Celibate & Married (NFP)

[johndelacruz]

I am crying for you. This just breaks my heart to read. Please go to a good (Catholic if you can) therapist yourself. Learn how to deal with this. Your children have to be a priority, and they are learning from her behavior. She obviously needs help, and possibly medication. There is a stigma attached to the need for medication, but there should not be. (You’d take medicine for cancer, wouldn’t you?) You are likely to get good advice about how to get her to come to therapy. You are certain to get advice about how to take care of her.

Just a thought, not to scare you, but it is possible that the behavior is learned from her mother. Mothers do not generally tell their sons-in-law that their daughters are selfish- especially unprompted. They do not generally wonder how they live with them. That is kind of a red flag, IMO- but I am not a professional. You say yourself that everyone thinks you have a great marriage. That is to say, you may not be aware of issues your mother-in-law has. Even if I am wrong, you need to be thinking about your children. (I know you are!) Please talk to a therapist. How can you help your wife? How can you protect your children? These are questions for a professional.

Thank you for your heartfelt remarks - they truly are meaningful to me

I think her and her mother are just alike - they have their own conflictual relationship - my mother-in-law told me that, watching my wife and how she treats me ( yes, she treats me bad in front of them), she sees herself, and how she has treated my father-in-law through the years, and that she owes him a lot of apologies -

She tells me that my wife was always a demanding child, and always had to have things her way or would throw a fit, from a young child through teenage, through adulthood, to now as wife and mother, she is still that way - they gave in to her so much she has an entitlement attitude - I don’t blame them, because since I’ve been with her, I’ve done the same thing, acquiesced to make her happy - the refusal to stop being Catholic early in our marriage, and the refusal to use a condom, have been the only two things I’ve really stood up to her about - now I have a third: the refusal to allow her to scream at me and disrespect me in front of the children - I am still figuring out how to handle that one - I’ve discussed that with her and she seemed to agree, but then it happened again - so when I brought it up again, she asked me how many times am I going to tell her that? I said until you stop doing it, and then she runs into her bathroom and slams the door and weeps - I get the silent treatment for a couple days

I don’t get apologies, and of course no makeup sex - it always either simmering or boiling over, simmering or boiling over - I need to find the knob to turn the heat down…

 

[johndelacruz]

Great advice! That is exactly what my husband did to help be get through postpartum depression. He did not pull away, he loved me more. But he did not let me get away with false worries or accusations either. He kept me focused on reality. Still, I strongly suggest that he go to a therapist for advice about how to address this devastation. Especially if there is a suspicion that she survived a sexual trauma. Obviously she needs help, but he does too in learning how to care for her. I would want professional advice about how to approach her and how to approach the subject of her needing help.

One of her reasons to not go to therapy is that we cannot afford it - she has no idea I have been talking with folks about this, she would hate it - I have spoken with a gentleman on the phone from an NFP apostolate, great help and advice - also with two priests from another NFP organization, also great advice - and then anonymously here

my point is, she would see it as a betrayal for me to go to therapy and discuss our problems - I offered to attend couples therapy, and all that got out of her was a very skeptical “I don’t know…” and then silence - she doesn’t want to spend the money on therapy on herself, and certainly wouldn’t want me spending money to attend therapy

 

[johndelacruz]

I do understand that a bit. My own depression came close to destroying both my life and my marriage. Please do anything you possibly can to get her real help for it. It was my husband basically insisting that I get help (along with seeing my life begin to crumble) that finally forced my hand.

Now, after counseling (Cognitive Behavioral Therapy is SUPER effective) and medication, and a lot of communication, my mental health is where it should be, my life is back on track, and my marriage is much stronger.

thanks - I’m glad you got help - I will do my best to get her the help she needs

Thanks also everyone, for the prayers - this will take a miracle
Blessed John Paul II, prayer for us!

That reminds me, someone suggested that we read Theology of the Body, well I came across that material a few years back and it changed my outlook on everything, quite a n amazing set of teachings - she at that time also read Christopher West’s Theology of the Body for Beginners, and seemed to like it, but didn’t have much to say - she knows this stuff, but in the end, just doesn’t think God wants us to not be having sex, and if I would just use a condom, we could

She attacks my manhood over it: “well, if you were a real man, you would want to have sex with me, you would do whatever you could to have sex with me” - “Do you know how many men out there would love to have sex with me?” “Is something wrong with you?”

I have endured these types of comments over the years, but now it has dissolved into a cold silence -

thanks again for your prayers
—John

 

[DrPiano]

One of her reasons to not go to therapy is that we cannot afford it - she has no idea I have been talking with folks about this, she would hate it - I have spoken with a gentleman on the phone from an NFP apostolate, great help and advice - also with two priests from another NFP organization, also great advice - and then anonymously here

my point is, she would see it as a betrayal for me to go to therapy and discuss our problems - I offered to attend couples therapy, and all that got out of her was a very skeptical “I don’t know…” and then silence - she doesn’t want to spend the money on therapy on herself, and certainly wouldn’t want me spending money to attend therapy

Is there any chance your health insurance covers therapy? Some do… but unfortunately not all.

