Celibacy in marraige

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byzmelkite:
I don’t find Janet Smith to be very impressive to be honest with you. Pope John Paul II was a great thinker and a great Pope. However, I am just pointing out that the current glorification of married sex by these theologians is a departure from patristic and medieval thought. That being the case, we should see how to square it with the tradition.
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I don’t see it as a departure. When a child grows from eating with her fingers to using utensils and good manners, is this a departure or growth?

The Church is ever growing in deeper understandings without contradicting earlier teachings.

You can eat with your fingers and settle for natural sex, I’m going for holy sex!😉
 
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Inkman:
Hi lost sheep, I too struggle with this. My wife, a non Catholic has no problems with the use of artificial contreceptives. When we first married she was very reluctant to have children right away and it took her a long time to finally say yes to a child. We now a beautiful 15 month old son. We have been abstaining now for about a year and a half and will continue to so until my wife is either open to another child ar willing to give N.F.P a try.
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Hi Inkman,
Thanks for the reply. My question to you is…I don’t know how to put this in writing…but, do you and your wife still have a strong relationship even though the intamacy (sex) is gone? We have been abstaining for probably 6 to 7 months and sometimes I feel like our relationship is lacking something. We are still very much happy and we actually talk more and pray together more. It is pretty cool how our spiritual relationship has grown stronger. If that makes sense. But sometimes the disires are overwhelming, do you feel that way too?

We are abstaining more because of her than me but I support her and I do have the same feelings as she does, so it is really a mutual disicsion(somehow this post turned into me holding out on my wife, which is not the case) I am the one struggling more with this.

I am really interested in how the rest of your relationship has picked up the slack so to speak…what do I have to look forward to, or do you think it is bad.
Thanks
 
Hi Lost Sheep,

It is not easy but has become less difficult for me in the last few months. At first I found myself in a real spin, I love my wife very very much but I cannot blatantly go against the Church’s teaching either. I am fully aware of what the Church teaches on this matter and the consequences of disobeying these will result in a mortal sin. If you believe what the Holy Church teaches about mortal sin…well you get the drift!

My wife is a very attractive woman and when I first met her I was very physically attracted, and still am, but not on the same level that we were years ago. I found that after the first few years I distanced myself from my wife, I mean I still loved her but we started to do a little less together as the sparks seemed to slow. But things seem to be changing, especially for me. I am finding things to love about my wife that I didn’t have before, I really and truly believe that the abstinence has made me much much closer to me wife, and I now have a different and better kind of love and respect for my wife.

My wife is the one who I think is really struggling with this, quite a bit more than she lets on I believe. I don’t think that it is the lack of sex that she struggles but the bonding that takes place during the marital act. As I said before she is not a Catholic and does not fully understand the Churches teachings, she is fully aware of them but just doesn’t agree with all of them. I on the other hand have found a much greater peace in my life when I try my hardest to obey everything that the Church teaches. I am also very blessed to have perpetual Adoration close to my work and a Church four houses over that allows me to attend a lot of Mass, especially if things are tough; Christ’s yoke certainly lightens the weight of burden.

My wife has now agreed to look into N.F.P with me (Creighton model sp?) which Catholic doctors say when followed properly is at the very least as effective as the (culture of death*)* pill. I am really hoping that she soon becomes open to another child but until then this, I believe is the best option I have.

God bless
 
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Inkman:
Hi Lost Sheep,

It is not easy but has become less difficult for me in the last few months. At first I found myself in a real spin, I love my wife very very much but I cannot blatantly go against the Church’s teaching either. I am fully aware of what the Church teaches on this matter and the consequences of disobeying these will result in a mortal sin. If you believe what the Holy Church teaches about mortal sin…well you get the drift!

My wife is a very attractive woman and when I first met her I was very physically attracted, and still am, but not on the same level that we were years ago. I found that after the first few years I distanced myself from my wife, I mean I still loved her but we started to do a little less together as the sparks seemed to slow. But things seem to be changing, especially for me. I am finding things to love about my wife that I didn’t have before, I really and truly believe that the abstinence has made me much much closer to me wife, and I now have a different and better kind of love and respect for my wife.

My wife is the one who I think is really struggling with this, quite a bit more than she lets on I believe. I don’t think that it is the lack of sex that she struggles but the bonding that takes place during the marital act. As I said before she is not a Catholic and does not fully understand the Churches teachings, she is fully aware of them but just doesn’t agree with all of them. I on the other hand have found a much greater peace in my life when I try my hardest to obey everything that the Church teaches. I am also very blessed to have perpetual Adoration close to my work and a Church four houses over that allows me to attend a lot of Mass, especially if things are tough; Christ’s yoke certainly lightens the weight of burden.

My wife has now agreed to look into N.F.P with me (Creighton model sp?) which Catholic doctors say when followed properly is at the very least as effective as the (culture of death*)* pill. I am really hoping that she soon becomes open to another child but until then this, I believe is the best option I have.

