Celibate & Married (NFP)

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Originally Posted by graceandglory
Sounds more like depression than anything else.
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Posted by JLV:
John, I’m only at post #19 reading your thread, but I have to tell this is exactly my impression so far - anger and rage are often signs of depression. I mean depression in a medical, clinical sense, something that must be treated medically. You already said your wife refuses to see a marriage therapist. Would she agree to see a psychiatrist who would possibly prescribe her medication for her depression? You must talk to your in-laws, too, and jointly put pressure on your wife to agree and be checked out by a psychiatrist.
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John, I’m reposting this here because your other thread has been apparently hijacked by someone stirring the pot.
 
Joseph_L_Varga said:
Originally Posted by graceandglory
Sounds more like depression than anything else.

Posted by JLV:
John, I’m only at post #19 reading your thread, but I have to tell this is exactly my impression so far - anger and rage are often signs of depression. I mean depression in a medical, clinical sense, something that must be treated medically. You already said your wife refuses to see a marriage therapist. Would she agree to see a psychiatrist who would possibly prescribe her medication for her depression? You must talk to your in-laws, too, and jointly put pressure on your wife to agree and be checked out by a psychiatrist.

John, I’m reposting this here because your other thread has been apparently hijacked by someone stirring the pot.
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You are right, the other thread got off track

For those who are involved in this current thread, please note that I was not asking whether or not the Church’s teachings on contraception is right or wrong - I accept everything that the Catholic Church teaches, and so reject contraception - that was the starting point for this thread - if someone wants to debate the Church’s position, then I’m sure there are threads dealing with that, or start your own.

My issue here how to live within the difficult constraints I described, and not violate the Church’s moral teachings and the precepts of the Gospel.

So please do not dilute and distract this discussion by suggesting options that are opposed to Church teaching, for instance, do not suggest:
  • convincing my wife to use contraception herself
  • that I use a condom
  • tubal ligation for my wife, or vasectomy for me
  • divorce
  • etc
These are off the table, so please don’t suggest them.

I have been truly edified by the fair-minded moral advice and encouragement (and genuine sympathy) received from the bulk of responders - thank you.

My wife has an intake appointment with a psychiatrist on Wed next week, 1pm EST, so if you think of it, please prayer for her, that she will have Christ’s peace, and be brave enough to openly share the fullness of all that she is struggling with and putting her family through - and so receive the help she needs.

—John
 
johndelacruz said:
My wife has an intake appointment with a psychiatrist on Wed next week, 1pm EST, so if you think of it, please prayer for her, that she will have Christ’s peace, and be brave enough to openly share the fullness of all that she is struggling with and putting her family through - and so receive the help she needs.

—John
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YAY! I’ll let my husband know so he can pray too!
 
John, I couldn’t help think of my own family in your post. I suspect my mom has BPD based on several counselors I talked to when I needed support. My dad was very passive, so he really tried not to provoke her. We all had to be careful about what we said to her growing up, or risk initiating a rage. My mom has mellowed with age, and she started taking an SSRI successfully about 10 years ago, which really helped. The toughest time was when my sister and I were young…but we were born 10 years about, so that time was elongated.

Stop Walking on Eggshells was an eye-opener for me. And going to therapy alone (to help me unlearn bad habits) was very key. You have a tough road. For the sake of your children, please do not be passive and enable the behavior. By that I mean to educate yourself about your wife’s illness. See if she’ll let you talk to her doctor afterwards, and get your own to learn coping skills for you and your kids.

Growing up was tough, but things are much better now…albeit many years later when I figured some things out. You already have strong suspicions, so you’re in an even better position. My prayers are with you today.
 
90Domer said:
John, I couldn’t help think of my own family in your post. I suspect my mom has BPD based on several counselors I talked to when I needed support. My dad was very passive, so he really tried not to provoke her. We all had to be careful about what we said to her growing up, or risk initiating a rage. My mom has mellowed with age, and she started taking an SSRI successfully about 10 years ago, which really helped. The toughest time was when my sister and I were young…but we were born 10 years about, so that time was elongated.