If not, look into your local Catholic Charities. They often have therapists that work on a sliding scale.

And I think that sometimes the Pastoral Solutions Institute (that telephone counseling service I mentioned earlier) might be able to work with you or make some other recommendations.

Especially in light of what you said earlier (about her OB and the medications and her asking you to choose a therapist) I think this might be a good opportunity for you to call around, find one that does Cognitive Behavioral Therapy (the only psychotherapy proven to help with depression), and insist that she go. But even once she’s in individual therapy, I think you guys need marriage therapy from a marriage friendly counselor.

 

[DrPiano]

She attacks my manhood over it: “well, if you were a real man, you would want to have sex with me, you would do whatever you could to have sex with me” - “Do you know how many men out there would love to have sex with me?” “Is something wrong with you?”

I have endured these types of comments over the years, but now it has dissolved into a cold silence -

thanks again for your prayers
—John

Believe me - it takes a TRUE man to stand firm for what you believe in and to love your wife and insist that she does what is best, even if it means sacrificing your own desires. Again, we’re praying for you!

 

[GraceDK]

Just a thought, not to scare you, but it is possible that the behavior is learned from her mother. Mothers do not generally tell their sons-in-law that their daughters are selfish- especially unprompted. They do not generally wonder how they live with them. That is kind of a red flag, IMO- but I am not a professional. You say yourself that everyone thinks you have a great marriage. That is to say, you may not be aware of issues your mother-in-law has. Even if I am wrong, you need to be thinking about your children. (I know you are!) Please talk to a therapist. How can you help your wife? How can you protect your children? These are questions for a professional.

This is what I thought too. The mothers reaction is odd. Normally a mother who has natural and healthy solidarity with her child wouldn’t say things like that. There might have been some psychological abuse going on, if not physical/sexual abuse in her childhood, because her behaviour really is that of a traumatized person.

 

[GraceDK]

Thank you for your heartfelt remarks - they truly are meaningful to me

I think her and her mother are just alike - they have their own conflictual relationship - my mother-in-law told me that, watching my wife and how she treats me ( yes, she treats me bad in front of them), she sees herself, and how she has treated my father-in-law through the years, and that she owes him a lot of apologies -

She tells me that my wife was always a demanding child, and always had to have things her way or would throw a fit, from a young child through teenage, through adulthood, to now as wife and mother, she is still that way - they gave in to her so much she has an entitlement attitude - I don’t blame them, because since I’ve been with her, I’ve done the same thing, acquiesced to make her happy - the refusal to stop being Catholic early in our marriage, and the refusal to use a condom, have been the only two things I’ve really stood up to her about - now I have a third: the refusal to allow her to scream at me and disrespect me in front of the children - I am still figuring out how to handle that one - I’ve discussed that with her and she seemed to agree, but then it happened again - so when I brought it up again, she asked me how many times am I going to tell her that? I said until you stop doing it, and then she runs into her bathroom and slams the door and weeps - I get the silent treatment for a couple days

I don’t get apologies, and of course no makeup sex - it always either simmering or boiling over, simmering or boiling over - I need to find the knob to turn the heat down…

I still see a red flag here with that mother in law. Not to say that it has to be like that, but some people are very manipulative as part of an abusive mind.

Besides people who are spoiled don’t necessarily become mentally ill, and need medication for anxiety and depression. The way you describe your wife, it seems she is really in a crisis, and the last thing you guys need is for the mother to point her finger etc.

One thing that complicates things is that you and your wife used to use contraception, so now that you have changed your oppinion, and she obviously hasn’t, she will see you as the one who changed the rules. That is unfortunate.
I think the whole thing comes somehow down to the children thing. She was using contraception exaggeratedly before having your first child but you do state that you had a pretty normal sexlife.

• was she happy duing pregnancy?
• was it a hard labor?
• how was she as a mother in the first period of time after your first was born?

It seems the thought of children trigger something, and she seems unhappy with her life as a SAHM. What other qualifications do she have? I say this because quite alot of women go down mentally when they have to stay at home with children for years… they can become isolated and start suffering from anxiety etc. Grown up people just don’t all handle isolation very well, and we dont live in little villages anymore ya know.

I have a feeling there is something you don’t know. Could she have been molested?
Could she have had an abortion? Could she have seen her parents fighting all her life (this also damages a child and puts a bomb under her world). Could it be that her mother has been very critical of her all her life too, and totally destroyed her self image and her sense of capability of doing anything right???

