Centering Prayer at my parish

[beng]

It seems that AlanFromWichita put me on the ignore list.

This is why he did not see the obvious warning of centering prayer that was printed from This Rock magazine.

It shows how cult like attitude (shutting their ear from what other said) is detrimental. And I wonder why only “certain” people has this attitude.

 

[tru_dvotion]

Dear Allan,

I would not be the right person to debate the fine points of these books, because I have not read them. However, I am seasoned enough to pick up a book and to scrutinize it just leafing through its pages to see if it would be palatable and in line with the teaching of the Catholic Church and its Tradition. I do not touch anything echoing eastern philosophies, maybe for research, but never for spiritual food or guidance. I have no use for the eastern perspective. The Catholic Church is perfectly sufficient to provide me with the spiritual food and guidance I need. The Church contains the truth, and anything outside of it is just a poor shadow of it or something diabolical. I am instinctively turned off of any formula, any short cut, any quick fix, because the origins of such can never come from God.

I am grateful to Annie for coming on this thread and giving her critique of one of the books you endorsed and to drforjc to say what I would have said in closing. God bless.

 

[Jenlyn]

Bob Baran:

IÕve read several articles over the internet about the dangers of Centering Prayer with reference to New Age and would like some feed back from participatory members.

What are the sources? Are they Catholic? What does the Vatican say about centering prayer? The catachism? Make sure you are getting the Catholic view point from Catholic sources. That’s where you will find the true answer. There are many articles for and against this but who is writing them?

Search with care and caution.

Jen

 

[AlanFromWichita]

beng:

It seems that AlanFromWichita put me on the ignore list.

It might seem that way, but actually I have no “ignore” list. Be careful; your perceptions may deceive you.

This is why he did not see the obvious warning of centering prayer that was printed from This Rock magazine.

I saw, but did not respond. As much as I want to spend “quality time” on this forum, I often have only short bursts of a few minutes each, until I have to go do something or run an errand. Also, my wife doesn’t understand my “work” on this forum as well as I’d like, so she sees it as a conflict. Therefore when I get on here and see a half dozen posts all going off, I just grab one or two and respond. In fact, I’m under pressure to get this one finished too. Perhaps y’all think I should have some systematic way to “clean up” old posts that I may have left unanswered, but so far people who really care what I have to say and don’t know why I haven’t answered have sent me a PM stating as much, to which I then reply promptly.

It shows how cult like attitude (shutting their ear from what other said) is detrimental. And I wonder why only “certain” people has this attitude.

Please. I doubt you’ll find anyone more open-minded than me. If you find that person, point him or her out to me so that I may learn. That is, unless you define “cult like attitude” as somebody who doesn’t agree with you right off the bat. My definition of “open-minded” is that I presume practically nothing and hear all sides of an argument based on their merit, trying to reconcile both the quality of the arguments and the subjective or objective axioms and mindsets upon which they are derived. I try very hard to judge nobody except by their own standards, and those they claim to follow.

See, now I’ve used up my time for this segment and haven’t gotten a chance to respond to your article, because I’ve spent it defending against your personal comments. Oh, well. Maybe next time.

Alan

 

[beng]

Cool

 

[Bob_Baran]

Jenlyn:

What are the sources? Are they Catholic? What does the Vatican say about centering prayer? The catachism? Make sure you are getting the Catholic view point from Catholic sources. That’s where you will find the true answer. There are many articles for and against this but who is writing them?

Search with care and caution.

Jen

Jen,

Here are a few of the sources that I’m speaking of:

“The New Age Counterfeit” by Johnette Benkovic (ETWN)

“Danger of Centering Prayer” by Rev. John D. Dreher (Catholic Answers, November 1997)

“The Unicorn in the Sanctuary: The Impact of the New Age on the Catholic Church”

by Randy England (Tan Books)

“A Critique of M. Basil Pennington’s article on Centering Prayer” (The Cross and Veil)

“Our Father’s Plan” by Fr. William Most (Christendom College Press)

“A Call to Vigilance Pastoral Instruction on the New Age” by Archbishop Norberto Rivera Carrera

 

[Jenlyn]

Bob

I have not read these. Are they for or against? If they are against, can you find any Catholic resourses that are for? If you can’t, I would stay away from it and not give it another thought.

