Celibate & Married (NFP)

[johndelacruz]

I’ve been reading how often “average” married couples have relations - turns out about 2-3 times a week. That was unheard of even during our best times. No wonder I have felt something missing all these years, a generalized aching unsatisfied feeling about our relationship, no matter what I did.

I have been aware of certain ebbs and flows within myself, where sometimes I will notice other girls, at work for instance, who normally wouldn’t even be the least attractive to me. If they happen to smile and be friendly, I am drawn to them so much. Basically, I recognize a hunger within myself, for positive female attention and intimacy - very dangerous! I do keep it in check, but I recognize that it is there, wishing it wasn’t, wishing I was “fed” at home where I need to be.

john

 

[WingsOfEagles]

I’ve been reading how often “average” married couples have relations - turns out about 2-3 times a week. That was unheard of even during our best times. No wonder I have felt something missing all these years, a generalized aching unsatisfied feeling about our relationship, no matter what I did.

I have been aware of certain ebbs and flows within myself, where sometimes I will notice other girls, at work for instance, who normally wouldn’t even be the least attractive to me. If they happen to smile and be friendly, I am drawn to them so much. Basically, I recognize a hunger within myself, for positive female attention and intimacy - very dangerous! I do keep it in check, but I recognize that it is there, wishing it wasn’t, wishing I was “fed” at home where I need to be.

john

It sounds like you are coping with things very well. In many ways, she is causing you to live the life of a single, lonely man, so it’s no wonder that you have to suppress feelings of attraction for other women.

 

[Groo]

I’ve been reading how often “average” married couples have relations - turns out about 2-3 times a week. That was unheard of even during our best times. No wonder I have felt something missing all these years, a generalized aching unsatisfied feeling about our relationship, no matter what I did.

I have been aware of certain ebbs and flows within myself, where sometimes I will notice other girls, at work for instance, who normally wouldn’t even be the least attractive to me. If they happen to smile and be friendly, I am drawn to them so much. Basically, I recognize a hunger within myself, for positive female attention and intimacy - very dangerous! I do keep it in check, but I recognize that it is there, wishing it wasn’t, wishing I was “fed” at home where I need to be.

john

Hang in there. You’re doing great

 

[1inICXC]

I’ve been reading how often “average” married couples have relations - turns out about 2-3 times a week. That was unheard of even during our best times. No wonder I have felt something missing all these years, a generalized aching unsatisfied feeling about our relationship, no matter what I did.

I have been aware of certain ebbs and flows within myself, where sometimes I will notice other girls, at work for instance, who normally wouldn’t even be the least attractive to me. If they happen to smile and be friendly, I am drawn to them so much. Basically, I recognize a hunger within myself, for positive female attention and intimacy - very dangerous! I do keep it in check, but I recognize that it is there, wishing it wasn’t, wishing I was “fed” at home where I need to be.

john

John, my question is, seeing as physical intimacy is the renewal of the marital vows and a deep expression of love, would you truly be able to engage in that with your wife? The picture you painted of her on here seems so monstrous that I wouldn’t want to be within 100 miles radius of such a person, let alone in the same bed. I hope this question doesn’t come across as insensitive. I truly wonder what sense of love and joy one can find being intimate with a person who seems to have no respect, let alone love for you…and likewise for your children.

Perhaps love making may help your issues but if it’s all a lie, it might aggravate them further.

 

[johndelacruz]

thanks for the encouraging words -

…she is causing you to live the life of a single, lonely man, so it’s no wonder that you have to suppress feelings of attraction for other women.

that’s how I feel much of the time, but a “single, lonely man” can do something about it, whether it be find a suitable mate or pursue a true monastic vocation - I can do neither

 

[johndelacruz]

John, my question is, seeing as physical intimacy is the renewal of the marital vows and a deep expression of love, would you truly be able to engage in that with your wife? The picture you painted of her on here seems so monstrous that I wouldn’t want to be within 100 miles radius of such a person, let alone in the same bed. I hope this question doesn’t come across as insensitive. I truly wonder what sense of love and joy one can find being intimate with a person who seems to have no respect, let alone love for you…and likewise for your children.