 

[1inICXC]

As far as her side, that is complicated, as I have counted four different sides/moods/personalities in her, so it would depend on which mood you ask, as to which side of her story is given - not that I mean that she has schizophrenia or multiple personality disorder, but just four different modes of interacting with me and the children at home (outside the home, she appears great and happy, which grates on me to see sometimes, to be honest)

Here are her modes:

1. Sweet, happy, kind: This is the girl I fell in love with - I don’t see her much anymore,but when I do, she says that I am a wonderful husband and father - she is in Moms group at church and comes home after comparing notes with other wives about their husbands, she says that all that I do for her and the children, and how I am home with them and not out with the guys at night, or golfing on weekends, of vegging out in front of ESPN - she says that the other women are jealous when she tells them what I do (I’m just staing facts her, I guess she brags on me there)
2. On the edge: This is where she spends most of the time now - simmering, bitter, nitpicking, critical, demanding, put-out with me and the kids, lacking affection, argumentative - I feel generally despised here - any little thing will set her off and move her into (3).
3. Raging, hysterical, shrieking, cursing, physical (pinches my arm or leg digging her fingernails into me) - there is no talking or reasoning at this point - when she is at this point, she threatens to leave - she truly appears and acts in every extreme way imaginable like she truly Hates me - it is the most awful face she wears at these times - unfortunately, even when she is in 1) mode, and smiling and seemingly happy, I still see the hatefushrieking face - and honestly hesitate in drawing near - my guard is up, because from experience I know that she could flip to 2 or 3 without warning. I avoid her at these times best I can, and it has gotten to where I feel myself avoiding her at other times too - avoiding her as anyone would avoid something that causes them pain.
4. Weepy, depressed, moping, very quiet, very withdrawn, but still with a keen anger just under the surface - she spends a lot of time here too - there is no bringing her out of it - I come home with my best good mood face on, smiling - I get halfhearted a smile from her at best - I try to be upbeat, but not obnoxious - the kids and I have a great time - she uses that time to take a “break”, on the computer, or watching TV, or just escaping upstairs

I find that I am a different person when she is not around, happier, more playful with the children - I feel freer, not having her critical eye glaring at me from around her laptop

Generally she would describe her problem as being very depressed and anxious, but not

knowing why - she told me once that she knows that she should be happy, that she has a wonderful husband (her words) and two wonderful children, but she can’t enjoy them - she also calls herself “mentally ill”

She takes Xanax and Zoloft - recently her OBGyn has not refilled her Xanax because she isn’t attending therapy (she had a falling out with the therapist) - now, just today, she is working her way through a list of therapists, but that overwhelms her, she says - she wants me to call them all and find the best one and set up an appointment - I guess I will end up doing that, but I really feel like she should put forth that effort herself - I also offered to go with her, and even added that we could do couples therapy - she said “why?” - I said gently “why do you think?” ( This is a woman who just three days ago asked me “at what point is our marriage over?”) She got offended, and said that I was just making things worse.

Well, I think most of us women can identify with all 4 modes - though we should certainly all be keeping 3 in check. From what I gather, it seems that on a practical level she sees what you do and to a certain extent appreciates it, otherwise she wouldn’t be bragging about it at the women’s group. I do think that she must be dissatisfied on the other levels however and it seems that it is due to her perception of real manhood among other things. She probably is expecting you to go wild and desperate from lack of sex- as a “real” man would and since she’s not seeing that it only fuels her rage.

Personally I think your lives are so badly compromised - don’t think that if you keep the peace the kids won’t pick up on the tensions and the lack of harmony between the 2of you- that you have nothing to risk anymore. Blow the horn and impose change NOW. I agree with the OP who said that that would be the real heroic thing to do.

If you know it’s gonna turn ugly, get someone to babysit the kids or take a day off while they’re at school, cancel your Internet an tv cable if you have to, or simply unplug them and demand of her to step up to the plate. She’s incapable of being the wife and mother she should be, fine- but she certainly is capable of calling therapists. She needs to be shaken up to see the damage she is causing you and the children and of course, make her understand that you are there for her and willing to pull your own weight - but stop pulling hers because that’s not going to help.

If you ensure her that she has your full support and will walk this path with her, as hard as it may be, then you’ve done your duty. You know, I wouldn’t force change- rather improvement- on anyone just for my sake, but because this is about the family, her soul and your childens’ well being then you would be merely an accomplice in letting her get away with this.

Pray hard and offer masses so that you pick a right time and that her heart be open to see and understand what she is doing and should be doing.

We will pray for you as well!

