Centering Prayer at my parish

[AlanFromWichita]

Kaily:

I’m interested in centering my prayers on Christ.

If you aren’t interested in learning more about CP that’s OK.

I know someone who is heavily involved in the new age movement, she belongs to Unity village, in Lee’s Summit, MO. That is the kind of stuff they practice, for ex. they say they empty their minds and meditate on a flame, where is that going to get you? Not closer to God, and that is my only aim, is to become closer to Christ and meditate on His virtues and Passion and life, not on a flame. She is also into the power of the mind, All of that stuff is of the new age movement and the new age movement is not of God, it basically says we are all gods and gives the same lie that satan fed to Eve, you can be god too. So, try meditating on Christ, that is what He desires and contemplation and centering prayer are totally different, contemplation is the prayer of silence, the desire of God, a sigh for God, longing for God at all times and union with God.

I can assure you, there is no meditating on a flame in centering prayer, nor does it have anything to do with the “power of the mind.”

If you are truly interested in deepening your faith, you might consider reading the Cloud of the Unknowing, which is referenced in a positive way in the article you linked to. You can read an excerpt online here at amazon.com. I have read it twice in the past, but inspired by this thread, I started reading it again yesterday; I’d forgotten how wonderful the writing was. There is no controversy, even in this thread, over whether the Cloud is a Catholic or otherwise useful document. There is a translation of the whole book that is public domain, at wordsfree.org/ but it is not in modern English and is much harder to read than the one I linked from amazon.com above.

The articles you sent have some of the same problems as the others I’ve seen. For example, the first one repeats the same criticism that Fr. Dreher made in a THIS ROCK article, taking a sentence from the Cloud of the Unknowing about awakening love and misapplying it to centering prayer. In fact, if you read through the Cloud, and then learn about centering prayer, it will help understand some of the conceptual problems the EWTN articles showed – those articles sounded like they were written by someone who had a mostly academic understanding of contemplation.

As far as the references to Pennington’s articles, I cannot really comment on the context because I know little of Pennington; I am much more familiar with Thomas Keating, an associate of Pennington’s.

If you change your mind and want to know more about CP, contemplation, or the Cloud, just let me know.

Alan

 

[AlanFromWichita]

beng:

Do it via email so we all could read. Better yet, invite him offer. If you want, give the phone number to me and I’ll invite him over to join the discussion.

Dear beng,

Earlier today I sent you the phone number by PM. The PM system is not working right, so it may not have notified you of the new message.

I think it would be great if we could get an email and/or discussion going with him. Perhaps if he agrees to come online, (like he’s probably too busy but here’s wishful thinking) then maybe we should start a new thread that starts with a reference to his article and then I and others asking questions?

Just a suggestion. Handle it as you see fit. I hope you can get through to Fr. Dreher. Even if he can’t come online I’m anxious to hear what you find out.

Alan

 

[beng]

AlanFromWichita:

This is amazing. I was not talking about the fact the somebody else decided not to post, but that your comment was “good riddance.”

Then after that you said, “And I thought you will leave the thread, so please go.”

This type of diplomacy is what I was addressing. Please consider this lesson:
So even if you consider contemplatives as less honorable than yourself, should you really be telling them to go away? How are you going to evangelize with that attitude?

What do you want me to say? Beg him to address me? Even the apostles were told to shake the dust of their sandals.

And as far as good riddance comment, his posts is accusatory. I wouldn’t mind not having him in this thread.

OK, but I was just curious. I had conjectured that you might share on the basis that either your degree was pertinent, or that you didn’t mind sharing information that isn’t pertinent, since you offered, without anybody asking you, that you had an MS degree.

Besides, I was hoping maybe we’d have something in common. I have an M.S. degree too. I’ll tell you mine if you tell me yours.

Alan

Actually the degree came up because people were talking about degree. I just mentioned it casually.

