Celibacy as a requirement

[jam070406]

I like mine medium rare - but it’s still steak.

 

[kerren1]

Yes ! ! I totally agree with you on that ! ! I’ve often wondered what got into them when they came over here on the Mayflower only to burn one another on American soil. Here might be an explanation … Have you ever noticed that a battered woman tends to always end up with one abusive man after another? They say this is because of “learned behavior” that became part of her psyche. So I think that those Protestants who tried to escape religious tyranny were probably still not free of it themselves. many times it takes several GENERATIONS to change behavioral patterns. For instance, African Americans had it pounded into them that they were animals and stupid and evil. Today they are productive citizens in the Senate and Congress, public services, doctors and lawyers. What do you think?

I would much rather have taken my chances in the Inquisistion in Spain rather than been in Northern (Protestant) Europe where they were also burning witches.

Any one care to look up the reputable stats on that one?

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Apples and oranges, sir. Yes it’s really great to receive confirmation of one’s calling and it SHOULD be that way. But what if that particular institutions makes requirements against one’s own will. The bottom line is … it’s not anyone’s business whether a “called servant” stays celibate or marries. In fact, the exact opposite is true. Take a look …

Not apples and oranges according to Catholic Teaching, semantically, or biblically.

Not so in Catholic Teaching because this is what the Catholic Church teaches and if you do like it then nuts to you.

Semantically because the actual understanding of the word “calling” is that it comes from outside of an individual.

Biblically because everyone in the Bible with a calling was actually Called by God and no where does it say that they had this private feeling that was never acknowledged by God and/or though the Community.

 

[kerren1]

Amen to that. It’s been a pleasure talking with you and thanks for having me.

 

[clmowry]

I know for a fact Old and New Testaments are the FINAL authority of God because of this …

Galatians 1:6-9:
I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel there be some that would pervert the gospel of Christ.

If any preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

I must have missed something where does this verse refer to either the Old or New Testaments. There doesn’t seem to be any mention of a book of any sort here.

You seem to be confusing the word “gospel” with a book.

Do you see the words “cursed” and “another Gospel” … Okay, now let’s a look at some of the things the Catholic Church has been teaching which are not found ANYWHERE in the Old or New Testaments:

Hmm I don’t see anyting in that verse about everything that Christ taught being included in sacred scripture. I do recall, however, a claim in the books of the New Testament that not all He had taught was captured in scripture."

1. Praying to statues of dead people
2. Limbus Infantium
3. Purgatory
4. Paying Indulgences
5. Beating and cutting oneself as a means to “holiness”
6. Burning people at the steak for disagreeing.

You seem to be a tad confused about Catholic teaching. With the exception of number 3, none of the above are Catholic doctrine. I’m sure if you were to start a thread on any of those subjects the actual teaching would come out quickly.

Yes sir, you can be Catholic all you like, but you cannot add on or take away from the TRUE words of Christ and the Apostles. Christ is the Son of God … no other.

I can’t really disagree with anything here though I would subsitute “teaching” for “words”. You are correct, unlike most protestant churches the Catholic Church has no authority to take away from or add to what was taught by Christ and the Apostles.

Though sometimes it needs to make judgements on issues that are not explicitly covered by Scripture or Apostolic Tradition. (Artificial Birth Control for example.) Though decison in areas of Faith and Morals such as these can be pronounced “infallibly” by the Church with the guidance of the Holy Spirit, it would not be correct, I think, to presume that they are the direct teachings of Christ and the Apostles. Though I believe it is what they “would” teach on the subject.

Chuck

 

[FCEGM]

Yes ! ! I totally agree with you on that ! ! I’ve often wondered what got into them when they came over here on the Mayflower only to burn one another on American soil. Here might be an explanation … Have you ever noticed that a battered woman tends to always end up with one abusive man after another? They say this is because of “learned behavior” that became part of her psyche. So I think that those Protestants who tried to escape religious tyranny were probably still not free of it themselves. many times it takes several GENERATIONS to change behavioral patterns. For instance, African Americans had it pounded into them that they were animals and stupid and evil. Today they are productive citizens in the Senate and Congress, public services, doctors and lawyers. What do you think?

I think you might like to take that lesson to heart in considering how you were taught to believe evil of Catholicism.

