Centering Prayer at my parish

[beng]

AlanFromWichita:

This is all very nice, but what does it have to do with centering prayer?

That the monks who came up with it were influenced by Eastern religion.

 

[beng]

AlanFromWichita:

What link? I looked at freerepublic.com and saw no immediate sense that it had anything to do with Catholicism.

This link

Heck, I can one-up you. I’ll bet I can find several people on this very forum who have personally experienced Catholicism and think that it’s bad!

Judging something based on others experience was never my point. You were the one who always claimed (like many who involved in a questionable practices) that those who don’t like it just don’t get it or never experienced it. Then I showed you a bunch of comment (from the link above) showing people who have experienced CP and did not like it.

The biggest objection of CP is not whether it’s “likable” or not, but whether it’s right or wrong.

So far the only negative accusations anyone on this thread have leveled about CP are based on false characterizations.

False characterization? You DO use “mantra” as stated in that Thomas Keating’s guideline. And you DO try to fine the “divinity” within you. Fr Dehrer had it right on the money.

You are absolutely right. He may research his stuff and still get it wrong.

But, he’s not is he? Again, you are using mantra, you are using a certain “techniques” (contrary to the Cloud book), and you do look for the “divine” within yourself.

Wouldn’t you like to know? :ehh:

Yes. It owuld only help to show the errors of CP. You probably realize this yourselves, deep within yourselves that is. But you’re already too attach to it. You’ve been telling people that it’s true and you do it yourselves. If suddenly you think that it’s bad than it’s like a slap in the face to yourselves. Many convert experience this and the best way for them is just to be humble to the truth. They lose respect, friends sometime family. But they gain the treasure in Heaven that will never be corrupted (Luk 12:33-34). I suggest you do the same

Technique, yes.
Contrary to Cloud, no.

Maybe I’ll have to read The Cloud again ( ) but last time I read it, CP was completely in conformance with suggestions made by the author.

Well, It seems that having a technique by itself is contrary to Cloud book.

I did see you quote above:
I couldn’t find this quote in the translation I got for free, (I’m not too happy with it so far but I guess it was worth the price) and I can’t find my book right now to read the context. However, the author speaks in a very colorful language, so I can’t exactly say without context. Perhaps techniques and methods are useless, in his view, for awakening contemplative love. Techniques and methods, however, for inviting communication of such love are a different story.

Here’s the technique in a nutshell: sit still, in a comfortable chair, and clear you mind for 20 minutes. That is really it.

It seems that you’re not saying all there isto it here. There are plethora of details mentioned in that Keating Guidelines. Like picking word and then giving it a sacred gaze (that sounds alot like self hypnotizing).

cont below

 

[beng]

Now this business about the “sacred word,” which maybe is an unfortunate term Keating uses leading to its being misrepresented as “mantra.” In order to avoid thoughts that typically race through our minds, like what we have to get from the store, whether the kids will be in bed when we get home, etc, we use a simple word – doesn’t matter what word because in context it has no meaning – to distract us from the wordly thought.

The word is only a tool, and is not to be repeated, and a lot of people get good enough at clearing their mind they hardly have to use the word at all. And, the use of the word is discussed in the Cloud. The only part I can see that the monks made up is the part about where they recommend doing this twice for 20 minutes a day.

That is a never before heard technique in the Catholic Church… And there’s still the sacred gaze and all of the stuff in that Keating’s guideline.

Emptying minds and all. It really looks like self hypnotizing

Contemplative prayer is silence, among other things, as stated in the Catechism (2717). Centering prayer is a way of sitting silently for 20 minutes. There is nothing complicated, no chants, no gurus, no nothing except a wonderful freedom that can feel strange at first to your typical product of society that emphasizes constant noise and active thoughts at all times. It’s a great way to spend some time in Eucharistic adoration.

Alan

If it’s all about sitting silently that is all wells and good. But the philosophy of the teaching of finding the one’s own divinity and the questionable techniques make CP a questionable practice.

 

[beng]

AlanFromWichita:

Have a heart! I’m a slow reader. I ask a simple question “what part of it did you not like” and you give me a whole lengthy essay to read.

I did read part of it, enough to get the idea that it is against interreligious dialog. It is 75 years old, though. I thought we were talking about JPII. Does JPII forbid interreligious dialog?

Inter-religious dialogue is to understand other party better and then try to convert them to Catholicism. The ultimate goal of every dialog with other faith is to get them to embrace Catholicism.