God bless
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This is a fabulous testimony to fidelity and endurance in living the truth of the Gospel, despite personal sacrifice and hardship. Every “Catholic-lite”/“menu-Catholic” laity and dissenting religious ought to read this and feel shame for the lie that they have chosen to live and disseminate.
Hebrews**, *Chapter 10:36 *******“****You need endurance to do the will of God and receive what he has promised.” (NAB)

Revelation**, *Chapter 2:2 *******“****I know your works, your labor, and your endurance, and that you cannot tolerate the wicked; you have tested those who call themselves apostles but are not, and discovered that they are impostors.” (NAB)
Revelation**, *Chapter 14:12 ***“Here is a call for the endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.” (RSV)
 
Wow, Inkman! Fantastic testimony.

Lost Sheep,

Read the thread on “when is NFP morally permissible”. Either in this section or in the Family Life section, I forgot.

I commend you on your abstinence and your desire to do the will of God. However, not having the desire for more kids while having sex is NOT sinful. That mutual attraction is really the desire to give yourself, and receive your spouse as a gift. Children and a stronger marriage bond are the natural fruits. Just because you don’t desire children doesn’t mean you are sinning.

That’s what’s been really getting my dander up about these threads that suggest NFP can be used “with a contraceptive mentality”.

Bologna! NFP has been given to us precisely for couples in your situation.

That 1% risk may seem too much. But that embrace may also seem well worth it. Think of what that embrace will mean to you and your spouse. “I really fear that small chance of pregnancy, but I give you all of myself, including my fears. My desire for you outweighs my fears.”

Practice NFP. Don not worry about whether you should not be doing it during the infertile phases. Instead concern yourself with whether you should ALSO be embracing during the fertile phases. Take that part to prayer.
 
Byzmelkite,

So is it sinful to enjoy the taste of food? Are you better off feeding yourself foods you do not like to avoid the sin of gluttony?

I find your way of thinking very strange. We didn’t make our sexual drive, Satan didn’t make our sexual drive either - God did. God made orgasms pleasureable too. Therefore the pleasure is good. It just must be properly ordered.

God put us on this earth to LIVE. Engaging in sex but refusing to enjoy it strikes me as something akin to suicide.

What you seem to advocate sounds like Gnosticism or Buddism more than Catholicism.

The thing that makes Church Fathers like St. Augustine is that they were able to express theological concepts that all the Bishops and Pope understood but could put eloquently. What these Church Fathers were expressing was not simply their own thinking, but what the rest of the Church was thinking also. But, and this is a big but, not everything these theologians said and wrote was accepted by the Church as a whole. It is possible that St. Augustine was wrong about some of what he said and wrote.

Your comments about the Papal writings carry more weight. I would like some specific references. Again, because a Pope does not always speak with definitive authority. You have to understand the context of the document.

For example, Pope JPII told the U.S. that war is not the answer. That was not a definitive statement carrying the authority of infallibility. The biggest key to knowing that this is not something we must understand as official Church Doctrine is the fact that it was addressed to a single nation. Infallible teachings are addressed to the entire body of faithful.
 
I believe this could be a form of “Josephite Marriage”.

I don’t see anything wrong with it. In fact, you’ll be denying yourself to accomplish this goal. Been doing it myself for 9 years now.

May God bless you and your family.
 
I don’t agree with this mindset.

This is not the way married people were meant to live.

Not having sex because you don’t want more children just seems so un-Catholic to me.

What about the unitive aspect of sex?
Does that not matter to the marriage?
 
So? Me and my wife have been married for 12 years and we’ve never wanted children, much less had sex. Is that the one and only purpose of marriage? Just to make child ren? I thought marriage was just so that a male and a female could share their nonsexual love with each other.
 
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777:
Did you stop to think that with no children in a marriage means saved money in collage bills, school expenses, peadiatric bills, toys and other stuff (e.g., children’s clothing and furniture and toys). Plenty of tax money, uitility money, food money, clothing money and so forth twixt you and your spouse.
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Money, money, money… No children also means no child that looks up to you. No little girl/boy (s) to welcome you from work, no mini hugs, no watching your child(ren) grow up, no bringing another life into the world. No call of 'Daddy/Mommy, can you come here?" No grandchildren at all.

Is it worth it? Is some extra cash worthy losing ^ that?

I don’t think it is.
 
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777:
So? Me and my wife have been married for 12 years and we’ve never wanted children, much less had sex. Is that the one and only purpose of marriage? Just to make child ren? I thought marriage was just so that a male and a female could share their nonsexual love with each other.
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Marriage is so that a man and a woman can share their sexual love with each other, have children, help their spouse get to heaven etc.

And if you have never consumated your marriage, it isn’t valid.
 
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Pro-Life_Teen:
Marriage is so that a man and a woman can share their sexual love with each other, have children, help their spouse get to heaven etc.

