Centering Prayer at my parish

[AlanFromWichita]

beng:

Let me repeat again, DOES NOT BLEND HUMAN AND DIVINE NATURE! And you’re saying that we have divinity

Don’t you recall Christ’s answer when they accused Him of blashphemy for saying He was a son of God?

Let me refresh your memory.
John 10:34-36:

Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your law, ‘I said, “You are gods”’? If it calls them gods to whom the word of God came, and scripture cannot be set aside, can you say that the one whom the Father has consecrated and sent into the world blasphemes because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’?

And as far as the indwelling Spirit, we have:
John 7:37-39:

On the last and greatest day of the feast, Jesus stood up and exclaimed, “Let anyone who thirsts come to me and drink. Whoever believes in me, as scripture says: ‘Rivers of living water will flow from within him.’” He said this in reference to the Spirit that those who came to believe in him were to receive. There was, of course, no Spirit yet, because Jesus had not yet been glorified.

Our true selves are made in the image of God. You can deny the Holy Spirit, but He is within each of us, patiently waiting for us to give Him a chance to speak and heal us. He will do this from within us. Too many of us are so busy looking for God here, there and everywhere that we do not realize that God is a part of us.

Do you take Holy Communion? Do you not realize that Holy Communion has a transforming effect on you? How can you swallow the Eucharist and then say you have no divinity within you? If that’s the case, then what’s the point? The Good News becomes useless if we do not share in Christ’s divinity.

Alan

 

[beng]

AlanFromWichita:

What line of reasoning?

• Those who don’t like CP just don’t understand it
• They are haters
• CP (or other questionable practice) is not for everyone.

I don’t get the impression you know anything about CP except what a few sensational but shallow articles reported.

I don’t need to shot myself in the foot to know that it will hurt alot.

The reason I’m not agreeing with them is that I have listened to Keating’s teachings enough to know what he does and does not say, and this article mischaracterizes the practice by saying it has a mantra, which is false, that says we are striving to go deep into ourselves instead of toward God which is false, and makes other false claims.

Do you use repition in your CP? What kind. Honestly write to us what do you usally chanted. And in what way? How long?

As you your assertion that the “sacred word” is vain repitition,

What sacred words? Bible? Which part?

then perhaps you should read the Cloud of the Unknowing, which even Dreher was smart enough not to try to knock. Although he did pick out a couple of quotes from the Unknowing, he falsely claimed that centering prayer is somehow against the teachings of the unknown author, whereas to someone like me who has read the book twice and listens to Keating’s teachings, it is completely evident that centering prayer is no more and no less faithful to the Cloud and its teachings.

Fr Drehrer said that CP is against Cloud of the Unknowing because in that book it said: “I am trying to make clear with words what experience teaches more convincingly, that techniques and methods are ultimately useless for awakening contemplative love.” While CP itself fosters techniques.

Exhibit 1: Keating’s writing

The Guidelines
Choose a sacred word as the symbol of your intention to consent to God’s presence and action within.

Sitting comfortably and with eyes closed, settle briefly and silently introduce the sacred word as the symbol of your consent to God’s presence and action within.

When you become aware of thoughts, return ever-so-gently to the sacred word.

At the end of the prayer period, remain in silence with eyes closed for a couple of minutes.

That is the basic guideline, read more to go into the detail. It’s quite surprising, and not in a good way. Here’s on the “Choose a sacred word” thingie:

Explanation of the Guidelines
“Choose a sacred word as the symbol of your intention to consent to God’s presence and action within.” (cf. Open Mind, Open Heart, chap. 5)
The sacred word expresses our intention to be in God’s presence and to yield to the divine action.
The sacred word should be chosen during a brief period of prayer asking the Holy Spirit to inspire us with one that is especially suitable for us.
Examples: Lord, Jesus, Abba, Father, Mother
Other possibilities: Love, Peace, Shalom
Having chosen a sacred word, we do not change it during the prayer period, for that would be to start thinking again.
A simple inward gaze upon God may be more suitable for some persons than the sacred word. In this case, one consents to God’s presence and action by turning inwardly toward God as if gazing upon him. The same guidelines apply to the sacred gaze as to the sacred word.

I know Catholic and that is not one.

cont below

 

[beng]

You seem like an intelligent and passionate person, but you seem strangely willing to stake your own personal credibility on authors who clearly have not done their research.