Didn’t I hear something about him kissing the Quran?

What about it?

Why why why do lib… err… “progressive” Catholic always use this incident so we could sleep with the enemy?

Wait a minute, I’ll answer my own question by looking at the Vatican web site. Ah, yes, from the
PONTIFICAL COUNCIL FOR INTER-RELIGIOUS DIALOGUE DIALOGUE AND PROCLAMATION

“It is 25 years since “Nostra Aetate”, the declaration of the Second Vatican Council on the Church’s relationship to other religions, was promulgated. The document stressed the importance of interreligious dialogue. At the same time, it recalled that the Church is in duty bound to proclaim without fail Christ, the Way, the Truth, and the Life, in whom all people find their fulfillment (cf. NA 2).”

Find more from the Pontifical Council for Inter-religious dialogue at: vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/interelg/index.htm

Perhaps I need to repeat the question. Referring to the monks who said they were carrying out the Holy Father’s (this year, not nearly a century ago) plan for interreligous dialogue, which part of it bothers you?

Alan
That they actually BECOME ZEN MASTERS!!! We are to understand them so we could preach to them better. Now it seems that we have embraced their truth!!! A truth that is nothing but falsehood. The element of truth is present in other religion BUT that is only “element” not the FULLNESS of truth. Even more those element of truth comes from the Holy Mother Church because from the Church, which the Passion on The Cross is born, truth abounds in the world. And these people are embracing falsehood rather than clinging to the fullness of truth. That is NOT what inter-religious dialogue is all about. That is the same attitude that make possible the Hindu Worship at a Catholic Shrine in Fatima.

 

[mhansen]

beng:

Inquiring mind wants to know, what are you saying?

He’s saying that boards like these open the door for every Tom, Dick, and Harry to be a Professional Amateur Apologist, no experience required.

 

[beng]

mhansen:

He’s saying that boards like these open the door for every Tom, Dick, and Harry to be a Professional Amateur Apologist, no experience required.

Then it’s an Ad hominem.

It doesn’t matter how much experience one’s have. Deal with the argument.

 

[tru_dvotion]

Father Robert Morin, OMI - Centering Prayer

Father Morin is director of the Oblate Retreat House in Hudson, New Hampshire. Is this what Catholic Contemplation has come to?

 

[tru_dvotion]

From:

---

**Accepting The Embrace of God: The Ancient Art of Lectio Divina By Fr. Luke Dysinger, O.S.B.
**
”THE PROCESS of LECTIO DIVINA

A VERY ANCIENT art, practiced at one time by all Christians, is the technique known as lectio divina - a slow, contemplative praying of the Scriptures which enables the Bible, the Word of God, to become a means of union with God. This ancient practice has been kept alive in the Christian monastic tradition, and is one of the precious treasures of Benedictine monastics and oblates. Together with the Liturgy and daily manual labor, time set aside in a special way for lectio divina enables us to discover in our daily life an underlying spiritual rhythm. Within this rhythm we discover an increasing ability to offer more of ourselves and our relationships to the Father, and to accept the embrace that God is continuously extending to us in the person of his Son Jesus Christ.”

More here:

Lectio Divina: the ancient (Catholic) art of praying the Scriptures.

 

[beng]

Father Robert Morin, OMI - Centering Prayer

Highlights:

A monk named John Cassian traveled to various monasteries in the East, talking to people about their spiritual practice, gaining bits of wisdom. When he returned to his monastery, he taught what is sometimes called “monologistic prayer,” from two Greek words meaning “one word.” What he did was simply teach a phrase from the Psalms: “O God, come to my assistance; O Lord, make haste to help me.” Repeat that continually, he said, and you will be in the presence of God.

That, ladies and gentlemen, is what you called a “mantra”.

As a matter of fact, in Christian tradition, there is nowhere you can be that you are not in the presence of God. I remember a voice in the back of a chapel where I was a seminarian that would say, “Let us place ourselves in the presence of God and adore him.” And I’d think “Where in the heck do you think you’re going to go?” As the Book of Jonah points out, you can’t run away from God, you can only run around in God. We are already enfolded. It’s like the song from the Eagles, Hotel California: “You can check out any time you like, but you can never leave.”

Duh, we know that God is everywhere. But the thing is He is presence in a more special way IN THE EUCHARIST!