And if you have never consumated your marriage, it isn’t valid.
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WHAT!!!

Does this mean that Joseph and Mary didn’t have a valid marrage, since they didn’t have sex?
 
Celibacy in marriage is acceptable ONLY under the following conditions:
  1. It is ‘chosen’ by both parties as a way to glorify God.
  2. Husband and wife must choose this path for their unitive (since the two became one) spiritual growth.
It is NOT acceptable to ‘choose’ celibacy only because you don’t want any children.

Celibacy is a dedication of your life on earth to Christ Himself.
But when you chose to marry, you dedicated your life to your spouse, so celibacy in marriage should be a very rare thing.

Now it’s possible that as the marriage grows each member of the marriage may feel a call to serve the Lord more devotely, and seeks to give up sex for this devotion…which would mean offering up sexual desire for one’s spouse for some spiritual goal.

It’s interesting to read here that the couples who have chosen celibacy in order to avoid pregnancy are indeed sincere, devout Catholics. That they chose this path out of respect for Church teaching. That is most admirable, but a bit off the mark.

A married Catholic who respects Church teaching would understand the teaching on the sacrament of marriage itself - why one chooses it, what the covenant calls for, and how best to fulfill one’s obligation. Under that covenant is the call for unitive and procreative sex in order to keep the marriage alive as an example of the Trinity.

When we marry in the Church, it is a covenant between man, woman and God - to emulate the Trinity. To choose celibacy in marriage only to avoid children shuts God out of the union, and that is so against Church teaching.

Something’s amiss.
 
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johnpaullover:
WHAT!!!

Does this mean that Joseph and Mary didn’t have a valid marrage, since they didn’t have sex?
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Valid Marriages as defined by the Catholic Church obviously didn’t exist back then so it makes no sense to rule on Joseph/Mary’s validity by today’s standards.

Certainly their marriage was valid under Jewish law - which is what they were called to at the time. He married her to protect her honor and they lived a celibate life because they committed themselves to God by protecting/raising Jesus and then following Him.
 
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Inkman:
Hi Lost Sheep,

It is not easy but has become less difficult for me in the last few months. At first I found myself in a real spin, I love my wife very very much but I cannot blatantly go against the Church’s teaching either. I am fully aware of what the Church teaches on this matter and the consequences of disobeying these will result in a mortal sin. If you believe what the Holy Church teaches about mortal sin…well you get the drift!

My wife is a very attractive woman and when I first met her I was very physically attracted, and still am, but not on the same level that we were years ago. I found that after the first few years I distanced myself from my wife, I mean I still loved her but we started to do a little less together as the sparks seemed to slow. But things seem to be changing, especially for me. I am finding things to love about my wife that I didn’t have before, I really and truly believe that the abstinence has made me much much closer to me wife, and I now have a different and better kind of love and respect for my wife.

My wife is the one who I think is really struggling with this, quite a bit more than she lets on I believe. I don’t think that it is the lack of sex that she struggles but the bonding that takes place during the marital act. As I said before she is not a Catholic and does not fully understand the Churches teachings, she is fully aware of them but just doesn’t agree with all of them. I on the other hand have found a much greater peace in my life when I try my hardest to obey everything that the Church teaches. I am also very blessed to have perpetual Adoration close to my work and a Church four houses over that allows me to attend a lot of Mass, especially if things are tough; Christ’s yoke certainly lightens the weight of burden.

My wife has now agreed to look into N.F.P with me (Creighton model sp?) which Catholic doctors say when followed properly is at the very least as effective as the (culture of death*)* pill. I am really hoping that she soon becomes open to another child but until then this, I believe is the best option I have.

God bless
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I’m most impressed with your devotion and discipline.
I believe these are behind your wife’s willingness to look into the Creighton model of NFP. Perhaps in time she will be called to complete conversion to the faith because of your committment and prayers.

I will certainly keep the two of you in my prayers.

God bless.

YYM
 
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777:
So? Me and my wife have been married for 12 years and we’ve never wanted children, much less had sex. Is that the one and only purpose of marriage? Just to make child ren? I thought marriage was just so that a male and a female could share their nonsexual love with each other.
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Two questions:
  1. Are either of you, or both, Catholic?
  2. Were you married in a Catholic church/ceremony?
 
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Pro-Life_Teen:
Money, money, money… No children also means no child that looks up to you. No little girl/boy (s) to welcome you from work, no mini hugs, no watching your child(ren) grow up, no bringing another life into the world. No call of 'Daddy/Mommy, can you come here?" No grandchildren at all.

Is it worth it? Is some extra cash worthy losing ^ that?
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What do you think? Besides, no children also means no brats to drive you nutzo and no teen age trouble.
 
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Pro-Life_Teen:
Marriage is so that a man and a woman can share their sexual love with each other, have children, help their spouse get to heaven etc.

And if you have never consumated your marriage, it isn’t valid.
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Small price to pay for a clean soul.
 
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