How do you know that he has not done his research? You can’t just say that he has not done his reasearch just because you disagree with him.

If you personally know of such an author who claims to be an expert at CP, ask him/her to contact me – on this very thread will do fine – and I’d love to discuss it. So far the only people I’ve read or heard about who think CP is satanic, new age, or whatever, are people who have not taken the time or energy to actually learn it. Either that, or they are only feigning ignorance for the sake of some agenda.

I’ve searched for him. I can’t find an email. Might wanna contact This Rock magazine since the piece is printed there first.

If you don’t want to do centering prayer, that’s fine.

Just ignore it doesn’t cut it. I need to get anyone out of this heretical practice, including you.

I wouldn’t engage in a prayer form I was afraid of either.

The rule would be if the prayer is in line with the Catholic faith. Not that you would be afraid of it or not.

Just because there are those who oppose it doesn’t make it wrong.

Alan

Of course. But that’s not what makes it wrong

 

[beng]

Interesting link from Free Republic.com

An interesting comment from that link:

Here is the news item about the Trappist monk becoming a Zen master:

Fr. Kevin Hunt Installed as Zen Teacher

On April 17, 2004, Fr. Kevin Hunt, OCSO, a Trappist monk of St. Joseph’s Abbey in Spencer, Massachusetts, and a former member of the MID board, was installed as a Zen teacher (Sensei) in a ceremony held at the abbey. The installation was led by Fr. Robert Kennedy, S.J., who is the only North American Jesuit who is also a Zen Master (Roshi) and who served as Fr. Kevin’s teacher. The installation was witnessed by the abbot of St. Joseph’s and the rest of the monastic community as well as by over seventy guests, including Zen teachers and members of Catholic religious orders from around the country.

Fr. Kevin thereby became the first Trappist monk who is also a Zen teacher. In recognition of this unique event, letters of commendation were written by His Holiness the Dalai Lama and by Fr. Peter-Hans Kolvenbach, the superior general of the Society of Jesus. Fr. Kolvenbach wrote, “Many Christian have found Zen to be a valuable instrument for progressing in the spiritual life. By coming to focus on the present moment through the practice of the techniques of Zen meditation, the Christian can become aware of God’s immediate loving presence.”

Fr. Kolvenbach’s remarks reflect the commitment made by the Jesuits at their 34th General Congregation to foster dialogue with other religions, an activity that they called “a shared commitment to a transformation of the cultural and social life within which people live.” Noting that Pope John Paul II has wished to make interreligious dialogue an apostolic priority for the third millennium, Fr. Kennedy said that his work with Fr. Kevin was one way in which this priority could be carried out. He added that this installation ceremony points to “the unity and cooperation between the Jesuits and the Trappists as well as to the friendship and mutual esteem between Buddhists and Christians.” He also sees it as a continuation of the dialogue between Christians and Buddhists that has been fostered over the past half-century by persons such as Thomas Merton, himself a Trappist monk.

:banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

 

[tru_dvotion]

it is a duck.

 

[beng]

AlanFromWichita:

Don’t you recall Christ’s answer when they accused Him of blashphemy for saying He was a son of God?

Let me refresh your memory.

Originally Posted by John 10:34-36
Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your law, ‘I said, “You are gods”’? If it calls them gods to whom the word of God came, and scripture cannot be set aside, can you say that the one whom the Father has consecrated and sent into the world blasphemes because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’?

Actually I do remember that. And actually I KNEW that you will forward this verse. This is the same verse that is ussually used by Mormon. Browse to the net you see all kind of refutation to anyone who use this verse to say that we are divine, mostly by Protestant however.

Anyway, look at the context of where Jesus was quoting that verse:

Psalms 82:6-8
6 I say, “You are gods, sons of the Most High, all of you; 7 nevertheless, you shall die like men, and fall like any prince.” 8 Arise, O God, judge the earth; for to thee belong all the nations!

Clearly we see that “gods” here just mean something other than divinity. It could mean that since we are the sons of God, we are “little” gods. But nonetheless we do not have God’s divinity and still subject to our mortality.

And as far as the indwelling Spirit, we have:

John 7:37-39
On the last and greatest day of the feast, Jesus stood up and exclaimed, “Let anyone who thirsts come to me and drink. Whoever believes in me, as scripture says: ‘Rivers of living water will flow from within him.’” He said this in reference to the Spirit that those who came to believe in him were to receive. There was, of course, no Spirit yet, because Jesus had not yet been glorified.