Stop Walking on Eggshells was an eye-opener for me. And going to therapy alone (to help me unlearn bad habits) was very key. You have a tough road. For the sake of your children, please do not be passive and enable the behavior. By that I mean to educate yourself about your wife’s illness. See if she’ll let you talk to her doctor afterwards, and get your own to learn coping skills for you and your kids.

Growing up was tough, but things are much better now…albeit many years later when I figured some things out. You already have strong suspicions, so you’re in an even better position. My prayers are with you today.
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Thank you - I do worry about my children, and your response helps me think about this from that angle - they are old enough now to have memories of this when they are adults - I ask my wife does she want them to have childhood memories of her screaming and being hateful? When I try to tell her this when she is starting a rage in front of them, she has said “I don’t care” or “it’s your fault”, and then continue to rage and it gets worse.

I have started in this past year to stand up for myself more, to resist unreasonable demands - to do what I feel I need to do for my children’s well being and my own. I do husbandly things for her when I feel it is reasonable, and because I am still a nice person - but I don’t do it because she is screaming and yelling or being manipulative or putting a guilt trip on me or threatening to leave - and I don’t do it as much anymore to avoid setting her off - I am living my life, and taking care of my children, and if what I do sets her off, oh well - I am doing what I feel I need to do.

I asked if she wanted me to go with her to the appt and she said that she didn’t know - also I am staying with our daughter and picked our son up from school while she is there -

I hope the doctor picks up on the BPD - the “Stop walking on Eggshells” book, and the “sequel” “The Essential Family Guide to Borderline Personality Disorder” appear to be written directly to me - however, there appear to be no meds especially for it, only meds for some of the symptoms or co-existing disorders (depression, anxiety).

I am being entirely supportive of her going to the doctor, of course, but honestly I have my interior reservations - this will not be a cure all - I suspect that she will not be happy with the experience, the doctor won’t be nice enough, or will prescribe too much medication, or the wrong medication, the medication will make her feel weird and then she will agonize over whether to take it or not, will then pester the doctor repeatedly on the phone, the doctor will not be responsive enough etc - she will stop going - this is what happened before. She said that if this doctor doesn’t work out, she will not go to one again.

But I am hopeful, and she didn’t have all these people prayer specifically for her last time : )
 
UPDATE:

My wife did go to the psychiatrist appt - and it was interesting how, after a 3 day rant and rage, the night before her appt, when she was filling out the preliminary paperwork, she was so drastically changed, so mild, so easy going, so congenial - as if trying to convince herself that she is not “that bad” - in fact, she said that after reading through the questionaire, she felt better, that she could be worse -

One of the questions was “How do you rate your marriage?” on a five point scale - she asked me if she thought our marriage was “Good” or “Fair” - I asked her what came after Fair, and she got offended, saying “Do you not think we have a good marriage?” I mentioned calmly that sometimes I don’t think we do, and also we haven’t had sex in over three years - she dismissed that by saying that that wasn’t her fault, it was mine - end of discussion - the questionaire asked about how often per month we have sex, and I’m not sure if she put 0 or not - I think she did, but the MD didn’t ask her about it

I stayed home from work to watch out 3 year old while she went to the appt - before she left, I mentioned to her to discuss “everything”, and to open up fully to the MD - she said that she would - I mentioned about our lack of sex life too, and she said that has nothing to do with her, it is all my fault -

She came back with a increased prescription for Zoloft, which for a while made her feel tired and achy and gave her more reason not to do anything around the house - but eventually her mood has improved, although she remains volatile, and little nothings can set her off - I steer clear at those times

We did have a brief discussion again about sex, until it became an argument - she was saying that she wanted sex, why won’t I use a condom? I explained that we had been over this, it would be a sin for me to use a condom - if she wants sex, let’s start charting again - she said that 1) her cycles aren’t regular and 2) she doesn’t trust NFP - she was willing to use NFP before our 2nd child was born, because she was open to having another child (we didn’t concieve until we purposely had sex during the fertile time) - she says that now she doesn’t want anymore children, and so she doesn’t want to take the risk - she went back to her cycles aren’t regular - I suggested that we chart, just to see, and she refused saying that it’s too much trouble to take temps every morning - she said why can’t I just use a condom? - I advised her that she is asking me to do something I believe is sinful, and that I am not asking her to sin, just take her temp and I will even chart it for her - at this point it became an argument - this was about 3 weeks ago and it hasn’t been discussed since.

thanks for your continued prayers everyone
John
 
Hi there folks, for those who are interested, I am still very much struggling with this issue.