 

[kerren1]

Yes yes yes … nuts to me. I am, after all, Christian and not Catholic. So again, here’s the bottom line is … Celibacy CANNOT be forced upon anyone and we agree on that. And a calling should be verified by the church and we agree on that too. But a church or institution IS FORBIDDEN to make requirements that FORCE people into doing things they don’t want to. See now what I mean by apples and oranges? Verification is way different than ILLEGAL REQUIREMENTS … especially in view of the preponderance of available “Bible” scripture that ENCOURAGES them to marry. Well, sorry if I’m tiring you out, I’ll let you go now. The words of Christ and the Apostles are final and cannot be argued with. bye.

Not apples and oranges according to Catholic Teaching, semantically, or biblically.

Not so in Catholic Teaching because this is what the Catholic Church teaches and if you do like it then nuts to you.

Semantically because the actual understanding of the word “calling” is that it comes from outside of an individual.

Biblically because everyone in the Bible with a calling was actually Called by God and no where does it say that this had this private feeling that was never acknowledged by God or though the Community.

 

[kerren1]

Hello, how are? When I look at the history of the Catholic Church, it turns out she has done this all to herself. I had nothing to do with it.

I think you might like to take that lesson to heart in considering how you were taught to believe evil of Catholicism.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Yes yes yes … nuts to me. I am, after all, Christian and not Catholic.

We are all Christians, yes, even us Catholics.

So again, here’s the bottom line is … Celibacy CANNOT be forced upon anyone and we agree on that.

And it is not forced on anyone.

And a calling should be verified by the church and we agree on that too.

True.

But a church or institution IS FORBIDDEN to make requirements that FORCE people into doing things they don’t want to.

Show me where some one is forced into this. It doesn’t happen.

It is a requirement of part of the Church, the Latin Catholic Church.

To use your thought process here then you must really have issues with the Federal Government. After all they force Lawyers and Medical Doctors to be licensed.

And the Protestant Churches force their ministers to complete advanced degrees at their seminaries and to adhere to a bunch of rules for their denomination before they will allow them to serve.

See now what I mean by apples and oranges?

Still not using it correctly.

Verification is way different than ILLEGAL REQUIREMENTS … especially in view of the preponderance of available “Bible” scripture that ENCOURAGES them to marry.

Well the Bible does not require any educational requirements either so all the protestant churches out there also have illegal requirements.

And the Bible only encourages those who are weak to marry.

Well, sorry if I’m tiring you out, I’ll let you go now. The words of Christ and the Apostles are final and cannot be argued with. bye.

Hmmm, I do not recall anyone saying that you were tiring them out.

What I am growing tired of is your attempt to hold the Catholic Church to some arbitrary standards that you do not hold your own protestant churches to. Now that is apples and oranges.

I would also add that if we were having this conversation face to face it would not have lasted this long. For you see when you type in all capitals LIKE THIS, it is the verbal equivalent of yelling and I am sorry but when someone yells CERTAIN WORDS while the rest of what their saying is at a normal volume, they just seem unstable.

 

[kerren1]

Yes I agree ! There are “absolutes” which all Christians and Catholics must speak against. However, notice that God has already covered ALL topics without any help from ANY of us. And it’s all right there in the Ten Commandments - from which spring all rights and wrongs. Although words like cloning and abortion are not in the NT or OT, they are precisely covered by the Creator in the Ten Commandments. For instance … Abortion - you shall not kill. Cloning - you shall not commit idolatry (the lust behind cloning is the need to be “like a god and live forever”. See what I mean? So it turns out that God is smarter than any church, Catholic or Protestant. And He clears things up all by Himself.
About all those other practices, no sir, I know that Catholics practiced those things and many still do. Sorry.

 

[fix]

Apples and oranges, sir. Yes it’s really great to receive confirmation of one’s calling and it SHOULD be that way. But what if that particular institutions makes requirements against one’s own will. The bottom line is … it’s not anyone’s business whether a “called servant” stays celibate or marries. In fact, the exact opposite is true. Take a look …

One’s conscience is not superior to God. God does not call one in a way that contradicts His Church. This is the problem right here…authority. You are claiming your interpretation of Scripture is the authoritative one. That conflicts with the Church. As I said the Church and Christ cannot be separated. One of you is wrong. Why are you the authority?

The other thing is, we have all been created with an “ear to hear” the Creator call us. We’re not children or nursing babies. We can hear Him speak on our own and don’t need a bishop to “give us permission” to fellowship with God. Take a look …

So, if your understanding conflicts with my understanding how do we know who has it right?

 

[clmowry]

So what would God’s clear teaching on ABC be and why can’t everyone understand it?