In Zen, “clear mind, clear mind, clear mind: don’t know.” In Christianity, “O God, come to my assistance, O Lord, make haste to help me.”

Ymm, sorry father, but since I’m a humble being and utterly incapable without God I would rather ask Him devoutly to come to me.

Hmmm, New Hampshire. That’s the state that turn from red to blue this election right? Interesting.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

You guys have done me a great favor. I have found my copy of the books The Cloud of the Unknowing and The Book of Privy Counseling and spent much of the free moments I’ve had today reading it. One thing I haven’t mentioned is that I have not been going to centering prayer meetings or, for that matter, doing it at home now for over a year. This book is so exciting to me it just completely renews my calling to a contemplative lifestyle and mentality. It is so simple, so beautiful and so obvious, it boggles my mind how many people consider contemplative work as dangerous or spooky.

From The Book of Privy Counseling (by the author of the Cloud):

It is not hard to master this way of thinking, I am certain that even the most uneducated man or woman, accustomed to a very primitive type of life, can easily learn it. Sometimes I smile to myself (though not without a touch of sadness), and marvel at those who claim that I write to you and others a complicated, difficult, lofty, and strange doctrine, intelligible to only a few clever and highly trained minds. It is not simple, uneducated folk who say this either; it is scholars and leaned theologians. To these people in particular I want to reply.

It is a great pity and a sad commentary on the state of those supposedly committed to God that, in our day, not just a few people but nearly everyone (excepting one or two of God’s special friends, here and there) is so blinded by a mad scramble for the latest theology or discoveries in the natural sciences that they cannot begin to understand the true nature of this simple practice; a practice so simple that even the most uneducated peasant may easily find in it a way to real union with God in the sweet simplicity of perfect love. Unfortunately, these sophisticated people are no more capable of understanding this truth in sincerity of heart than a child at his ABCs is able to understand the intricacies of erudite theologians. Yet, in their blindness, they insist on calling such a simple exercise deep and subtle; whereas, if they examined it rationally, they would discover it to be as clear and plain as the lesson of a beginner.

 

[tru_dvotion]

Dear Alan,

Please don’t take this the wrong way, but your dedication to Centering prayer is explained in your own signature, which by the way I just noticed:

“Note: My opinions are my own and may not reflect official teachings or practices of the Church.”

What can I say… what can anyone say to that? God bless.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

On the importance of contemplative work:

From The Cloud of the Unknowing, chapter 3:

This is what you are to do: lift your heart up to the Lord, with a gentle stirring of love desiring him for his own sake and not for his gifts. Center all your attention and desire on him and let this be the sole concern of your mind and heart. Do all in your power to forget everything else, keeping your thoughts and desires free from involvement with any of God’s creatures or their affairs whether in general or in particular. Perhaps this will seem like an irresponsible attitude, but I tell you, let them all be; pay no attention to them.

What I am describing here is the contemplative work of the spirit. It is this which gives God the greatest delight. For when you fix your love on him, forgetting all else, the saints and angels rejoice and hasten to assist you in every way – though the devils will rage and ceaselessly conspire to thwart you. Your fellow men are marvelously enriched by this work of yours, even if you may not fully understand how; the souls in purgatory are touched, for their suffering is eased by the effects of this work; and, of course, your own spirit is purified and strengthened by this contemplative work more than by all others put together. Yet for all this, when God’s grace arouses you to enthusiasm, it becomes the lightest sort of work there is and one most willingly done. Without his grace, however, it is very difficult and almost, I should say, quite beyond you.

And so diligently persevere until you feel joy in it. For in the beginning it is usual to feel nothing but a kind of darkness about your mind, or as it were, a cloud of unknowing. You will seem to know nothing and to feel nothing except a naked intent toward God in the depths of your being. Try as you might, this darkness and this cloud will remain between you and your God. You will feel frustrated, for your mind will be unable to grasp him, and your heart will not relish the delight of his love. But learn to be at home in this darkness. Return to it as often as you can, letting your spirit cry out to him whom you love. For if, in this life, you hope to feel and see God as he is in himself it must be withing this darkness and this cloud. But if you strive to fix your love on him forgetting all else, which is the work of contemplation I have urged you to begin, I am confident that God in his goodness will bring you to a deep experience of himself.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

tru_dvotion:

Please don’t take this the wrong way, but your dedication to Centering prayer is explained in your own signature, which by the way I just noticed:

“Note: My opinions are my own and may not reflect official teachings or practices of the Church.”

