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Ham1
Guest
If sex is good and holy and beatiful, then why would giving it up be such a wonderful thing. Would you give up going to daily mass for the same reasons?
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byzmelkite
Guest
Read St. Paul and the fathers of the Church. Celibacy is superior to marriage. That is the tradition of the Church. In the early Church, sex would never be described as “beautiful” but as permissible if done in accordance with its natural purpose, procreation. The early Church fathers also did not see sex as the central focus of marriage. The fathers such as St. Clement of Alexandria and St. John Chrysostom extol the beauty of marriage as a little society and icon of the Church. However, they have very little to say about sex in marriage and what they do say is this:
1.) Sex should be done for procreation.
2.) Sex should be done in moderation and in a civilized manner.
St. Clement of Alexandria gives very explicit instructions to couples in his “Stromaitas” that they should not indulge in intercourse like the heathens do but should do so quietly and discreetly and in a rational manner contemplating the divine purpose of their union.
In St. Augustine’s “City of God” he suggests that prior to the Fall, Adam would have experienced no spontaneous lust at the site of Eve. Physical intercourse would be done with no lust, but only rational desire, Adam commanding through reason his member to perform its function in order for procreation to take place.
All of this is the general view of the Church up until Vatican II. Humanae Vitae actually introduced something novel when it elevated the “unitive” purpose of sex to a status essentially equal to the procreative purpose.
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byzmelkite
Guest
Ironically enough, even Epicurus (who sees pleasure is the true end of human action) thinks that sex is more trouble than its worth. He sees the anguish and pain that stems from the complicated relationship as outweighing any pleasure to be had in the sexual act, which is why he generally advises against sexual intercourse. And this coming from a hedonist!
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Ham1
Guest
I think it’s fair to say that remarks similar to the ones you have quoted from Church fathers are largely helpful in forming the protestant views of sex and the body. None of these statements change the fact that marriage and sex are good and exist by God’s natural design. Also, the Church has always taught that the celibate life is a higher calling than married life. Celibate people are called to forsake the natural for the supernatural. However, that does not mean that married people ought to practice celibacy. They ought to live their vocation which for married people involves conjugal relations.
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byzmelkite
Guest
Actually, protestants are the ones largely responsible for pushing the idea that sex is for pleasure and that married people should have as much sex as possible. Read through Church history, even through the writings of the Popes up to Pius XII and you will see that sex within marriage is permissible but it must be treated with great care and that even within marriage, it is very difficult to have sexual relations that are not at least venially sinful.
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YinYangMom
Guest
Out of respect for the awesomeness of Him.
Over in another thread there was a poster who recently converted from Judaism to Catholicism and he continued the practice of not typing His name.
It’s something I became aware of years ago from some jewish friends of mind and I’ve always found that sign of respect to be most admirable.
Just as I would not use G-d’s name outside the purpose of prayer, I don’t see the need to print His name out in general discussion.
Sometimes I slip and use the ‘o’ but making the conscious effort to replace it with a ‘-’ presents just enough of a pause for me to reconsider if what I’m about to attach to that word would be worthy of His association.
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YinYangMom
Guest
A celibate marriage can be a great witness to the world** if** it is decided upon toghether and for the express reason to increase the couple’s spiritual relationship with Christ.
This particular situation is the husband seeking to decide - without his wife’s (name removed by moderator)ut - to withhold himself from her solely out of the fear that they may end up pregnant again. In this situation I don’t think it would be considered celibacy as much as it would be refusal.
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Ham1
Guest
This is crazy talk. Sex within marriage is not nearly always sinful. Just because different thinkers wrote such sentiments does not mean that it is necessarily true.
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byzmelkite
Guest
Of course, God is not God’s name. God is a generic term for the divine Being. God’s proper name is that which was revealed to Moses at the burning Bush.
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byzmelkite
Guest
I agree with you. I already posted that this person should not do anything unless it is mutual.
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byzmelkite
Guest
If you can engage in it with a pure mind and without excessive desire then more power to you
. Almost everything we do is on the border of being venially sinful because of concupiscience. I don’t think a day goes by where I haven’t committed at least 1000 venial sins.
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Viki59
Guest
lost sheep:
My mother-in-law had 18 children, and my husband never had shoes til he was in his teens. He left school after first grade to work in the fields. Of course you’d never raise your children this way, but it is all relative.
We tend to be too materialistic in western society. Children are a greater blessing than all the essentials we think we need.
Even if you did have another child on NFP, God would provide for your family.
I never made any plans, so when things turn topsy-turvey it doesn’t surprise me.
My mother-in-law had 18 children, and my husband never had shoes til he was in his teens. He left school after first grade to work in the fields. Of course you’d never raise your children this way, but it is all relative.
We tend to be too materialistic in western society. Children are a greater blessing than all the essentials we think we need.
Even if you did have another child on NFP, God would provide for your family.
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cynic
Guest
what a heart warming view of it. Something robotic, rational, impersonal. Everything else is ‘lust’. From this stems the idea that you shouldn’t even like your spouse, love them only as much as you love anyone on the street ie. have goodwill towards them, a sepcific duty to them, but no personal affection or connection. Your togethor only for a goal.
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cynic
Guest
er, where does it say this in Genesis?
Didn’t God create Eve because Adam was lonely?
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byzmelkite
Guest
Such is the typical reaction from my undergraduate students who are so attached to their appetites and emotions that they find it impossible that anyone should live a life calmly and rationally. Much of our desire for romance, sex , and the like is artificially inflated by Romanticism and the sex filled media. If you look at the consensus of early Christian teaching, the state of having overwhelming erotic passions and desires was seen as a result of the Fall.
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byzmelkite
Guest
Actually Genesis never says Adam was lonely. Genesis never speculates about Adam’s condition at all. Genesis says that God said it was not good for man to be alone; meaning that to be authentically human, we must be social beings in the image of the Trinity. There were various views among the Fathers, but a good number of them held:
1.) The command to procreate was given in light of the Fall, and that had man not fallen, there would be no need for sexual reproduction.
2.) The excess of passion and emotion we experience in life is a result of concupiscience and that prior to the Fall there would have been no spontaneous (non-willed) emotions or desires.
In addition to this, many taught that our bodies, prior to the Fall, were of a spiritual substance and that God’s clothing man with “garments of skins” after the Fall was His giving man a physical body subject to decay and disordered passions.
Also, some Fathers, such as St. Maximos the Confessor held that we were originally intended to be hermaphrodites and that God took Eve (the feminine side of man) from Adam’s side in order to separate the sexes and create relational beings.
It is sad how irrational and anti-rational our current culture is and how this has affected Christian spirituality. God made us to be rational creatures, governing and directing all of our appetites according to reason.
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John_of_Woking
Guest
Just use NFP if it is 99 per cent effective leave the one per cent open to God’s will. Thats what I am doing I am on a meaghre wage,
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Ham1
Guest
So do you disagree with theologians who view sex as a wonderful, awe-inspiring gift from God?
I contend that you can live life rationally and passionately. Passions can be good things so long as they are directed by the will to good ends. The strong human desire to love and be loved is particularly good when directed toward God.
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LCMS_No_More
Guest
Sounds like something Martin Luther would say.
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byzmelkite
Guest
Martin Luther wasn’t all wrong. Augustine would say that as would many other Fathers.
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