t mean that maliciously) they enlisted all over the place.
 
No, sorry I won’t. Not only did you fail to look up your own scripture (what was that about “lazy”?) but now you’re asking someone else to look up history. Tell you what “yo” … look it up yourself.
 
The Catholic Church pasted this celibacy requirement against its priest around 1100 AD due all the adultery perpetrated by Catholic priests and the Vatican could no longer keep up with the child support law suits. Check the historical record for yourself.
.

This is false. read the third and fourth cannons of the Council of Nicaea, 325 AD.
 
You are absolutely correct in saying that celibacy is a matter of PERSONAL CHOICE and no church or institution has the right to exclude anyone from pastoral service based on that, if they have been called into service by God - and the scriptures SAY SO !

Also very interesting is that whenever this topic comes up, we are always given the story of the eunich and Pauls’ preamble on abstinance. But he also said very clearly abstinace is NOT FOR EVERYONE. He also said FORCING this upon someone is a DOCTRINE OF DEMONS. See the following scriptures:

Hebrews 13:4

1st Timothy 4:1-5
 
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