 

[Charlotte1776]

It sounds like there are much deeper psychological issues going on here, but just a thought from someone in the same situation - could part of the problem be that she never really enjoyed sex to begin with? I haven’t had sex since about halfway through my pregnancy and probably won’t again until next year (I know of way, way, way, way, way too many women who had surprise pregnancies despite using NFP properly - including having their charts looked at by instructors every month to be comfortable taking such a huge risk). And you know what? I’m not missing a dang thing. I feel sorry for my husband having to go without sex for a long time, but on the other hand I’ve had to go through basically the same thing the whole marriage too. 30 seconds in the same position each time because most others are physically impossible for him just isn’t worth the risk of getting pregnant. If your wife was too afraid to have sex more than once or twice a month before your 2nd child and stopped it completely after the birth, she might feel the same way.

Even if you think you had a good sex life before all this happened, your wife might not agree - I know I pretended to enjoy sex for a long time and she may have been doing the same thing. I tried to focus on just the emotional bonding aspect of sex after realizing physical pleasure just wasn’t going to happen, but that’s about as difficult to maintain long term as it is for you to maintain abstinence. At this point I’m so frustrated by the whole situation I’m not even sure I want to have sex with him anymore. We had plans to try and work on making it better after the pregnancy, but after going through months of misery and bedrest, a lengthy hospitalization for me and my 3-pound preemie baby, ongoing c-section complications, and $70,000+ in medical bills, it really seems like the physical, emotional, and financial risks of having sex are greater than the potential marital risks of not having it. NFP is just another burdensome cross to bear, though at least in my case it will only last until we’re ready for baby #2 (though if you had asked me the first week after the birth I would have told you there might not even be a baby #2! )

 

[GraceDK]

It sounds like there are much deeper psychological issues going on here, but just a thought from someone in the same situation - could part of the problem be that she never really enjoyed sex to begin with? I haven’t had sex since about halfway through my pregnancy and probably won’t again until next year (I know of way, way, way, way, way too many women who had surprise pregnancies despite using NFP properly - including having their charts looked at by instructors every month to be comfortable taking such a huge risk). And you know what? I’m not missing a dang thing. I feel sorry for my husband having to go without sex for a long time, but on the other hand I’ve had to go through basically the same thing the whole marriage too. 30 seconds in the same position each time because most others are physically impossible for him just isn’t worth the risk of getting pregnant. If your wife was too afraid to have sex more than once or twice a month before your 2nd child and stopped it completely after the birth, she might feel the same way.

Even if you think you had a good sex life before all this happened, your wife might not agree - I know I pretended to enjoy sex for a long time

Wow, why did you feel you had to pretend?
And why could you not enjoy sex?
I’ll admit I hope one day to have a regular sexlife with a good husband. Sex is pleasurable if its done right and in the right setting, with the right person, and with a harmonious marriage, no? I mean I don’t have much experience and what I do have, I shouldn’t have, because I am not married.
Just seems like there can be problems of no sex drive, due to hormonal problems etc. and such things can be cured so that you can enjoy sex. Lacking sexdrive often has a reason of earlier abuse, frigidity, problems in the relationship, or medical problems.
The other necessity to enjoy sex is that the female sexuality is also respected, that is that your husband knows how to satisfy you, and it takes of course more patience to satisfy women than men, normally. Could that be the problem? Some men still sadly have the idea that if only they have their sexual satisfaction its okay to leave the woman high and dry sometimes.
Now you have had some really stressful experiences with pregnancy, but from what I read about NFP it seems that it really is safe to use, if you use it the right way. Its simply fact that you dont ovulate 28 days a month, or have your period 28 days a month. There are clear signs of mucus and even temperature changes when you are fertile and when you are not.
So more insight into what you are doing and thinking might help the OP and the rest of us to understand…

 

[Barbkw]

She wasn’t very eager to have children at first, I was ready right away, but waited for her to come around - 5 years after we were married

She can be a devoted mother, sometimes

She is more into picking out clothes for them, and taking pictures (for facebook and to share) than the mundane stuff like changing diapers, baths, picking up after them, making school lunches or cooking dinner - those things fall to me, and I do them for the children - but I think I make it too easy for her to slack off - but then if I don’t do them, or leave something undone (like cleaning out the dishwasher and putting in the dirty dishes), then I am accused of not being supportive of her

I’d suggest fighting fire with fire. Don’t allow her manipulative slouth to control you. Explain to her that those duties (the cooking, cleaning, caring) are her daily responsibilities as a mother working at home.

P.S. She already knows that these are her responsibilities.

 

[Charlotte1776]

Wow, why did you feel you had to pretend?
And why could you not enjoy sex?

I guess I just didn’t want to be too graphic in my first post, but part of the problem is a significant, um, shortcoming. Not much more than an inch or two of part A goes into part B if you know what I mean. Another part is that when I say 30 seconds, I literally mean 30 seconds. So, what I have to do is warm up beforehand, then try to time it exactly so that I can finish in the 30 second window. If I’m not mistaken Catholic rules allow the woman to finish after the man if she wants, but that’s even less pleasurable.