I have been wondering lately why I have been so angry generally, quite out of character for me - I had resigned myself to no sex since that has been imposed on my by my wife, she still stands firm. I thought I could push that away and it not be much of a problem, but then I see that my sexual libido is like a caged and starved animal, clawing for some way out to feed its hunger - it is angry, and desperate.

I see now that my wife, by starving me and refusing to even give NFP a chance, is endangering my soul - on one hand, by pressuring me to use a condom, while if I do so, I gravely sin and risk going to Hell - on the other hand, by refusing sex for months and years like this, she is putting me at serious risk for things like pornography, masturbation, infidelity, and other lewdness as my sex drive pushes for expression. I have staved off these things, by the grace of God, but it has not been without great struggle and, frankly, heroic daily self-control. I know that to commit sexual sin, even to feed innate desires that are being unjustly deprived, would endanger my soul to Hell.

I am hemmed in by Hell on all sides, and my wife, my closest friend, seems to be pushing me in that direction one way or another, whether she realizes it or not.

I am sexually committed to a person who refuses to have sex with me - how ironic is that?!

And then she wonders why our marriage is dull and lifeless -

I found a great article about this issue, that for me really hit the nail on the head regarding refusing one’s spouse sex:
townhall.com/columnists/dennisprager/2008/12/23/when_a_woman_isnt_in_the_mood_part_i/page/full/

I sent the article to her by email yesterday - here was her response: “???”

I wrote back: “interesting reading”

She wrote back: “Did you want me to glean something out of the article?”

My response: “sure - did you glean anything from it?”

No response back from her.

After I went home after work yesterday, she made no mention of the article all night. I cooked dinner (because she won’t), and then mowed the lawn. When I came back in, it was almost time (for me) to put the kids to bed. She screamed at me and the kids about how messed up the house is, then asked me for a back massage, which I gave her until my fingers were sore, and she still wanted more.
While I put the kids to bed, she went to Facebook and then to reading her novel in bed. She was staying up late reading, so I kissed her on the forehead and said goodnight and I love you, she looked up and said “I love you”, then looked back to her book. I went to bed in the other room because I have to get up early for work (and she doesn’t like me in the room with her because I snore).

Such is my married life -

john
 
:crying: Your post makes me so sad.

I’m so sorry. I’ll be continuing to pray for you. 😦
 
Well, it’s only a few years until menopause. I’m not sure if that was a joke. Anyway, I’d think even the most cautious approaches to NFP would allow for a few days after menstruation and a few days at the end of the month prior to menstruation where she could feel confident enough about avoiding pregnancy. Think about it and all I’m saying is that maybe you could agree to something like that.If you alter your approach to NFP where you are simply looking for a few days a month instead of trying to only avoid a few days a month it should be relatively easy to find them and find a way where you could have relations at least once or twice a month.
 
white_sheep said:
Well, it’s only a few years until menopause. I’m not sure if that was a joke. Anyway, I’d think even the most cautious approaches to NFP would allow for a few days after menstruation and a few days at the end of the month prior to menstruation where she could feel confident enough about avoiding pregnancy. Think about it and all I’m saying is that maybe you could agree to something like that.If you alter your approach to NFP where you are simply looking for a few days a month instead of trying to only avoid a few days a month it should be relatively easy to find them and find a way where you could have relations at least once or twice a month.
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Yeah of course it would be easy. But his wife is clearly a cold-hearted word that begins with “b.”
 
The_Bucket said:
Yeah of course it would be easy. But his wife is clearly a cold-hearted word that begins with “b.”
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believe me, I have a little voice inside me saying that b-word when she is going off and being heartless - but I must be charitable
 
white_sheep said:
Well, it’s only a few years until menopause. I’m not sure if that was a joke. Anyway, I’d think even the most cautious approaches to NFP would allow for a few days after menstruation and a few days at the end of the month prior to menstruation where she could feel confident enough about avoiding pregnancy. Think about it and all I’m saying is that maybe you could agree to something like that.If you alter your approach to NFP where you are simply looking for a few days a month instead of trying to only avoid a few days a month it should be relatively easy to find them and find a way where you could have relations at least once or twice a month.
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I am 40 and she is 39, might be another decade or so what do you think?