Perhaps love making may help your issues but if it’s all a lie, it might aggravate them further.

Well, I will be charitable and temper the “monstrous” picture of her - she is not always thorns and prickles, but it is the majority of the time. The rest of the time, I honestly wait for the horribel side to come out, and it always does eventually, whether I “walk on eggshells” or not. It is therefore to truly relax and enjoy the good times.

I don’t feel “romantic” towards her, if that is what you mean (see my other thread: “fallen out of love with wife”

It does take some effort to be romantic with her, like on anniversaries, but I do put for the effort, although I feel like I am play-acting, being fake - I find it fairly easy to be calm and kind to someone, anyone, no matter how wretched they treat me, it’s just my temperment maybe - but it is terribly difficult to be romantic towards someone when the real feelings aren’t there - they were there, and I know that superficial “feelings” wane over time, but she has killed the romance and loving regard by the repeated episodes of shrieking, disrespect, cursing, demeaning stuff she has thrown at me for 13 almost 14 years. It has taken heroic virtue from the grace of God to remain under the same roof with her at times.

As you can tell, my patience has worn thin of late with it all, and I am a smart person - usually I can figure out a sensible way out of any problem - but this is truly perplexing. However, one way or another something has to change - I have been praying to God, really on behalf of our young children who have been exposed to all this, that He either: 1) change her and make her a better wife and mother or 2) if she won’t change, get her out of my children’s lives. That sounds bad, but at times I see the look on their faces when she goes off and realize I must do something - yes, I don’t get the intimacy or respect (or home cooking) I desire, but their tender natures are hurt far more deeply by a mother who scares them, or neglects them by zoning out in front of a laptop - I am really hoping option 1 becomes a reality, not 2.

I’ve venting again, thanks for letting me - and keep praying, I pray for you all too
—john

 

[mamaslo]

Hmmm…why are the kids around her in a bad environment? are they in counselling? are you in counselling? Why are you left feeling powerless to help your children?

just sincere questions.

peace.

 

[johndelacruz]

Hmmm…why are the kids around her in a bad environment? are they in counselling? are you in counselling? Why are you left feeling powerless to help your children?

just sincere questions.

peace.

The children are 4 and 7 and not in counseling, neither am I - she goes quarterly to the psychiatrist to get her Zoloft, which has helped

I appreciate your sincere questions, I’d be asking the same - however, living in this is different than looking in. It is not a “bad environment” all the time. It comes and goes, with a few huge verbal blowups from her in a month. It is low-grade stuff usually, and a general slackness regarding the domestic issues such as cooking and cleaning, which fall generally to me although I work during the day - childcare duties fall to me too when I am home on weekends and evenings too. I don’t see them as duties, because I love them and care for their needs - I also think the children and I have bonded in stronger ways because she has shifted some of her motherly duties onto me over the years. They call for me in the night, come over to my side of the bed in the morning, want me to hold them in church, not her etc. They also tell me they think she is mean, when it is just the 3 of us. I defend her, and we pray for her.

She can be very loving towards them too, like I said it goes in cycles - no one is bad all the time

Bottomline, are the bad times bad enough to move out to protect the children? no

I never said I felt powerless - however, I have to temper a powerful response with prudence and charity, which is what I am currently deliberating.

 

[WingsOfEagles]

The children are 4 and 7 and not in counseling, neither am I - she goes quarterly to the psychiatrist to get her Zoloft, which has helped

I appreciate your sincere questions, I’d be asking the same - however, living in this is different than looking in. It is not a “bad environment” all the time. It comes and goes, with a few huge verbal blowups from her in a month. It is low-grade stuff usually, and a general slackness regarding the domestic issues such as cooking and cleaning, which fall generally to me although I work during the day - childcare duties fall to me too when I am home on weekends and evenings too. I don’t see them as duties, because I love them and care for their needs - I also think the children and I have bonded in stronger ways because she has shifted some of her motherly duties onto me over the years. They call for me in the night, come over to my side of the bed in the morning, want me to hold them in church, not her etc. They also tell me they think she is mean, when it is just the 3 of us. I defend her, and we pray for her.