Our true selves are made in the image of God. You can deny the Holy Spirit, but He is within each of us, patiently waiting for us to give Him a chance to speak and heal us. He will do this from within us. Too many of us are so busy looking for God here, there and everywhere that we do not realize that God is a part of us.

Holy Spirit within us DOES NOT make us divine.

Do you take Holy Communion? Do you not realize that Holy Communion has a transforming effect on you? How can you swallow the Eucharist and then say you have no divinity within you? If that’s the case, then what’s the point?

Alan

Don’t you read the Bible? TO HAVE “ETERNAL LIFE”:

John 6:53
53 So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; 54 he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.

A far cry from divinity that is rightfully God’s.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

beng:

Holy Spirit within us DOES NOT make us divine.

Sigh. Perhaps you might find this interesting.
CCC 1702:

The divine image is present in every man. It shines forth in the communion of persons, in the likeness of the unity of the divine persons among themselves.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

beng:
Noting that Pope John Paul II has wished to make interreligious dialogue an apostolic priority for the third millennium, Fr. Kennedy said that his work with Fr. Kevin was one way in which this priority could be carried out. He added that this installation ceremony points to “the unity and cooperation between the Jesuits and the Trappists as well as to the friendship and mutual esteem between Buddhists and Christians.” He also sees it as a continuation of the dialogue between Christians and Buddhists that has been fostered over the past half-century by persons such as Thomas Merton, himself a Trappist monk.
What part of this bothers you? Is it that the Holy Father wishes to have interreligious dialog, or that these monks are taking him at his word and carrying out his wishes?

Or do you think the Holy Father would disapprove of what they are doing? Or do you think it is a bad idea even if it is in line with the Holy Father’s wishes?

Alan

 

[beng]

AlanFromWichita:

Sigh. Perhaps you might find this interesting.

CCC 1702
*The divine image is present in every man. It shines forth in the communion of persons, in the likeness of the unity of the divine persons among themselves.
*

We were created according to the IMAGE of God (Gen 1:26).

Oh man, how deep CP has dragged you into?

 

[beng]

AlanFromWichita:

What part of this bothers you? Is it that the Holy Father wishes to have interreligious dialog, or that these monks are taking him at his word and carrying out his wishes?

Or do you think the Holy Father would disapprove of what they are doing? Or do you think it is a bad idea even if it is in line with the Holy Father’s wishes?

Alan

Read Mortalium Animos.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

beng:

How do you know that he has not done his research? You can’t just say that he has not done his reasearch just because you disagree with him.

Can too, when I disagree with him based on personal knowledge and experience. This guy reminds me of pundits in the secular media who criticize books and radio talk shows they’ve obviously never listened to, but just read other pundits talk about.

I’ve read the Cloud of the Unknowing twice, and I have listened to many hours of lectures by Keating et al about centering prayer and the spiritual journey. Heck, I could probably tell you stuff that’d have you going off more than what Dreher said, but it seems like you have enough to worry about.

The fact that the Cloud does not promote a technique while centering prayer does, all by itself shows a lack of depth of knowledge or an intentional misrepresentation. I never heard of the cloud until I had been involved with CP for over six months and I was amazed at how closely they related.

Oops. gotta go again. it’s been fun.

Alan

 

[tru_dvotion]

Not long ago there were two threads going on the apologetics forum about us being gods… there were some amazingly heretic explanations. Allan, this is nothing more than shades of Shirley McLaine… Out on a limb all right …. Don’t tell me you subscribe to this NEW AGE heresy?

 

[tru_dvotion]

I’ve read the Cloud of the Unknowing twice, and I have listened to many hours of lectures by Keating et al about centering prayer and the spiritual journey. Heck, I could probably tell you stuff that’d have you going off more than what Dreher said, but it seems like you have enough to worry about.

This would explain your confusion.

 

[Exporter]

Fr. John Dreher wrote the paper from which I lifted these paragraphs…

"In order to see clearly that centering prayer departs from Catholic tradition, let us review the differences between Christian spirituality and that of Eastern religions. These differences flow, above all, from their concepts of God, of man, and of their relationship. In light of this contrast, we should be able to see more clearly from which of these centering prayer draws its approach and techniques.