 

[beng]

AlanFromWichita:

The articles you sent have some of the same problems as the others I’ve seen. For example, the first one repeats the same criticism that Fr. Dreher made in a THIS ROCK article, taking a sentence from the Cloud of the Unknowing about awakening love and misapplying it to centering prayer. In fact, if you read through the Cloud, and then learn about centering prayer, it will help understand some of the conceptual problems the EWTN articles showed – those articles sounded like they were written by someone who had a mostly academic understanding of contemplation.

Alan

The way you brushed of every article it seems that you have your own understanding of CP that CP itself doesn’t hold. Ever think of that?

 

[Exporter]

Father G. Amorth of Rome and is working directly under John Paul II has written in one of his books that “centering prayer” as practiced by the vast majority of Catholics is not recommended. Why? He says there wre two kinds of spirits , the good angels and the fallen angels. The fallen angels were thrown out of heaven to the earth. And he says that centering prayer comes from Eastern Religions. It opens the door for any spirit that wants to come in. You never know who will come in. It is akin to leaving you front door open all the time - who will come in?

 

[beng]

Exporter:

Father G. Amorth of Rome and is working directly under John Paul II has written in one of his books that “centering prayer” as practiced by the vast majority of Catholics is not recommended. Why? He says there wre two kinds of spirits , the good angels and the fallen angels. The fallen angels were thrown out of heaven to the earth. And he says that centering prayer comes from Eastern Religions. It opens the door for any spirit that wants to come in. You never know who will come in. It is akin to leaving you front door open all the time - who will come in?

Holy cow. That’s from Gabriel Amorth? He’s the no:1 Excorcist to date.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Exporter:

Father G. Amorth of Rome and is working directly under John Paul II has written in one of his books that “centering prayer” as practiced by the vast majority of Catholics is not recommended. Why? He says there wre two kinds of spirits , the good angels and the fallen angels. The fallen angels were thrown out of heaven to the earth. And he says that centering prayer comes from Eastern Religions. It opens the door for any spirit that wants to come in. You never know who will come in. It is akin to leaving you front door open all the time - who will come in?

Which book? I’m curious to see the context, especially since as far as I can tell the “vast majority of Catholics” have never even heard of centering prayer. If this is a valid criticism of CP as taught by Contemplative Outreach and as modeled after the Cloud, then I would like to take it back to Contemplative Outreach for an opinion.

CO has suggested that I do not get caught up in defending CP, but if there is credible testimony against it that doesn’t mean I can’t bring it to them.

Alan

 

[Teresa9]

Dear friends

A recent writing I have read

‘Not all prayer is really prayer. Much of it is only a preamble to prayer. This is especially true of many Eastern forms or techniques of prayer. They are helpful toward achieveing a certain self-discipline, a peace and a calm of soul, a detachment from creatures, all of which are necessary and prepare the way to prayer. However they are not prayer and may not even lead to prayer since they can stop at the self. Christian prayer is essentially the establishment of a relationship with God, a friendship, an I-Thou relationship based on the reality of who God is and who we are. It consists in knowing God and ourselves ever more perfectly and living in a mutual relation with Him in the light of His knowledge. Hence, prayer is not just knowing and loving, but also living. That is why the reality and the quality of one’s prayer is best known from the way one lives his/her life. ‘You will know them by their fruits’ (Matthew 7:16)’

God Bless you and much love and peace to you

Teresa

 

[Les_Richardson]

AlanFromWichita:

Here’s the technique in a nutshell: sit still, in a comfortable chair, and clear you mind for 20 minutes. That is really it.Alan

Sounds like meditation, non-religious, nothing to do with religion or Christianity or talking to God. Why is it called prayer? I’ve done the same kind of thing in the past as a kind of rest from chaos, but lately I’ve had trouble sparing 20 minutes. I’m the kind of person that feels like every minute, if not actively pursuing some goal, even mentally, is wasted. But that’s me, and I’ll probably die a lot sooner too.

I also do breathing exercises designed to oxygenate the blood. Purely a physical thing, works well. You can feel the heat of the blood in your toes and fingers.