She can be very loving towards them too, like I said it goes in cycles - no one is bad all the time

Bottomline, are the bad times bad enough to move out to protect the children? no

I never said I felt powerless - however, I have to temper a powerful response with prudence and charity, which is what I am currently deliberating.

Children 7 and under don’t think of their mothers as mean unless things are pretty bad…

 

[johndelacruz]

Children 7 and under don’t think of their mothers as mean unless things are pretty bad…

I agree with that - it is pretty sad

 

[johndelacruz]

Please please pray for me - you see my back story through the opening post in this thread -

Over the past few days I’ve passed through horrible and violent temptations to adultery, basically to find some extramarital casual outlet since my wife is closed to me sexually - it’s amazing how a “devout” daily Mass going Catholic could ever consider committing mortal sin with eyes wide open, but I now see that it is entirely possible - our enemy is crafty - I know how easy it is to find such casual encounters locally, and I even set my curious feet upon the path by visiting websites geared to that very end, heedless of consequences - but I now know firsthand that God loves me more than I love myself, and His grace pulled me back, and filled me with a disgust and fear of this - although my flesh intensely regrets not being able to go forward with such plans - there is an inward sadness still - but my spirit is still healthy, and it is NOT because I pray the daily office, or attend daily Mass, or have chosen God over the world and the flesh, it is only because God in His Mercy has saved me from myself - I have seen myself, and I am wicked -

In my desperation over the weekend, I emailed my wife (she’s often on the computer as I said before), subject line"help": my email read “I’m starving for sex, wasting away, dying…” she wrote back for me to “buy condoms” - in my weakness, I considered doing that…and looked intently at whether it is indeed a mortal sin - but everything I found confirmed that it is a mortal sin - I did not consent to that - and the awful truth of my flesh is that if I am going to consent to mortal sin, I would rather go with the initial plan and have some s-x on the side nearly daily with another/other girl(s), my wife consented to sex very infrequently even when we were sexually active - but no…that would be the end of everything, death in so many ways - sweet poison -
I rolled around the last option, masturbation, to at least avoid these other options and stave off this intense hunger, but alas, after looking at that, again Church teaching is that it too is a Mortal Sin -

So…instead, I threw myself on my face in front of the tabernacle (I have thankfully been given 24/7 access to the nearby parish), my mouth on the carpet, at 2am - He has given me so many graces, how could I ever consider straying? but His hand has held me steady, though on the very brink of disaster…

A few weeks ago, I sincerly begged him to do what it takes, no matter how painful, to make me a great saint - I guess this is part of that, such severe and frightful temptations - I see now why He doesn’t draw us close to himself all at once, and make us great saints in a short time - it would literally destroy us - the intensity of trial, self-knowledge, and temptation required to become a great saint would cause those who are not prepared and sufficiently strong to fall away…

He presents me with a choice - to become a great saint, or go to Hell forever, there is no middle ground anymore

I spent some time reading the catechism on the effects of mortal sin, and adultery, stuff I already know, but I needed to have it fresh in my mind - also read St. Ignatius’ meditations on Mortal Sin and Hell in his Spiritual Exercises - sobering sobering material, needed that too - I think I’m ok now, humbler, more reliant on God, less on myself - yes, still starving for sex, but it’s an opportunity for virtue, heroic virtue even - God be praised!

Like I said, please pray for me…I’m on my way to Confession, and to hopefully leave this behind and move on towards Our Lord -

john

 

[bsroufek]

My wife did the same thing to me, except that she did do housework. After about five years without sex, I found myself tempted by a woman. The guilt overwhelmed me.

Consequently, I confronted my wife and said that I needed to have a sexual relationship with her. She responded that she would NEVER have sex with me again–no reasons given, just a fact. The thought came to my head that I couldn’t deal with being tempted any more and I asked for a divorce and left. We’ve been divorced for quite a few years now.

I regret that I am psychologically too weak to be with a woman, a wife, and not have relations with her year in and year out, even though we have a son and I want to be a father to him.

So, I commend you for continuing to bear your cross and for taking care of the kids and cooking dinner besides working. May you be given a special glory in Heaven.

I pray that you won’t fall prey to resentment.