It’s not that sex was never fun at all, it just wasn’t a whole lot of fun. And it’s not that I can’tt enjoy sex - I know this because of my imperfect past - so the issue isn’t some kind of hormonal balance.
At first I pretended to enjoy sex more than I really was to avoid hurting his feelings, and because I felt guilty for not enjoying it. Later on it was because telling him I wasn’t enjoying usually ended up with him get frustrated and kind of angry, and didn’t do a thing to solve the problem. After he told me I had unrealistic expectations for how much I should enjoy sex I pretended because I thought a “fake it 'til you make it” sort of approach might help. So I suppose you’re right that relationship problems are probably playing a role, because after he basically said that wanting to enjoy sex was unrealistic, I just gave up. When I think about having sex with him now, all those negative emotions definitely still get in the way.
As for the effectiveness of NFP, people throw around the 99% statistic a lot, but the actual effectiveness rate is lower. And it’s much lower postpartum - I’ve seen studies that found it’s only 75-83% effective in the year after birth, and you can knock it even lower if you’re breastfeeding. Because I’m not going to be using NFP in real life and not in a laboratory, the actually effectiveness rate is far more relevant than the 99% statistic. I’m sure at least one person is going to point out that the actual effectiveness rates of ABC are not 99% either, but there’s no way around the fact that the room for user error with NFP is far, far larger. I don’t want to use ABC though, so I’m kind of stuck between a rock and a hard place. I can imagine the OP’s wife feels similarly trapped, because it’s so easy for others to say she has no valid reason not to have a kid so she is basically required to have one now, but they’re not the ones who are going to have to care for it for 18+ years.

 

[DancinAngel]

Your wife is not holding up her end of the bargain as far as being your wife. If you both entered into this marriage on the same page, and you are both Catholic of your own free well, and you are doing everything right that you know to do, then she is the problem. IMO you have grounds for divorce and annulment. Mind you, that is just my humble opinion. However, if I were in your shoes, I would definitly look into both of those things and then place the facts before her in black and white (documented).

Maybe those actions will be enough to wake her up. If not, I would pursue divorce and annulment.

It really does seem like she is suffering from a mental illness, which shouldn’t be so stigmatized. Sure, she’s not pulling her part as his wife, but if she is incapable of doing so due to a disability from an illness such as depression, then I don’t think that’s a good enough reason for a divorce. If she had a debilitating physical illness that created a situation where she couldn’t complete her “wifely duties” would you suggest a divorce? Didn’t we all say for better or worse, in sickness and in health? emotional/mental illnesses are a sickness. I grew up in a family with a parent with a clinical mental illness. I’ve seen first hand how it debilitating it is to the entire family, and in my case, it caused my parent to have an affair. Yes, they made a choice, yes, they chose to be unfaithful, yes it tore apart my family, yes it hurt, yes, it still makes me angry. BUT, at the end of the day all I can do is pray that the Holy Spirit will come to them and they will realize what they’ve done. They are sick, and yes, I blame them for the choice they made, but I pity them, because even now they are suffering and paying the price.

to the OP, leaving your wife won’t solve her emotional state, it won’t make her a better mother, and it’s always worse for kids to grow up with one parent, even if it’s for the best. If your wife doesn’t want to go to counseling, then I would suggest that you seek counseling so you can learn how to cope with living with someone with a mental illness. Just a thought, how has your tone been when suggesting that she returned to counseling? Are you telling her that she needs it and should go, perhaps she sees it as nagging? (she could feel like your telling her something is wrong with her, and it’s very scary for people with mental illnesses to admit that there is something wrong, they often feel like they’ve done something wrong to cause it, even though it comes on just like any other sickness) Have you presented it in a way that you want to go to counseling and since she is your wife and you seek her support you would like her to join you? Then in a safe setting you can bring up your concerns with how her behavior affects you. If you make it about you and not her, perhaps she will feel safer going and you and the counselor can ease her into working out her own issues.

I will definitely keep you in my prayers…that must be a scary and frustrating situation for your whole family.

Another thought, if she is on facebook so much, have you considered trying to reach out to her there? Maybe leaving sweet and loving messages on her wall? If she says she feels alone, she might be having a hard time accepting your loving actions. If that’s her current outlet, maybe it’s a starting place to reach her emotionally and let her know you still love her and want to help her.

Obviously, I’m not in your life, and I don’t know the full situation, but I hope it works out for you.

 

[Barbkw]

Saliva test - 98% effective in determining ovulation.

winnipegfreepress.com/local/saliva-test-eliminates-pregnancy-guesswork-113572679.html

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=7833946#post7833946

In 1945, a Romanian researcher, George Papanicolau, noticed that cervical mucus, when spread on a glass slide and left to dry, produced a fern-leaf pattern. Then in 1969, Biel Cassals, a Spanish gynecologist, discovered there was a correlation between women’s hormone levels during the menstrual cycle and the amount of fern pattern in her saliva. In fact, it was identical to that seen in cervical mucus.