 

[Lisa_N]

A very naive question from a soon to be Catholic. I have taken a CP class (at an Episcopal church several years ago) and I’ve seen Fr. Keating speak and I’ve read some of his books. I tried CP and found it annoying and put me in a bad mood. I just don’t seem to do or shall I say not do this effectively. I prefer something like Lectio Divinia instead.

Could someone explain to me what is the point of “clearing your mind.” I understand the idea of “opening your heart to God” and that was how CP was described. But if you push away thoughts, how do you know that the thought is "a bad thing?’ Maybe it is a small still voice of God trying to communicate?

Why would God want us just to sit, close our eyes and clear our minds? I am not sure how this is supposed to be a way of being in relationship with God. Can someone explain?

I skimmed the thread and did not see this issue addressed but I apologize if someone has explained it. Thank you

Lisa N

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Les Richardson:

Sounds like meditation, non-religious, nothing to do with religion or Christianity or talking to God. Why is it called prayer? I’ve done the same kind of thing in the past as a kind of rest from chaos, but lately I’ve had trouble sparing 20 minutes. I’m the kind of person that feels like every minute, if not actively pursuing some goal, even mentally, is wasted. But that’s me, and I’ll probably die a lot sooner too.

I also do breathing exercises designed to oxygenate the blood. Purely a physical thing, works well. You can feel the heat of the blood in your toes and fingers.

Dear Les,

Yes, You’re right. I guess I have oversimplified it a bit with my quick description. It does involve a desire for God, which is well covered in the literature, as a matter of the will. I guess I just kind of took that part for granted and only described the mechanical part of it; I was trying to show how much of a non-issue it is and ended up trivializing it.

Alan

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Lisa N:

A very naive question from a soon to be Catholic. I have taken a CP class (at an Episcopal church several years ago) and I’ve seen Fr. Keating speak and I’ve read some of his books. I tried CP and found it annoying and put me in a bad mood. I just don’t seem to do or shall I say not do this effectively. I prefer something like Lectio Divinia instead.

That’s not too alarming. Actually I went to our diocese CP/Lectio meeting tonight for the first time in several months and actually found it a bit boring. That’ll happen sometimes.

Could someone explain to me what is the point of “clearing your mind.” I understand the idea of “opening your heart to God” and that was how CP was described. But if you push away thoughts, how do you know that the thought is "a bad thing?’ Maybe it is a small still voice of God trying to communicate?

Why would God want us just to sit, close our eyes and clear our minds? I am not sure how this is supposed to be a way of being in relationship with God. Can someone explain?

I skimmed the thread and did not see this issue addressed but I apologize if someone has explained it. Thank you

That’s a very good question. There is a large amount of literature that describes this, and I’m not sure I can do it justice in a brief answer here but I’ll try anyway. First, if you had the stamina to read Keating’s books, then you just might really enjoy the Cloud of the Unknowing. Although I like watching Keating on video, I never could get through one of his books because I kept falling asleep. The Cloud, however, is so exciting to me I hardly want to put it down. It doesn’t speak to everyone, but it sure does to me and I think it could abundantly provide the answer to your question.

Oh, wow. I was just looking at the Cloud to find answers to your questions and there are like three chapters I’d like to quote you. If you don’t mind I’ll get back to you on it. I’ll just give you the beginning of chapter 8:
Cloud of the Unknowing:

But now you say to me, “How am I to judge these ideas that press in upon me as I pray? Are they good or evil? And if they are evil, I am amazed because they arouse my devotion so much. At times they are a real comfort and even make me weep for sorrow at Christ’s Passion or my own sinfulness. For other reasons, too, I am inclined to believe that these holy meditations do me a great deal of good. So if they are not evil but actually good, I don’t understand why you advise me to abandon them beneath a cloud of forgetting.”