In Catholic teaching, all men are creatures, called out of nothingness to know God. All men are also sinners, cut off from God and destined to death. A Christian is one whose life has been reconstituted in Christ. He is no longer in the place and stance of a sinner, that is, apart from God, acting as if he were the ultimate source, measure, and goal of his own behavior. He is *in Christ. *Henceforth, his life is supposed to originate in Christ and to be directed to God the Father. I say “supposed to” for it is a possibility that must be acted upon. It is not automatic. The grace of baptism must be incarnated in obedience, and, even after baptism, the Christian can choose to conform to Christ or to his fallen nature, that is, to sin. Eastern religions, in contrast, lack revelation of God as a personal Creator who radically transcends his creatures. Though possessing many praiseworthy elements, they nonetheless seek God as if he were *part of *the universe, rather than its Creator. This is because they are monistic, seeing all reality as one. Thus, God is a dimension, though hidden, of the same reality of which man is a part. The goal therefore is to peel away the exterior world to get to the spiritual reality beneath it. God is conceived of as an impersonal state of being. In contrast, for Christians, God is the Real, and the whole of the universe exists by God’s free choice; creation is a second, contingent reality-and, in Christian thought, did not need to exist. Moreover, this contingent universe is the result of a God who is vastly more than mere being; he is a loving Father. "

 

[beng]

AlanFromWichita:

Can too, when I disagree with him based on personal knowledge and experience. This guy reminds me of pundits in the secular media who criticize books and radio talk shows they’ve obviously never listened to, but just read other pundits talk about.

If you click the link from thet Freerepublic.com you will know that there are several people who personally experienced CP and think that it’s bad.

And as of now you have zero proof that Fr Dehrer does not research his stuff.

I’ve read the Cloud of the Unknowing twice, and I have listened to many hours of lectures by Keating et al about centering prayer and the spiritual journey. Heck, I could probably tell you stuff that’d have you going off more than what Dreher said, but it seems like you have enough to worry about.

Then it is worst isn’t it.

The fact that the Cloud does not promote a technique while centering prayer does, all by itself shows a lack of depth of knowledge or an intentional misrepresentation. I never heard of the cloud until I had been involved with CP for over six months and I was amazed at how closely they related.

So, does the CP promote technique (which would be contrary to “Cloud”) or not?

 

[AlanFromWichita]

beng:

CCC 1702
The divine image is present in every man. It shines forth in the communion of persons, in the likeness of the unity of the divine persons among themselves.

To quote some soon-to-be-famous apologists, if it quacks like a duck…

If it shines like a light…

Alan

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Exporter:

Fr. John Dreher wrote the paper from which I lifted these paragraphs…

"In order to see clearly that centering prayer departs from Catholic tradition, let us review the differences between Christian spirituality and that of Eastern religions. These differences flow, above all, from their concepts of God, of man, and of their relationship. In light of this contrast, we should be able to see more clearly from which of these centering prayer draws its approach and techniques.

In Catholic teaching, all men are creatures, called out of nothingness to know God. All men are also sinners, cut off from God and destined to death. A Christian is one whose life has been reconstituted in Christ. He is no longer in the place and stance of a sinner, that is, apart from God, acting as if he were the ultimate source, measure, and goal of his own behavior. He is *in Christ. *Henceforth, his life is supposed to originate in Christ and to be directed to God the Father. I say “supposed to” for it is a possibility that must be acted upon. It is not automatic. The grace of baptism must be incarnated in obedience, and, even after baptism, the Christian can choose to conform to Christ or to his fallen nature, that is, to sin. Eastern religions, in contrast, lack revelation of God as a personal Creator who radically transcends his creatures. Though possessing many praiseworthy elements, they nonetheless seek God as if he were *part of *the universe, rather than its Creator. This is because they are monistic, seeing all reality as one. Thus, God is a dimension, though hidden, of the same reality of which man is a part. The goal therefore is to peel away the exterior world to get to the spiritual reality beneath it. God is conceived of as an impersonal state of being. In contrast, for Christians, God is the Real, and the whole of the universe exists by God’s free choice; creation is a second, contingent reality-and, in Christian thought, did not need to exist. Moreover, this contingent universe is the result of a God who is vastly more than mere being; he is a loving Father. "

This is all very nice, but what does it have to do with centering prayer?

 

[AlanFromWichita]

beng:

If you click the link from thet Freerepublic.com you will know that there are several people who personally experienced CP and think that it’s bad.