Later, in 1994, studies conducted at the Clinical Center in Serbia concluded that saliva ferning was as effective as cervical mucus samples or ultrasound in timing the date of ovulation. And that by using a mini-microscope saliva ovulation test, women could distinguish between fertile and infertile days of the menstrual cycle.

The Baby Time Mini-Microscope Saliva Ovulation Test is a small, lipstick-size container that correctly forecasts time of ovulation. It has no side-effects and is inexpensive. It can be reused month after month.

The test is easy to use. In the morning before brushing teeth, saliva is placed on a glass slide and allowed to dry for 10 minutes. The mini-microscope then magnifies the saliva by a power of 52 to detect its pattern. During infertile days, women will notice a pattern of formless dots or pebbles in the mucus. As ovulation approaches, the dots will start to be joined by a few lines. Then on the day of ovulation, the full-blown fern pattern will emerge. It is very hard to miss. The test can also be used later in the day at least three hours after drinking, eating or smoking.

 

[DancinAngel]

my point is, she would see it as a betrayal for me to go to therapy and discuss our problems - I offered to attend couples therapy, and all that got out of her was a very skeptical “I don’t know…” and then silence - she doesn’t want to spend the money on therapy on herself, and certainly wouldn’t want me spending money to attend therapy

Okay, red flag here sir…If she is already taking medication for depression and they aren’t working, have her doctors tried to adjust her dosage? Also, I’m not a professional, but people who are depressed tend to have a lot of unnecessary guilt. I think if you chose to attend therapy yourself that is your prerogative, especially if you are bringing home the paycheck. Instead of couples counseling, perhaps start with going yourself, and asking if she will go with you to support you. Many depressed people want it to be about them (even if they say otherwise, or think they feel otherwise) if you suggest couples counseling she thinks it’s about her. Perhaps she is afraid to face her own demons. Try making returning to counseling about you. Don’t worry about the money - even if it’s tight…if money was tight and she got cancer would you not get treatment because of what it costs? If she’s fighting you, she could be scared, feel like she’s messed up beyond repair, doesn’t feel she has the capacity to fix it, etc, etc. If you seek her support perhaps it will help her start climbing out of her deep hole, and slowly be willing to try and support your family again.

 

[KostyaJMJ]

Saliva test - 98% effective in determining ovulation.

winnipegfreepress.com/local/saliva-test-eliminates-pregnancy-guesswork-113572679.html

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=7833946#post7833946

You can actually observe the ferning patterns in saliva and predict ovulation with just about any old microscope.

I was really hopeful about using this kind of device since temp and CM observations are out for my wife and I, but I haven’t heard of anyone using it successfully. I would be really cautious about using the device you mentioned if you’re serious about avoiding because it isn’t intended to be used as a contraception.

systems using a mini-microscope, which rely on the user recognising ‘ferning’ patterns from small samples of saliva or cervical mucus. Ferning patterns indicate fertility, so an absence of ‘ferning’ indicates a non-fertile day. But, the three systems using this method registered false negatives of 51.8%, 58% and 73.4% respectively for the women who tried one of these methods. This meant that even the most accurate was wrong at least half the time that it indicated that the woman was in a non-fertile part of her cycle while the worst was wrong nearly three-quarters of the time.

scienceblog.com/community/older/2003/E/20032612.html

 

[johndelacruz]

Another thought, if she is on facebook so much, have you considered trying to reach out to her there? Maybe leaving sweet and loving messages on her wall? If she says she feels alone, she might be having a hard time accepting your loving actions. If that’s her current outlet, maybe it’s a starting place to reach her emotionally and let her know you still love her and want to help her.

That is a good idea on the face of it (no pun intended) - I really don’t want to get into facebook, and she is really picky on how her wall is, and who posts what - silliness - and she checks in constantly
I do send her little emails (she checks her email just as frequently
I’d like to get her off facebook, or get her to cut back - one year, I think it was 2 years ago, she gave up facebook for Lent but just on Fridays - was really rough on her - she didn’t curtail it all this past Lent, although I gently suggested it

 

[johndelacruz]

Some good insights there, and by (most) everyone - thanks

I will need time to sort through all the advice I’ve received

some of it is quite contradictory: for example, an NFP priest advised me that celebacy is the only moral option, and suggested that I not sleep in the bed with her to avoid a “near occasion to sin” - however folks here have suggested that I continue sleeping with her - I am torn on that one.

Turns out lately I’ve sleeping a lot in the guest room, because she “sleeps better when I’m not in the bed with her”

I used to resist this, and sleep in there anyway, despite her anger - but now, goodness, it so refreshing sometimes to have time away from her (being honest here).

Truly, my happiest times now are the times when I am not with her - I feel relief, and dance inside - sometimes on the outside too - recently she went out shopping by hersel (she loves doing that), and it was just the kids and I at home - I turned on some swing music and we danced and danced together until we were all exhausted - so much fun - for some reason, that impulse is supressed when she is around.

