Centering Prayer at my parish

[AlanFromWichita]

beng:

Are you having one of those leftover teenage rebellius attitude? “I’ll jump to the cliff just because you said not to” meantality?

That’s a fair question, as I suppose it could look like that from your point of view.

Of course, by “rebellious” there is a slight connotation that I am “rebelling” against authority as if I considered you as having authority over me so I’m “getting away” with something here. If I look at you as a brother and friend, then I am free to take your advice and act on it or not depending on what credibility I assign it and whether I find it important to appease you.

Actually it was the compelling nature of the Cloud of the Unknowing that drew me back in. The article you kept insisting I read asserted that CP is in violation of the Cloud’s advice – clearly not what I had remembered from the Cloud. Therefore I got out the Cloud and went through it enough to find the quoted part, in chapter 39 I think (maybe it was 34) so that I could find context. By that time the Cloud had hooked me and I was all excited about contemplation again, and since CP is where I learned much of what I knew about contemplation, and it was Wednesday, and I had a chance to go because my son got sick and didn’t need to go to scouts, I took the chance to go pray.

That said, since I know you want to hear a confession out of me, I’ll grant your wish. Here it is. I did feel some juvenile satisfaction in telling you about it, even though I could easily had covered for it by claiming that I was honestly warning you as a beloved brother that your style of arguing drives me and perhaps others farther away from your side than toward it.

Peace!

Alan

 

[AlanFromWichita]

mhansen:

No, I came back for another dose of your immense Christian Love. I didn’t have to wait long, I see.

Dear Mike,

I know what you mean. You may not have read in a post above that our CO representative has cautioned me against “attaching” myself to defending CP, in deference to letting the Holy Spirit handle it.

On the other hand, there is something kind of charming about beng and something compelling about this thread that draws me to it like a fly on trash.

On the other hand, when the CO rep told me I should not defend CP, I first accused him of spoiling my fun and asked, “how’s a faithless guy like me supposed to get any carnal fun?” Then when I decided to go to the meeting, and told him that my forum arguments had driven me defensively into the Cloud and that the Cloud got me to the meeting, he said, “God is in all things.”

At this point I expect if there were any credible witnesses against CP to come forward they would have by now, so I’m not expecting anything to “deprogram” me from CP or the contemplative mindset. That said, I am learning even as we go along to be more tolerant and loving, and I hope that not only shows in my posts, but that God can put some purpose to this thread I am so drawn to. I don’t expect any of my arguments can convince beng that CP is not evil, or even that he has no case against it, but I just do what I’m drawn to do and let the Spirit take care of the rest.

I’m sure you saw that the original poster backed out of this thread. I’d like to hear from others if this thread is beneficial in any way; otherwise I kind of halfway expect the moderators to shut it down unceremoniously at any time. I hope not, though, because I just feel there is some greater cause here than “us v. beng.”

Alan

 

[mhansen]

Dear Alan,

I agree with everything you just said. I don’t like these forums specifically for the reason that I have to be careful that I don’t lose my peace. I know the benefits of CP and contemplative prayer firsthand, and I, too, will not leave it, no matter what is said here.

That being said, I did learn one thing. When I first started on this thread, I thought everyone was called to contemplation. I realize I am probably wrong on that, as people that aren’t willing to open themselves up to it will never pray in that way. Nobody has to, I just figured everyone would want to, considering the spiritual benefits. Again, it appears I’m wrong.

I find it interesting to note that St. Teresa of Avila herself was concerned about contemplative prayer at one point. To make a long story short, a great many people were against her form of prayer. She herself went up against the Inquistion. She was never found guilty, but it led her to wonder whether the things she experienced were coming from the devil or from God. In the end, she realized they were coming from God. I’m glad she did, as we would have lost a great many of her works had she not.

I guess contemplative prayer has to be experienced, truly experienced, before one can see that it does come from God. And that experience has to have as its foundation the desire for union with God, and the love of God as its reason to continue. Contemplative prayer entered for any other reason (for consolations, visions, locutions, etc.) is contemplative prayer that is done for the wrong reasons. No amount of quoting from established contemplative works will make one see the light. It has to be experienced, pure and simple. By the same token, no amount of contemplative bashing will make me leave it. So, I guess this thread will ultimately go nowhere.

Thanks for your help and support, Alan. I wish you the best in your contemplative journey. Peace to everyone out there. May God bless us all.

Peace,
Mike

 

[AlanFromWichita]

mhansen:

I don’t like these forums specifically for the reason that I have to be careful that I don’t lose my peace.

Dear Mike,

I agree with everything you just said, except that I have come to appreciate these forums for the exact reason that they have tested my peace. Sometimes when I am not at peace it shows in my writing before I even notice it consciously. That plus we have the magnifying (and sometimes distorting) mirrors that immediately reflect any hint of attitude back at us. It would seem that these forums are of spiritual therapeutic value, in that they can be used as tools for testing and purifying us. For the same reason, I no longer have a problem with posts with very aggressive language. Hopefully I can give back to others on this forum even a fraction of benefits I have received from it.

Alan

 

[mtr01]

Just a quick question because I haven’t seen it explained (as far as I can tell), but in centering prayer, what exactly is one centering, or centering on?

 

[AlanFromWichita]

mtr01:

Just a quick question because I haven’t seen it explained (as far as I can tell), but in centering prayer, what exactly is one centering, or centering on?

Good question. I probably used to know that.