She will not take her temp - I offered to do all the charting, and this arrangement worked until we had our second child 5 years ago - The two times in the past 5 years we have had sex was when I convinced her that since she was only a few days from having her period, that she was infertile - she regretted it both times, and worried herself to death until she started her period, that she was pregnant - now she cannot be convinced to use that method at least once a month, when she knows she is well past ovulation and almost to menstration - she “doesn’t trust it [NFP]” - and also, she said that anyway she doesn’t “feel like” having sex at that time of the month.

The only time she “feels like it” is right smack in the middle of her cycle, her most fertile time, and that is when she gives me a hardest time about refusing to use a condom.

It’s not just about the sex as you can probably tell from my earlier posts - I say this objectively, from observing her behavior, she is often hateful, lazy and selfish - it’s incredible sometimes to observe it. She has no self-insight.

I’m not perfect by no means, but I truly am one of the “good guys” - she could have it so much worse, but she treats me like her worst enemy, and says I never do anything to help her (!)

Honestly, during times of most clarity and coolness of thought, I really think she would be happy if I divorced her, or died.

In the divorce scenario, she would have sympathy because she could say “he left me” - and have me painted as the villain - she has a friend whose husband left her, and her friend has all sorts of sympathy (as she should)

In the death scenario, she would have sympathy because she would be the pitiful widow with two young children.

What she cannot do, is leave me - it would look too bad on her.

Let’s hope she doesn’t resort to murder - I say that half-joking, but sometimes I really think she would not grieve my death.

Too sad I know - just being honest - that’s how I feel - what a life!!!

Our Lord and my children are what keep me going (and staying)

—john
 
John, I can relate to a lot of this brother. I can’t tell you how it is in your situation, but a lot of your wife’s behavior’s are mirrored in mine. My wife also stays at home. I also work full time (as a restaurant manager, often 60 hour work-weeks) and do almost everything at home. I can agree with something said in the other thread you started about this same thing about the lack of intimacy that may be aiding (not causing) some of these behaviors. However, it seems that may not have a resolution at the moment. Also, for me, for a long time in the relationship between my wife and I, I WAS the person she thinks I am now–lazy, selfish, didn’t work much, she took care of the money–and so I have to keep that in mind with current behaviors. Also, sometimes God calls us into relationships for the purpose of sanctifying the other or being able to help someone else going through something (Hosea’s wife in the Bible was a prositute).

However, all I can do is say what some others have said. Bear the cross brother. Remember that Jesus said that greater love has no man than to lay one’s life down for one’s friends–and this is your wife! Die to yourself and live for her (and Jesus). That’s all I can say. It won’t be easy. Our Lord’s death on the cross was the worst suffering imaginable. But join your suffering with His.
 
Well, even without taking a temp or observations you can pretty well count on at least the three days following menstruation to be infertile. She doesn’t have to temp, you can use external observations, a calendar, and some common sense and know pretty well that ovulation was 10 days ago and you just aren’t going to get pregnant. Also, they make the fertility monitors. But if you can’t even get her to take her temperature, that might just be too much work.

Oh, I have forgotten to mention that this is what God made alcohol for. I’ve used that trick before.
 
white_sheep said:
Well, even without taking a temp or observations you can pretty well count on at least the three days following menstruation to be infertile. She doesn’t have to temp, you can use external observations, a calendar, and some common sense and know pretty well that ovulation was 10 days ago and you just aren’t going to get pregnant. Also, they make the fertility monitors. But if you can’t even get her to take her temperature, that might just be too much work.

Oh, I have forgotten to mention that this is what God made alcohol for. I’ve used that trick before.
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She is unreasonably paranoid about getting pregnant - the few instances when we “make out” she won’t let “me” get near “her” at all - she feels that even if she is just about to have her period, she thinks it is still “possible” to get pregnant, so she doesn’t want to risk it - I remind her that even with a condom, it is still possible to get pregnant, but she doesn’t seem to see that point.