I was asked about how has it been since the beginning of our relationship, has she always been like this - well, she went off on me really bad shortly after we were engaged - scared me actually, but she apologized - I at one point broke off the engagement, and intended to not marry her - but she turned on the tears and weeping, horrible soul tearing weeping - I felt so torn, I ended up taking her back - now I see her ways and know that I was totally manipulated - On Our Honeymoon, leaving the hotel to come home, she raged at me so so bad, I couldn’t believe it - and I drove clinching the steering wheel while she shrieked at me, and I was thinking oh dear God I’ve made such a mistake - how’s that for starting out a marriage? She pulled out the f-word on me within a few weeks - I still recall us walking down the sidewalk with her cussing and yelling at me, me trying to stay calm and calm her down, her escalating with my every attempt - same pattern as now - ugh! I spent the greater part of the past 12 years trying to please her, that maybe I wasn’t being a good enough husband - but now I realize that she is the one with the problem, and I should not feel responsible for her horrible behavior (thought she tries to convince me that it’s all my fault)

I work in social services, and at times with domestic violence victims - I don’t know why I never saw it before, but I live in a cycle of abuse myself: buildup, blowup, remorse, buildup blowup, remorse - and the guys who beat their wives generally turn it around on the women and tell them that if the wife just would have done this or that, or not done or said this or that, they would not have “had” to hit them - she tells me the same thing, except she beats me with her words and rage, and uses sex as a weapon by withholding to punish me - if she were a man though, and I the woman, I have a strong feeling that she would be a wife-beater.

As far as diagnosis, after reading and studying and seeking advice, I think that here is what she is dealing with (and the children and I have to live with):

1. Depression
2. Generalized Anxiety Disorder
3. Borderline Personality Disorder
4. Premenstral Dysphoric Disorder (PMDD)

She fits the symptoms of all of these so well - mood, anxiety, personality and hormonal issues - each one of these is horrible to suffer with, and for others to live with -

Luckily, her OBGyn has recently (yesterday) making her call actual psychiatrists to set up and appt, not just talk therapists - we shall see - thanks for your prayers
—John

 

[GraceDK]

Some good insights there, and by (most) everyone - thanks

I will need time to sort through all the advice I’ve received

some of it is quite contradictory: for example, an NFP priest advised me that celebacy is the only moral option, and suggested that I not sleep in the bed with her to avoid a “near occasion to sin” - however folks here have suggested that I continue sleeping with her - I am torn on that one.

Turns out lately I’ve sleeping a lot in the guest room, because she “sleeps better when I’m not in the bed with her”

I used to resist this, and sleep in there anyway, despite her anger - but now, goodness, it so refreshing sometimes to have time away from her (being honest here).

Truly, my happiest times now are the times when I am not with her - I feel relief, and dance inside - sometimes on the outside too - recently she went out shopping by hersel (she loves doing that), and it was just the kids and I at home - I turned on some swing music and we danced and danced together until we were all exhausted - so much fun - for some reason, that impulse is supressed when she is around.

I was asked about how has it been since the beginning of our relationship, has she always been like this - well, she went off on me really bad shortly after we were engaged - scared me actually, but she apologized - I at one point broke off the engagement, and intended to not marry her - but she turned on the tears and weeping, horrible soul tearing weeping - I felt so torn, I ended up taking her back - now I see her ways and know that I was totally manipulated - On Our Honeymoon, leaving the hotel to come home, she raged at me so so bad, I couldn’t believe it - and I drove clinching the steering wheel while she shrieked at me, and I was thinking oh dear God I’ve made such a mistake - how’s that for starting out a marriage? She pulled out the f-word on me within a few weeks - I still recall us walking down the sidewalk with her cussing and yelling at me, me trying to stay calm and calm her down, her escalating with my every attempt - same pattern as now - ugh! I spent the greater part of the past 12 years trying to please her, that maybe I wasn’t being a good enough husband - but now I realize that she is the one with the problem, and I should not feel responsible for her horrible behavior (thought she tries to convince me that it’s all my fault)

I work in social services, and at times with domestic violence victims - I don’t know why I never saw it before, but I live in a cycle of abuse myself: buildup, blowup, remorse, buildup blowup, remorse - and the guys who beat their wives generally turn it around on the women and tell them that if the wife just would have done this or that, or not done or said this or that, they would not have “had” to hit them - she tells me the same thing, except she beats me with her words and rage, and uses sex as a weapon by withholding to punish me - if she were a man though, and I the woman, I have a strong feeling that she would be a wife-beater.