What can I say… what can anyone say to that? God bless.

I’m glad you noticed my signature because I do not claim to speak as a church authority. I put it there when I was venting my problems with certain teachings that the Church purportedly held, but I left it there because I still don’t claim to speak for the church. As far as centering prayer, I am not certified by Contemplative Outreach to teach it, but I am more familiar with it than with most other Church traditions, and have written articles about it for our diocesan newspapers. My wife went on a weeklong centering prayer retreat along with about two dozen nuns, among others. It is not some fringe movement. If I find some actual criticism of CP I will immediately forward it to Contemplative Outreach to hear how they respond, but so far nothing I’ve heard is anything but vague innuendos, such as “there’s a single word prayer used so it must be a mantra” and “the monks who developed it conversed with eastern religions” as if they are somehow polluted for talking to the human scum and now incapable of serving the Catholic Church.

Do you presume to speak for the Church in condemning CP? The article that beng has been using tirelessly to indict CP by Fr. Dreher clearly shows a gap in demonstrated knowledge of CP at best; even I in my limited knowledge of the Church knows that. I would like to hear from Dreher about it; I did find a phone number for the parish that he supposedly was pastor of when he wrote his article but decided not to call him yet because just in case I got through to him I was trying to think of a tactful and respectful way of bringing up the issue.

By the way, I saw your post about lectio divina, and just in case Bob is still watching this thread, I think lectio is also a great prayer form. Be careful, though, because as the article states,
Fr. Dysinger:

For us today these images are a reminder that we must take in the word - that is, memorize it - and while gently repeating it to ourselves, allow it to interact with our thoughts, our hopes, our memories, our desires."

Omigod! Taking a lesson from Fr. Dreher or beng in analysis of prayer forms, this is very suspicious. Repeating a word to ourselves sounds an awful lot like a mantra, so it must be eastern, and therefore dangerous! Woo, woo, spooky! Not only that, lectio has MANY more steps to its “technique” than centering prayer, so it must obviously violate the intent of the Cloud of the Unknowing because it is a technique.

That last paragraph was added not so much for your benefit, but that of beng’s. I know it was gratuitous and took a sentence out of context and misrepresented the Cloud, and anyone familiar with lectio would know it’s B.S. However, it is the logical equivalent of what Fr. Dreher has claimed about CP, and that beng incessantly repeats and claims I haven’t dealt with.

Alan

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Regarding the “mantra” used in contemplative prayer:

From The Cloud of the Unknowing, chapter 7:

It is inevitable that ideas will arise in your mind and try to distract you in a thousand ways. They will question you saying, “What are you looking for, what do you want?” To all of them, you must reply, “God alone I seek and desire, only him.”

If they ask, “Who is this God?”, tell them that he is the God who created you, redeemed you, and brought you to this work. Say to your thoughts, “You are powerless to graso him. Be still.” Dispel them by turning to Jesus with loving desire. Don’t be surprised if your thoughts seem holy and valuable for prayer. Probably you will find yourself thinking about the wonderful qualities of Jesus, his sweetness, his love, his graciousness, his mercy. But if you pay attention to these ideas they will have gained what they wanted of you, and will go on chattering until they divert you even more to the thought of his passion. Then will come ideas about his great kindness, and if you keep listening they will be delighted. Soon you will be thinking about your sinful life and perhaps in this connection you will recall some place where you have lived in the past, until suddenly, before you know it, your mind is completely scattered.

[Comment: many CP beginners can certainly attest to that - Alan]

And yet, they were not bad thought. Actually, they were good and holy thoughts, so valuable, in fact, that anyone who expects to advance without having meditated often on his own sinfulness, the Passion of Christ, and the kindness, goodness, and dignity of God, will most certainly go astray and fail in his purpose. But a person who has long pondered these things must eventually leave them behind beneath a cloud of forgetting if he hopes to pierce the cloud of unknowing that lies between him and his God. So whenever you feel drawn by grace to the contemplative work and are determined to do it, simply raise your heart to God with a gentle stirring of love. Think only of God, the God who created you, redeemed you, and guided you to this work. Allow no other ideas about God to enter your mind. Yet even this is too much. A naked intent toward God, the desire for him alone, is enough.