 

[Groo]

A mortal sin assumes complete consent. Sexual intimacy is a joint decision, not an individual one. If your wife absolutely refuses sex without a condom, then I don’t see how your using a condom in marital intimacy is “complete consent” on your part.

I’ve talked to a number of priests about this for my marriage, as my wife has a similar stand (though for different reasons). Given a binary choice between using a condom and no sex at all, none of the priests told me to unilaterally withhold sexual intimacy from my marriage.

Regardless of whether you agree with my above statements, I don’t think it’s wise to make some of the decisions you are making all on your own. For one thing, you are in such pain that you probably aren’t thinking clearly. Secondly, it’s a good thing to read the Bible, the Catechism, and works from the saints, but we need the help of the Church to interpret the written words. It seems unnecessary to go through all of this pain alone when God provided a Church to help us - Church as in other people, not just prayer and sacraments.

Do you have recourse to a priest or spiritual director to individually counsel you? Make it clear that your choice is a binary one between condoms and no sex at all. I can’t imagine many priests would tell you to withhold intimacy completely, but I could be wrong.

 

[bsroufek]

Using condoms is condemned by the Church. My wife tried to insist on it, but at least that I was able to avoid, thank God.

She’s basically tempting you, through deprivation, to sin. That’s evil. Don’t succomb.

 

[The_Bucket]

Do you have recourse to a priest or spiritual director to individually counsel you? Make it clear that your choice is a binary one between condoms and no sex at all. I can’t imagine many priests would tell you to withhold intimacy completely, but I could be wrong.

I have absolutely no idea what a priest would say to him either. It seems like imperfect consent at best but I don’t know.

That said, outside of basic biology… I have no idea why anyone would want to have sex with a woman who is disgustingly cold. I also find it, well, unlikely, that she’s actually completely turned off when it comes to sex. Especially given the fits of rage. I don’t know if that’s something that’s been explored elsewhere in this thread or outside of it, but crazy fits of rage and passive-aggressive behavior sounds a lot like something besides anxiety over pregnancy.

 

[johndelacruz]

Do you have recourse to a priest or spiritual director to individually counsel you? Make it clear that your choice is a binary one between condoms and no sex at all. I can’t imagine many priests would tell you to withhold intimacy completely, but I could be wrong.

I hate to be blunt, but you are wrong. I have spoken with several good and faithful and holy priests, and the answer is always the same; I cannot consent to using a condom, it would be a mortal sin and a grave sin against the institution of marriage and God’s Will. Believe me, if there was any licit wiggle room I would use it.

The Church is very clear on the part a faithful spouse needs to play when the other spouse, the teaching is in Canon Law, but I cannot find the reference - I’ve read it numerous times though:

In the case of one spouse not accepting the Church’s teaching on contraception and the other spouse wishing to be faithful to the Church, the faithful spouse may cooperate in using the privileges of marriage with the other spouse provided that 1. the faithful spouse is not doing anything himself or herself to contracept—only the other spouse is; and 2. the faithful spouse, at least from time to time, tries to persuade the other one to see the wisdom and truth of the Church’s teaching.

There is no loophole in Church teaching, where the faithful Catholic can consent to using contraception because the other unfaithful Catholic spouse wants to. You may find individual Catholics and even priests who have other personal “pastoral” and lax ideas on the matter, but that is not the Church’s teaching. I am fully knowledgable of the Church’s teaching (and the good reasons behind it) and will be judged on what I know.

I thought this thread had moved beyond arguing about personal opinion on the matter vs. authentic Church teaching.

 

[johndelacruz]

Using condoms is condemned by the Church. My wife tried to insist on it, but at least that I was able to avoid, thank God.

She’s basically tempting you, through deprivation, to sin. That’s evil. Don’t succomb.

Thanks for the encouragement - I will pray be praying for you brother

I went to Confession a couple hours ago, poured it all out to a good and holy Dominican friar - he was very understanding and supportive, we thanked God together for His Mercy in not allowing me to fall into this sin. (Incidentally he affirmed what I already knew, that for me to use a condom with my wife would be a mortal sin.) He said there are no easy answers, but he will be praying for us too.
After Confession and Mass, I feel better, strengthened, more like myself, on track again - I had asked God to snap me out of this (the subtle almost subconcious planning to arrange extramarital casual encounters) - He is merciful and now I’m back to the land of the living and reality, still on the spiritual road, hopefully a bit more wary of myself and my frailty.