In all actuality, when she was open to having children and having sex, it wasn’t that often - she has always been very finicky, the planets and all their moons had to converge just right for her to feel like it - and to tell you the truth on top of that, when we did “do it,” it left me feeling strangely empty, as she would mostly close her eyes and seemed focused on her own bodily pleasure, and not so much on me - when she was done she was done - it was always when she wanted it and on her terms, mainly for her pleasure. For me to ask for anything different was considered selfish.

It helps to write about this, as of course I never discuss this with anyone -

As far as alcohol, I understand now why people “take to the bottle” to cope with things - I don’t drink much, but I have chilled with some wine after she has gone to bed and it helps somehow -

—john
 
johndelacruz said:
She is unreasonably paranoid about getting pregnant - the few instances when we “make out” she won’t let “me” get near “her” at all - she feels that even if she is just about to have her period, she thinks it is still “possible” to get pregnant, so she doesn’t want to risk it - I remind her that even with a condom, it is still possible to get pregnant, but she doesn’t seem to see that point.

In all actuality, when she was open to having children and having sex, it wasn’t that often - she has always been very finicky, the planets and all their moons had to converge just right for her to feel like it - and to tell you the truth on top of that, when we did “do it,” it left me feeling strangely empty, as she would mostly close her eyes and seemed focused on her own bodily pleasure, and not so much on me - when she was done she was done - it was always when she wanted it and on her terms, mainly for her pleasure. For me to ask for anything different was considered selfish.

It helps to write about this, as of course I never discuss this with anyone -

As far as alcohol, I understand now why people “take to the bottle” to cope with things - I don’t drink much, but I have chilled with some wine after she has gone to bed and it helps somehow -

—john
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I didn’t mean to use alcohol to comfort yourself. Ever heard the country song “Tequila makes her clothes fall off”?
 
white_sheep said:
I didn’t mean to use alcohol to comfort yourself. Ever heard the country song “Tequila makes her clothes fall off”?
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oh, I see : )

no, that wouldn’t work - she will hardly take a sip of alcohol, and if she drank more it would likely only make her go to sleep

plus, she would accuse me later of taking advantage of her

I was informed last night that she is mad at me because I sent her the aforementioned email about “how it is her duty” to have sex with me.

It’s not like I’m demanding it daily or weekly, I’m not demanding it at all - just pointing out that no sex for months on end is not good for me or us.

I was reading something else, I think it was Dr. Laura, who considers intentionally withholding sex from one’s spouse for unreasonable periods of time a form of infidelity, “infidelity by omission” - When one gets married, one promises to love and care for one’s spouse, and a sexual life is implicit in getting married. To intentionally starve one’s spouse sexually, to refuse to meet a well-established need that only you can meet, is cruel, and is a form of being unfaithful to the marriage vows.

—john
 
John,

I know you’re living in a tinderbox, but have you discussed with her from an objective standpoint the success rates of various forms of birth control?

eg if you look at secular resources (eg simply try wikipedia for starters) the failure rate for condom use is listed at 2% for perfect use and 10-18% for typical use. That is, a couple who use condoms (in the typical manner) for contraception will on average have a 10-18% chance of pregnancy per year.

For someone desperate to avoid pregnancy, it’s a bad option! And that’s from a purely secular perspective.

She seems closed to NFP of course, but a very strict approach to NFP, where a couple only has sex once ovulation is confirmed, is about as good as it gets for avoiding pregnancy. Quite simply, once an egg is released, it will die within a day (maybe two as an absolute max or to allow for a possible double ovulation) and after that until menstration, there is 0% chance of pregnancy. There’s still a chance of getting pregnant if you get the timing of the ovulation wrong, which when charting temps can be affected by colds/flu for example, but in a cycle where you are confident that ovulation has occured, you are fine. The challenge of course is to convince her of this.

The other thought I had is that you say she converted to the faith, but have you considered that perhaps she didn’t really want to, or wasn’t ready for all that it meant, eg teachings on contraception? It is commendable that you will not use contraception, but perhaps she feels somewhat that your views are forced on her? I’m just thinking out aloud here…

I really feel for you John and will offer some prayers.
 
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