For some reason I’ve been thinking it has to do with being “centered” between extremes, or in other words in moderation. The Cloud of the Unknowing says that in everything except contemplation a person ought to be moderate (ch 40) and that by having no moderation in contemplation a man will arrive at perfect moderation in everything else. (ch 41).

That might be totally wrong. I’ll see if I can find out for you.

Alan

 

[mhansen]

Actually, the term has its origins in Thomas Merton. He used the word “center” as the Early Church Fathers (and others) used “spirit” or “heart” or other words to that effect. Merton spoke of “going to one’s center and passing through that center into the center of God.” So, to sum it up, “center” is a synonym for “heart”, in the spiritual sense. I hope that helps.

Peace,
Mike

 

[AlanFromWichita]

mtr01:

Just a quick question because I haven’t seen it explained (as far as I can tell), but in centering prayer, what exactly is one centering, or centering on?

Dear mtr01,

I forwarded your question to our CO rep and got a response a lot closer to what Mike said than what I had guessed:

Dan:

Good question ! Centering is always confusing if you try to “figure it out”. The word center was first used by Thomas Merton when CP was being developed. He said a person seems to pass through their own center into God’s center. The concept, illusion, stuck.

But I think the answer to your question is that in CP we do not concentrate or center on anything. This is very different than concentrating or centering on nothing.

We simply ask, intend, that the Spirit pray in us. We do nothing but drop thoughts [as] we become engaged in them.

Simple, no analysis or understanding required. However, FAITH AND HOPE help a lot.

I hope this helps

God Bless
Your brother in Christ.

Dan

Alan

 

[mtr01]

AlanFromWichita:

Dear mtr01,

I forwarded your question to our CO rep and got a response a lot closer to what Mike said than what I had guessed:

Dan:

Good question ! Centering is always confusing if you try to “figure it out”. The word center was first used by Thomas Merton when CP was being developed. He said a person seems to pass through their own center into God’s center. The concept, illusion, stuck.

But I think the answer to your question is that in CP we do not concentrate or center on anything. This is very different than concentrating or centering on nothing.
**
*We simply ask, intend, that the Spirit pray in us. We do nothing but drop thoughts [as] we become engaged in them. *
**
Simple, no analysis or understanding required. However, FAITH AND HOPE help a lot.
**
*I hope this helps *
**
*God Bless *
Your brother in Christ.

Dan

Alan

Thanks, Alan. That’s reassuring, since given the nature of this discussion I feared I was going to hear something like “centering prayer is centered on the individual” or some such horror. The answer you provided put to rest that fear…although I am a little disappointed the answer wasn’t “it is centered on God”. I’ll admit, I don’t think it is for me, but I at least want to understand more what it is all about in order to make a well-informed decision.

One thing that still troubles me, though, is the issue of “the divinity within ourselves”. Perhaps it’s a semantics issue, but it remains a pretty big stumbling block for me.

Again, thank you and Mike for your answers, and may the peace of Christ be with you.

 

[Exporter]

mhansen http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/statusicon_cad/user_offline.gif vbmenu_register(“postmenu_311704”, true);
Regular Member

You wrote about Teresa of Avila and that she was brought to trial, am I correct? She was a saint, we are not saints like her.

I have a question(s). You said that “centering” brings God into you to pray.

Is God praying to God who is somewhere else? If that is true the YOU aren’t praying…either the Holy Ghost is praying or as you said God is praying.

Catholics for years have said prayer is a communication between his child (us) and God Himself.

If as you say, a Holy Spirit is praying and not you then is that type of prayer effecacatious? Thanks for your answer.

 

[Catholic29]

In light of all these diatribes, I wonder what John Paul II’s position is on CP???

 

[mhansen]

Exporter:

You wrote about Teresa of Avila and that she was brought to trial, am I correct? She was a saint, we are not saints like her.

That’s not true. Paul refers to all believers as saints.

I have a question(s). You said that “centering” brings God into you to pray.

Is God praying to God who is somewhere else? If that is true the YOU aren’t praying…either the Holy Ghost is praying or as you said God is praying.

Catholics for years have said prayer is a communication between his child (us) and God Himself.

If as you say, a Holy Spirit is praying and not you then is that type of prayer effecacatious? Thanks for your answer.

I’m not sure I understand your question. Don’t you believe that God is everywhere? Don’t you agree that we have the Spirit within us? It is written that “the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express. And He who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints in accordance with God’s will.” So, in that sense, yes, the Holy Spirit does pray in us. And that prayer is most certainly efficacious.

Catholics for years have said a lot more about prayer than that it is just “a communication between the child (us) and God Himself.” This is an over-simplification. Catholicism teaches much more than this about prayer. Too much to get into in one post.

Like I said, I’m not sure I understood your question. Hopefully, I answered it.

Peace,
Mike

 

[Michelle_Arnold]

If you can find it in a print version, perhaps through a Catholic university library, I highly recommend “A Closer Look at Centering Prayer” by Margaret A. Feaster, which ran in the October 2004 issue of Homiletic & Pastoral Review.

The basic problem with centering prayer is that it relies on an acquired non-Christian Eastern technique for taking the practitioner within himself. Christian spirituality is interpersonal (i.e., between persons); generally speaking, non-Christian Eastern spirituality focuses the practitioner inward onto the self rather than outward to God and others.

 

[Therese_Martin]

**Notice:

This thread is now closed. Thanks to all who participated in the discussion.**