 

[johndelacruz]

I hate to be blunt, but you are wrong. I have spoken with several good and faithful and holy priests, and the answer is always the same; I cannot consent to using a condom, it would be a mortal sin and a grave sin against the institution of marriage and God’s Will. Believe me, if there was any licit wiggle room I would use it.

The Church is very clear on the part a faithful spouse needs to play when the other spouse is not abiding by Church teaching, I believe the teaching is in Canon Law, or some sort of Pastoral Considerations, but I cannot find the reference - I’ve read it numerous times though:

In the case of one spouse not accepting the Church’s teaching on contraception and the other spouse wishing to be faithful to the Church, the faithful spouse may cooperate in using the privileges of marriage with the other spouse provided that 1. the faithful spouse is not doing anything himself or herself to contracept—only the other spouse is; and 2. the faithful spouse, at least from time to time, tries to persuade the other one to see the wisdom and truth of the Church’s teaching.

There is no loophole in Church teaching, in which the faithful Catholic can consent to using contraception because the other unfaithful Catholic spouse wants to. You may find individual Catholics and even priests who have other personal “pastoral” and lax ideas on the matter, but that is not the Church’s teaching. I am fully knowledgable of the Church’s teaching (and the good reasons behind it) and I will be judged on what I know.

I thought this thread had moved beyond arguing about personal opinion on the matter vs. authentic Church teaching.

 

[johndelacruz]

My wife did the same thing to me, except that she did do housework. After about five years without sex, I found myself tempted by a woman. The guilt overwhelmed me.

Consequently, I confronted my wife and said that I needed to have a sexual relationship with her. She responded that she would NEVER have sex with me again–no reasons given, just a fact. The thought came to my head that I couldn’t deal with being tempted any more and I asked for a divorce and left. We’ve been divorced for quite a few years now.

I regret that I am psychologically too weak to be with a woman, a wife, and not have relations with her year in and year out, even though we have a son and I want to be a father to him.

So, I commend you for continuing to bear your cross and for taking care of the kids and cooking dinner besides working. May you be given a special glory in Heaven.

I pray that you won’t fall prey to resentment.

thanks so much - God bless you as you find your way
You are right, resentment is a real danger, and also just being quiet and withdrawn from her - she has no idea of how this affects me. I thought maybe my little email the other night would give her and inkling, but she went to bed without speaking with me about it…

 

[Groo]

I hate to be blunt, but you are wrong. I have spoken with several good and faithful and holy priests, and the answer is always the same; I cannot consent to using a condom, it would be a mortal sin and a grave sin against the institution of marriage and God’s Will. Believe me, if there was any licit wiggle room I would use it.

The Church is very clear on the part a faithful spouse needs to play when the other spouse, the teaching is in Canon Law, but I cannot find the reference - I’ve read it numerous times though:

In the case of one spouse not accepting the Church’s teaching on contraception and the other spouse wishing to be faithful to the Church, the faithful spouse may cooperate in using the privileges of marriage with the other spouse provided that 1. the faithful spouse is not doing anything himself or herself to contracept—only the other spouse is; and 2. the faithful spouse, at least from time to time, tries to persuade the other one to see the wisdom and truth of the Church’s teaching.

There is no loophole in Church teaching, where the faithful Catholic can consent to using contraception because the other unfaithful Catholic spouse wants to. You may find individual Catholics and even priests who have other personal “pastoral” and lax ideas on the matter, but that is not the Church’s teaching. I am fully knowledgable of the Church’s teaching (and the good reasons behind it) and will be judged on what I know.

I thought this thread had moved beyond arguing about personal opinion on the matter vs. authentic Church teaching.

Sheesh, I was only trying to help.

Regarding your email to your wife, I think you can rest assured that she knows exactly how this all affects you. If you talk to her with the same condescending, holier-than-thou tone that you addressed me, then I am not surprised that you are making little progress with her.