Chuck

Yes I agree ! There are “absolutes” which all Christians and Catholics must speak against. However, notice that God has already covered ALL topics without any help from ANY of us. And it’s all right there in the Ten Commandments - from which spring all rights and wrongs. Although words like cloning and abortion are not in the NT or OT, they are precisely covered by the Creator in the Ten Commandments. For instance … Abortion - you shall not kill. Cloning - you shall not commit idolatry (the lust behind cloning is the need to be “like a god and live forever”. See what I mean? So it turns out that God is smarter than any church, Catholic or Protestant. And He clears things up all by Himself.
About all those other practices, no sir, I know that Catholics practiced those things and many still do. Sorry.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

So what would God’s clear teaching on ABC be and why can’t everyone understand it?

Chuck

And abortion and homosexual behavior and hundreds of other things.

 

[wency]

Sir,

if you will look at that law as just a commandment you can keep your argument but if you will be able to see it as a commandment of Love then you’ll have a different one.

analogy:

since murder is against to every law written on earth yet many people still kill and get killed (plus the threat of terrorism). are we called to change that law so that no one will ever violate it? does really the law that makes the things bad in this world? i don’t think so…

finally:

don’t look at the faults and/or the shortcomings of others and make it a standard coz what if God will look at us that way will anyone be saved? i don’t think so… but God look at us in Love and in Love all our mistakes and sins disappear but what remains is our good works and Love for God and our fellow… i believe that you follow God with all your heart so you are also called to be like Him in every way humanly possible including on how you see others…

May God bless you always…

 

[wency]

also sir,

please read “Deus Caritas Est” an encyclical of Pope Benedict XVI there you will understand how do we look at that issue…

thanks…

wency

 

[FCEGM]

Hello, how are? When I look at the history of the Catholic Church, it turns out she has done this all to herself. I had nothing to do with it.

But you do have everything to do with your personal ignorance about all you think that the Church has done and what it teaches and why. I hope your participation here will help you know better the actuality rather than the accusations.

I’m fine, btw.

 

[Jerry_Heil]

To those of you citing statistics-beware!! As a trained Social Scientist, I cringe at how easily incorrect and misleading statistics work their way into published sources and then into popular belief. I’m not acquainted with any of the sources mentioned, but my past study, reading and experience leads me to be sceptical of statisitics since so often I’ve found them based upon sloppy or simply incorrect methodologies, and being used for political or interest group advocacy. Statistices I recall from nationally recognized and respected polls estimated that 20% of Catholic clergy broke their vows of chastity while about 33% of Protestants clergy committed adultry. Another study found the rates of homosexuality about the same among Catholic, Protestant and Jewish clergy. I wish I had the actual citations, but I do not. These numbers, if true, are sad commentary on the human condition. But clearly, celibacy is not the problem. Let us not forget the example of King David, his great sin and his seeking of forgiveness. In the end, we are all weak human beings in need of the Saviour. God bless!!

 

[governorperez]

dear friends,
a celibate pastor . excellent.

 

[cmarymagdalene]

I have been interested in this subject for many years.

First: I acede to the way things now are due to the magesterium.

Second: The Pope was given good cause by sinful clergy long ago to make this rule. P.Gregory loved his own monasticism.

Third: It supposedly discourages those who can’t live without sex from entering the clergy. One CAN live without sex, you know!

Fourth: The Church DOES ordain married Priests-especially converts from Protestantism who are married and even have families.

Fifth: There are supposedly over 200 legitimate Catholic Rites in communion with the Pope-we just don’t hear much about them in our saturated Latin Roman Rite majority. Not all follow our rules. “Mar-Thomas” Catholic Priests in India can marry.

Sixth: There IS actually scripural instruction to stay celibate, from Jesus in Matthew (though if any Priests are physically made into Eunichs I haven’t heard-but back then there really were Eunichs, so who is to say that never happened?), AND there
IS scriptural instruction for Deacons and Bishops (Check your Lexicons on the language!) to be good married men with children in 2Timothy Chapter 3 and in Chapter 4 of 2Timothy it says that in the last days marriage will be forbidden. Keeping that in mind Aaron and all Old Testament Priests were married. The first Pope, Peter had a wife: see 1Corinthians 9:5. However John, who was the youngest was never mentioned in scripture as having a wife. But he was called to be a disciple when he was young-which theories state that was probably whyhe was “the one whom Jesus loved”, and who was chosed by Christ from the cross to care for Mary the Mother of our Lord, which history states that he did-possibly not only in Ephesus; plus he wrote the book of Revelation. The Disciple John was a pretty busy guy who probably wouldn’t have had a lot of time to devote to a wife and family given his multiple mission assignments-kind of like our busy Priests today.