Now these are very good questions and I will try my best to answer them. First of all, you want to know what kind of thoughts they are, pretending to be so helpful. To this I say: these are the clear ideas of natural intelligence which reason conceives in your mind. As to whaether they are good or evil, I must insist that they are always good in themselves, for your intelligence is a reflection of thedivine intelligence. But what you do with them may be either good or evil. Certainly they are good when with God’s grace they help you understand your sinfulness, the Passion of Christ, the kindness of God, or the marvels that he words throughout creation. It is little wonder that such reflections deepen your devotion.

I know that only acknowledges your question but doesn’t answer it, but as I said I have to get my thoughts together and figure out what I can tell you in a finite amount of space.

Thank you for asking. I will find this a pleasant challenge to answer.

Alan

 

[Bob_Baran]

I want to thank everyone for their (name removed by moderator)ut. Nothing more needs to be said about this issue. Thanks again.

 

[Lisa_N]

Alan, thank you for your response and suggestion. I will look for the Cloud of Unknowing. The excerpt you posted does make some sense to me. Thank you again.

Lisa N

 

[beng]

Bob, it has become a creature of it’s own (the thread that is)

Alan, I’m still waiting for the explanation on Human Divinity. This is a full blown heresy.

I’ll try to contact Dreher.

 

[beng]

Oh and to anyone.

It is possible that Cloud of Unknowing is a harmless book in spiritual exercise. But CP is an entirely differnt matter.

So, Alan, I would suggest that you do not make it looks like that CP is totally in conformity with Cloud of Unknowing. That is remain to be seen.

The CP guideline form Thomas Keating itself is very questionable.

 

[mhansen]

beng:

CP violates certain tenets of the Church. There are two I’ve mentioned above. The other is your whole concept of human’s divinity which is against every teaching of the Church. This is the big no no. And you even defended it.

The Church appears to defend it as well. From the CCC:

460 The Word became flesh to make us “partakers of the divine nature. For this is why the Word became man, and the Son of God became the Son of man: so that man, by entering into communion with the Word and thus receiving divine sonship, might become a son of God. For the Son of God became man so that we might become God. The only-begotten Son of God, wanting to make us sharers in his divinity, assumed our nature, so that he, made man, might make men gods.”

I just had surgery and won’t have the use of my left arm for a while, so typing is tough. I’ll leave it at this, and you can think of it what you will.

Peace,
Mike

 

[mhansen]

beng:

Alan, I’m still waiting for the explanation on Human Divinity. This is a full blown heresy.

I’d be more careful of the use of the word “heresy” if I were you. As it shows in my above post, this is most certainly a teaching found in the CCC. Besides, heresy is such an ugly word.

Peace,
Mike

 

[mtr01]

mhansen:

I’d be more careful of the use of the word “heresy” if I were you. As it shows in my above post, this is most certainly a teaching found in the CCC.

Peace,
Mike

True enough, but I think you’re taking it a bit out of context. Check out 2Pet 1:3-11 for the full context of what is meant by “partakers of the divine nature.”

 

[AlanFromWichita]

mhansen:

I’d be more careful of the use of the word “heresy” if I were you. As it shows in my above post, this is most certainly a teaching found in the CCC. Besides, heresy is such an ugly word.

Dear Mike,

Thanks for helping me by finding that passage. I get weary sometimes trying to defend against shotguns with wide scattering patterns.

Since I’ve been on this forum I have become completely desensitized to the words “heresy” and “blasphemy.” It’s kind of a freeing experience; it literally doesn’t hurt a bit to hear it like it did when I first joined the forum.

The next phase is to recognize that I am abundantly blessed when I am called such things when all I am trying to do is convey my honest opinion as an admittedly fallible person.
Matt 5:10-12:

Blessed are they who are persecuted for the sake of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are you when they insult you and persecute you and utter every kind of evil against you (falsely) because of me. Rejoice and be glad, for your reward will be great in heaven. Thus they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

By the way, if you want to check out a simple program I wrote to “personalize” the beatitudes, you can find it at: wordsfree.org/attitude.html

Alan