If you want to gather all your desire into one simple wor that the mind can easilyl retain, choose a short word rather than a long one. A one-syllable word such as “God” or “love” is best. But choose one that is meaningful to you. Then fix it in your mind so that it will remain there come what may. This word will be your defense in conflict and in peace. Use it to beat upon the cloud of darkness above you and to subdue all distractions, consigning them to the cloud of forgetting beneath you. Should some thought go on annoying you demanding to know what you are doing, answer with this one work alone. If your mind begins to intellectualize over the meaning and connotations of this little word, remind yourself that its value lies in its simplicity. Do this and I assure you these thoughts will vanish. Why? Because you have refused to develop them with arguing.

 

[Deacon2006]

When I read the CCC 2616 I can see the Jesus prayer mentioned and praised by St. Augustine. Is this what some would call a centering prayer and if so then what is the fuss?

God Bless

 

[AlanFromWichita]

beng:

That they actually BECOME ZEN MASTERS!!! We are to understand them so we could preach to them better. Now it seems that we have embraced their truth!!! A truth that is nothing but falsehood.

OK, so that’s the part you object to.

To me, it didn’t sound like they were giving up on the Church in any way, but just becoming learned in another realm of thought. Thirty years ago I knew a priest who had a Ph.D. in psychology and had a secular private practice in addition to his pastoral duties in the church. Now one of the spiritual directors in our diocese has an engineering degree and used to work full time in that field, before he joined the seminary. Just because a priest became proficient at another way of thinking – speaking a foreign “love language” as it were – doesn’t necessarily mean he can no longer serve at home. In fact, I would think it would improve his ability to bring others closer to Catholicism.

What better way to infiltrate the ranks of the spiritually unaware than to pose as one of their own leaders? That old 1928 document by Pius XI or whoever it was, seemed to say we should evangelize by keeping strictly to ourselves and other religions will somehow come dancing to our tune because they will see how great we are – an ineffective strategy that our current Holy Father thankfully does not embrace.

Alan

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Deacon2006:

When I read the CCC 2616 I can see the Jesus prayer mentioned and praised by St. Augustine. Is this what some would call a centering prayer and if so then what is the fuss?

God Bless

Dear Deacon2006,

During CP meetings I’ve heard the Jesus prayer discussed; it is not exactly centering prayer but by the standards of those criticizing CP it would constitute a repeated word, therefore a “mantra,” therefore it is eastern and dangerous.

That’s what I’m interested in finding out, is what is the fuss? We’re talking about sitting silently for 20 minutes.

While promoting what has been a wonderful form of finding transforming union with God, I hear these objections but I cannot tell on what they are based. There are false statements made about the techniques and teachings of Keating and Pennington, and then there are vague references to the fact that they sound “eastern.”

The nature and persistence of these articles simply aren’t backed up by any concrete claims, so it makes me wonder whether it has something to do with political factions within the Church. From what I’ve learned on this forum, Catholics have more to worry about than however many thousands of Protestant denominations there are, but how many warring factions there are within the Church herself. I even searched on the AAA forum for centering prayer and found the same thing there; the apologist dismissed CP as new age and dangerous and provided links to yet more articles with baseless criticism. It reminds me of the secular media; whatever the New York Times says gets parroted all over in print and on TV as if it were gospel.

Alan

 

[AlanFromWichita]

This link

Dear beng,

I have read the thread now. Thank you for the link. Overall it sounded like a reasonably intelligent discussion; most of the negative comments about CP were speculative, but they were billed as such so they didn’t bother me. There were some good posts that refuted some of Dreher’s points better than I have so far, by jrpascucci and threadbare (posts 12 and 36).

One anti-CP post I viewed with alarm was the one by “american colleen” who wrote:

I ran into it a couple of years ago at a parish held Lenten ‘retreat’. Fr. John Burchill, OP and Sr. Barbara Metz SnD taught the ‘class’ which took place in the church itself.

Sr. Metz asked us to close our eyes and meditate on Jesus while saying a ‘mantra’ over and over again. It could be any word at all, religious or secular. In a sing song low voice she went on about imagining Jesus walking towards us, dressed in ‘either traditional biblical garb’ or ‘a new sweatshirt and levi jeans’ whichever made us feel more comfortable. He sits down beside us and hugs us and looks into our eyes… blah, blah, blah.