What link? I looked at freerepublic.com and saw no immediate sense that it had anything to do with Catholicism.

Heck, I can one-up you. I’ll bet I can find several people on this very forum who have personally experienced Catholicism and think that it’s bad!

So far the only negative accusations anyone on this thread have leveled about CP are based on false characterizations.

And as of now you have zero proof that Fr Dehrer does not research his stuff.

You are absolutely right. He may research his stuff and still get it wrong.

Then it is worst isn’t it.

Wouldn’t you like to know? :ehh:

So, does the CP promote technique (which would be contrary to “Cloud”) or not?

Technique, yes.
Contrary to Cloud, no.

Maybe I’ll have to read The Cloud again ( ) but last time I read it, CP was completely in conformance with suggestions made by the author.

I did see you quote above:

Fr Drehrer said that CP is against Cloud of the Unknowing because in that book it said: “I am trying to make clear with words what experience teaches more convincingly, that techniques and methods are ultimately useless for awakening contemplative love.” While CP itself fosters techniques.

I couldn’t find this quote in the translation I got for free, (I’m not too happy with it so far but I guess it was worth the price) and I can’t find my book right now to read the context. However, the author speaks in a very colorful language, so I can’t exactly say without context. Perhaps techniques and methods are useless, in his view, for awakening contemplative love. Techniques and methods, however, for inviting communication of such love are a different story.

Here’s the technique in a nutshell: sit still, in a comfortable chair, and clear you mind for 20 minutes. That is really it.

Now this business about the “sacred word,” which maybe is an unfortunate term Keating uses leading to its being misrepresented as “mantra.” In order to avoid thoughts that typically race through our minds, like what we have to get from the store, whether the kids will be in bed when we get home, etc, we use a simple word – doesn’t matter what word because in context it has no meaning – to distract us from the wordly thought. The word is only a tool, and is not to be repeated, and a lot of people get good enough at clearing their mind they hardly have to use the word at all. And, the use of the word is discussed in the Cloud. The only part I can see that the monks made up is the part about where they recommend doing this twice for 20 minutes a day.

Contemplative prayer is silence, among other things, as stated in the Catechism (2717). Centering prayer is a way of sitting silently for 20 minutes. There is nothing complicated, no chants, no gurus, no nothing except a wonderful freedom that can feel strange at first to your typical product of society that emphasizes constant noise and active thoughts at all times. It’s a great way to spend some time in Eucharistic adoration.

Alan

 

[AlanFromWichita]

beng:

Read Mortalium Animos.

Have a heart! I’m a slow reader. I ask a simple question “what part of it did you not like” and you give me a whole lengthy essay to read.

I did read part of it, enough to get the idea that it is against interreligious dialog. It is 75 years old, though. I thought we were talking about JPII. Does JPII forbid interreligious dialog? Didn’t I hear something about him kissing the Quran?

Wait a minute, I’ll answer my own question by looking at the Vatican web site. Ah, yes, from the
PONTIFICAL COUNCIL FOR INTER-RELIGIOUS DIALOGUE DIALOGUE AND PROCLAMATION

“It is 25 years since “Nostra Aetate”, the declaration of the Second Vatican Council on the Church’s relationship to other religions, was promulgated. The document stressed the importance of interreligious dialogue. At the same time, it recalled that the Church is in duty bound to proclaim without fail Christ, the Way, the Truth, and the Life, in whom all people find their fulfillment (cf. NA 2).”
Pontifical Council for Inter-religious Dialog:

Thirdly, in the context of religious plurality, dialogue means “all positive and constructive interreligious relations with individuals and communities of other faiths which are directed at mutual understanding and enrichment”(6), in obedience to truth and respect for freedom. It includes both witness and the exploration of respective religious convictions. It is in this third sense that the present document uses the term dialogue for one of the integral elements of the Church’s evangelizing mission.

Find more from the Pontifical Council for Inter-religious dialogue at: vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/interelg/index.htm

Perhaps I need to repeat the question. Referring to the monks who said they were carrying out the Holy Father’s (this year, not nearly a century ago) plan for interreligous dialogue, which part of it bothers you?

Alan

 

[beng]

AlanFromWichita:

To quote some soon-to-be-famous apologists, if it quacks like a duck…

If it shines like a light…

Alan

Inquiring mind wants to know, what are you saying?