As far as diagnosis, after reading and studying and seeking advice, I think that here is what she is dealing with (and the children and I have to live with):

1. Depression
2. Generalized Anxiety Disorder
3. Borderline Personality Disorder
4. Premenstral Dysphoric Disorder (PMDD)

She fits the symptoms of all of these so well - mood, anxiety, personality and hormonal issues - each one of these is horrible to suffer with, and for others to live with -

Luckily, her OBGyn has recently (yesterday) making her call actual psychiatrists to set up and appt, not just talk therapists - we shall see - thanks for your prayers
—John

Brother, thats all so rough. My heart goes out to you.
Im so happy about the last line though. And I think she must know that she is not functioning.
When it comes to borderliner syndrom. Its often caused by childhood trauma or sexual assault in childhood or later even. Good news is that as far as I know borderliner can actually be cured alot through therapy. I have a friend who is married to an obsessive compulsive man, its intolerable in their daily life, and this man cannot see that he has a problem and he thinks all psychology is of the devil. The wife is at her wits end. Just so you know… there are other people in the same situation as you with whom you can spiritually unite when you feel really sad.
You are right to say that you live in an abusive household, and you have every reason to set your foot down - as a man you can be intimidating if you want to… a power often lacking when the situation is opposite and the wife is the abused one - and even to give her a dilemma in earnest: treatment or seperation. If she is borderliner she will be very scared of being abandoned, and this possibility might change her so she seeks help…
I have never been in a situation like what you are in, Im not even married, but I did have a boyfriend for a while who was a functional alcoholic, and it quite messed me up how he treated me.
When was the last time you guys had a decent conversation?
I notice you say that she tells you she loves you in the evening as a response. I see that as a good sign.
Man, my heart just goes out to you both. Tell us what happens with the psychiatrist.

 

[johndelacruz]

First off, God bless you! My prayers are definitely with you. A lot of people have commented on what an amazing husband you sound like… and no doubt, you definitely do. However, I am surprised that for a man who appears to be living his faith so strongly in regards to the refusing to use birth control issue, that you seem to have missed the boat entirely on other issues.

It is your catholic duty to be the man of your household. Your wife’s soul and the souls of your children may very well depend on it. As wonderful as it is that you cook and clean and see that the children are in bathed and in bed each night, I think they are being exposed to extreme dysfunction. I feel for you immensely, but I don’t necessarily see you as a hero in this situation. Saintly maybe, but not a hero.

The most charibtable thing you can do at this point is to upset the apple cart. Let her push the nuclear button. It will make your household hellish but someone has to step up and that someone must be you. Not only because she WONT, but because it is your duty as a catholic husband. Someday you will have to answer for your actions and right now, it doesn’t sound like that is going to go very well.

Well, I am in the process of discerning my best course of action in this, besides prayer and waiting, hence opening up to others (which is new for me), getting advice from clergy, and reading books on the matter. Until recently, I have felt very much alone, blamed myself and discussed it with no one except Our Lord.

I am going to be reading a book that has been recommended by several people: “How to Stop Walking on Eggshells”, abotu living with someone with Borderline Personality - hopefully some good strategies will emerge for me, which may be “upsetting the apple cart.”

Right now, what I have gleaned is to not engage her at all when she is being critical or verbally abusive. Also, I cannot force her to do anything, I cannot change her, I should learn to accept that fact - so they teach. I need to focus on my reactions, and maintaining my own sense of sanity and self, and a healthy outlook on life, and being a good father - she can come along if she wants, but if she doesn’t it should not unduly frustrate me.

I do indeed feel like a single dad when I am, but when I own that, it actually hurts less. But when I continually fixate on all she is not doing (sex included), or that she treats me so badly, or sits on the laptop while I cook, clean, put up grocieries, play with the kids etc, I only grow more resentful, and I’ve found that (for me) the slip from resentment to hatred can take place so easily.

Also, at a priest’s recommendation, since I will be living a celebate life indefinitely, he suggested I get a copy of “Priestly Celebacy Today”, which is aimed at seminarians and young priests, but he said the same principles of living without physical sexual intimacy can apply to any single (or my case, married) man who is facing a life without sex.

I mentioned it before, that this all so ironic, since when I was single I felt a strong draw towards the monastic life, but I didn’t pursue it because at the time I didn’t think (in my immaturity) that I could live or find happiness in the celebate life - now a celebate life has been forced upon me.

I pray the Divine Office, attend daily Mass whenever possible, have started saying a rosary on my commute home in the evenings, specifically for her as a wife and mother, and for our marriage and family. This is going to take a miracle, but miracle or not I am committed to making this work.

I will let you all know how it goes with the psychiatrist - the prior therapist and physician who prescribed her medication didn’t go so well - she really gets anxious taking any medication like that (Xanax and Zoloft) - I believe folks are right too, she avoids really opening up to a therapist, and also even to her OBGyn, about what she is really going through, because it would entail exposing her faults, which she avoids at all costs.

thanks for all your prayers!
John