Anyway, my feeling was one of alarm because this was basically a hypnotizing excercise putting us on the same level as our Saviour. I just watched the nun, amazed at this absolute **** she was spewing. It was the same TM garbage that some of my friends studied in the 70s but she inserted the name Jesus in it. The whole thing is to wipe out what is all around you and bring you to your ‘center’ so we can commune with Jesus Christ and reach a totally new level. No suffering, no ‘dry’ times, no building up to new understanding through years of prayer and sacrifice, instant gratification if you will.

This is very disturbing, and is quite contrary to proper CP technique. The whole point of centering prayer is to void oneself of thoughts, not to embrace a bunch of pablum spooned out by a narrator. I don’t know what these people were doing, but it was definitely NOT centering prayer as taught by Contemplative Outreach.

I’m going to check with CO and find out if these people were supposedly trained to teach CP. Personally I thought the requirements for certification to teach CP were too strict (I wanted to do it but was unable to go to the required seminar/retreats) considering how simple it is, but this story, if true, shows that such quality control is certainly needed.

Thank you for bringing this to my attention. This is finally something I have to go on. This still doesn’t show anything wrong with centering prayer, but it certainly could explain part of the reason people have such a bad opinion of it. This narrated thought adventure is represents centering prayer about as well as John Kerry represents Catholic political teachings.

Alan

 

[beng]

AlanFromWichita:

You guys have done me a great favor. I have found my copy of the books The Cloud of the Unknowing and The Book of Privy Counseling and spent much of the free moments I’ve had today reading it. One thing I haven’t mentioned is that I have not been going to centering prayer meetings or, for that matter, doing it at home now for over a year. This book is so exciting to me it just completely renews my calling to a contemplative lifestyle and mentality. It is so simple, so beautiful and so obvious, it boggles my mind how many people consider contemplative work as dangerous or spooky.

From The Book of Privy Counseling (by the author of the Cloud):

The Criticism is toward Centering Prayer not the book Cloud of the Unknowing. It remain to be seen if Centerin Prayer stays true to the Cloud book.

And again contemplative prayer =/= Centering Prayer. Centering Prayer claim that it’s a form of contemplative prayer. True there are many form of contemplative prayer, but we need to evaluate if certain form of contemplative prayer is inline with the Church teaching.

 

[beng]

AlanFromWichita:

As far as centering prayer, I am not certified by Contemplative Outreach to teach it, but I am more familiar with it than with most other Church traditions, and have written articles about it for our diocesan newspapers. My wife went on a weeklong centering prayer retreat along with about two dozen nuns, among others.

This is probbaly why you’re so attach to it. Think of it, If centering Prayer is indeed questionable can you lose all of that attachment?

One’s loyalty must only be to the Church which is the only infallible teacher. This way one has assurance of correct teaching to embrace. Furthermore one will not be too attach to an erroroneous doctrine (since the Church is infallible) that one can not let it go without much sacrifice

It is not some fringe movement. If I find some actual criticism of CP I will immediately forward it to Contemplative Outreach to hear how they respond, but so far nothing I’ve heard is anything but vague innuendos, such as “there’s a single word prayer used so it must be a mantra” and “the monks who developed it conversed with eastern religions” as if they are somehow polluted for talking to the human scum and now incapable of serving the Catholic Church.

First of all, what do you think “mantra” is? It’s a vain repetitious words which is exactly what that Thomas Keating guideline says.

Second of all, the problem is not about the ‘conversing’ with the eastern religion per se. But the fact that these monks embrace the philosophy of those pagan religions and incorperate it with the teaching of the Church. The fact that later on some monks become Zen master is most telling.

Those are actual criticism echoed by many, but you just easily brush them of. I don’t know why.

Do you presume to speak for the Church in condemning CP?

CP violates certain tenets of the Church. There are two I’ve mentioned above. The other is your whole concept of human’s divinity which is against every teaching of the Church. This is the big no no. And you even defended it.

And since you said that if I were to attend CP seminar I would be shocked, then I would assume that there are still many more questionable prctice in the CP.

The article that beng has been using tirelessly to indict CP by Fr. Dreher clearly shows a gap in demonstrated knowledge of CP at best; even I in my limited knowledge of the Church knows that. I would like to hear from Dreher about it; I did find a phone number for the parish that he supposedly was pastor of when he wrote his article but decided not to call him yet because just in case I got through to him I was trying to think of a tactful and respectful way of bringing up the issue.

Do it via email so we all could read. Better yet, invite him offer. If you want, give the phone number to me and I’ll invite him over to join the discussion.

cont below