Seventh: We still have married Deacons, like in the scripture. An office that has become re-invograted in the past decade, and is taken very seriusly. They, too, are very busy-in fact one local Deacon’s wife left him…evidence that being a busy Deacon both allows for neglected wives AND doesn’t keep one immune from domestic problems just because he is a servant of God’s Church.

Eighth: Per a (now deceased) celibate retreat center Priest: If a Roman Catholic Priest falls in love with a woman and is honest, he can always leave the Church by becoming “laicized” and per a Bishop I was able to ask this question of-he CAN have a valid marriage after that.

Ninth: If any Priest knows he can’t handle his celibacy for any amoral, sinful, or deviant reason he should bow out of his active employment in his Profession. But, he should always honor God, as we all should, and still try to avoid sin, as we all should, and should remain celibate if unmarried, as we all should, right? Right.

Tenth: I am still trying to learn about this one: there was also something about city/Dioscesan Priests needing to be celibate bacause of offering Mass on a daily basis, but country Priests who were only able to offer Mass on a weekly basis were able to marry and practice their marital sacrament without refraining from either the Mass or their marriage because they could stay “continent” (Paul recommended to all Christians to ‘…remain as you were when you were first saved’)…for a specific period of time (‘Husbands and wives may separate for a time to dedicate themselves to Prayer and fasting…’-that’s scriptural)-we still observe a fast.

So, finally, in my personal estimation it’s really ok after all for Priests to observe celibacy as a way of life, because it really is supposed to be a way off life for all Christians, unless they are married. Part of our current problem with celibacy is that the world has become so corrupt that it makes wrong look right, and right look wrong. I’ve been over 10 years celibate myself, and I have a clear conscience and can love in an unsexualized way. I feel free and I am healthy. I know that the HIV virus is smaller than normal holes that pass inspection in all latex condoms, and that NFP for married couples is actually more effective than being on “the Pill”. I know that there is no such thin s safe sex, and that the scripture clearly states that fornicators and adulterers along with liars and drunkards will not inherit the Kingdom of Heaven. Priests living in unsanctified sexual relationships are going to be judged by God. Scripture applies to Priests and Deacons, just as it applies to the rest of the whole human race.
If a man is called to be a Priest and can accept it (Matthew) then he should go for it. More power to him! But if he is called to something else, we should not judge him, even if he leaves the Priesthood for it. Scripture says, “Judge not, lest ye be judged.”
A-men.

 

[cmarymagdalene]

I have been interested in this subject for many years.

First: I acede to the way things now are due to the magesterium.

Second: The Pope was given good cause by sinful clergy long ago to make this rule. P.Gregory loved his own monasticism.

Third: It supposedly discourages those who can’t live without sex from entering the clergy. One CAN live without sex, you know!

Fourth: The Church DOES ordain married Priests-especially converts from Protestantism who are married and even have families.

Fifth: There are supposedly over 200 legitimate Catholic Rites in communion with the Pope-we just don’t hear much about them in our saturated Latin Roman Rite majority. Not all follow our rules. “Mar Thomas” Catholic Priests in India can marry, but their high clergy can’t. Orthodox and in my personal estimation of the disciples-marriage can occur BEFORE ORDINATION (before they were called, but not after (John), unless Laicized. (Paul: “It is better to marry than to burn with passion. Therefore, he who marries does not sin.”) May God bless and protect them all!

Sixth: There IS actually scripural instruction to stay celibate, from Jesus in Matthew (though if any Priests are physically made into Eunichs I haven’t heard-but back then there really were Eunichs, so who is to say that never happened?), AND there
IS scriptural instruction for Deacons and Bishops (Check your Lexicons!) to be good married men with children in 2Timothy Chapter 3. Chapter 4 of 2Timothy says in the last days marriage will be forbidden. Aaron and all Old Testament Priests were married. Peter had a wife: 1Corinthians 9:5. However John, who was the youngest was never mentioned in scripture as having a wife-he may have been called before marriage as a young disciple, and who was chosen by Christ to care for Mother Mary, which history states that he did-possibly not only in Ephesus; he also wrote Revelation while in exile on Patmos. John was a pretty busy guy who wouldn’t have had time to devote to a wife and family given his multiple mission assignments-kind of like our busy Priests today.