[would like some feed back from participatory members.]

What is your purpose? To join or to disband the group?
Jen

 

[mhansen]

beng:

Centering prayer is essentially a form of self-hypnosis. It makes use of a “mantra,” a word repeated over and over to focus the mind while striving by one’s will to go deep within oneself.

Survey says: BING! You’re wrong. There is no mantra in Centering Prayer.

It’s easy to condemn what one does not understand. Ignorance is bliss, as they say. Look, if people don’t want to try Centering Prayer, fine, but don’t quote ERRONEOUS reviews on Centering Prayer. Come up with something original at least.

 

[mhansen]

tru_dvotion:

Dear Allan,

I would not be the right person to debate the fine points of these books, because I have not read them. However, I am seasoned enough to pick up a book and to scrutinize it just leafing through its pages to see if it would be palatable and in line with the teaching of the Catholic Church and its Tradition. I do not touch anything echoing eastern philosophies, maybe for research, but never for spiritual food or guidance. I have no use for the eastern perspective. The Catholic Church is perfectly sufficient to provide me with the spiritual food and guidance I need. The Church contains the truth, and anything outside of it is just a poor shadow of it or something diabolical. I am instinctively turned off of any formula, any short cut, any quick fix, because the origins of such can never come from God.

Another example of condemning anything we don’t know about. I would bet that St. John of the Cross and St. Teresa of Avila both sound “Eastern” to you. They are both very much a part of the Catholic Church and its Tradition. They both happen to be not only saints, but also Doctors of the Church. Might I suggest you actually READ and DIGEST them instead “leafing through the pages?”

If you agree with me that both of the abovementioned Saints/Doctors are “part of the Catholic Church and its Tradition”, would you care to enlighten me as to exactly how Centering Prayer, leading to true contemplation, differs from what they offer?

 

[Bob_Baran]

Jenlyn:

Bob

I have not read these. Are they for or against? If they are against, can you find any Catholic resourses that are for? If you can’t, I would stay away from it and not give it another thought.

[would like some feed back from participatory members.]

What is your purpose? To join or to disband the group?
Jen

Jen,
These articles are either against it or indicate that we should be cautious. The reason for my enquiry was to get a better understanding of the issue. Thanks for your (name removed by moderator)ut.

 

[Exporter]

Would you give your five year old an electric saw (table saw) for Christmas?

Why give tools to uninitiated who don’t know how to use them?

“Centering Prayer” doesn’t even sound Catholic. If it quacks like a duck, etc., it most likely is a duck. Look out.

 

[mhansen]

Exporter:

Would you give your five year old an electric saw (table saw) for Christmas?

Why give tools to uninitiated who don’t know how to use them?

“Centering Prayer” doesn’t even sound Catholic. If it quacks like a duck, etc., it most likely is a duck. Look out.

By the same token, why give the uninitiated free reign to dismiss, and even condemn, a legitimate means of union with God? Who are you to tell God in what ways He can work?

I don’t pretend to know anything about nuclear physics. Therefore, I would be prudent to excuse myself from any discussion that debates the pros and cons of such a subject. I think the same applies here.

 

[Exporter]

mhansen:

By the same token, why give the uninitiated free reign to dismiss, and even condemn, a legitimate means of union with God? Who are you to tell God in what ways He can work?

I don’t pretend to know anything about nuclear physics. Therefore, I would be prudent to excuse myself from any discussion that debates the pros and cons of such a subject. I think the same applies here.

mhansen, “by the same token”, *

I do know something about nuclear physics, one of my majors was Physics and I attended that Univ at Oak Ridge for a year. But that doesn’t help at all with spiritual realm. A careful reading will tell you I didn’t tell God how to work. The post was a warning.

Are you implying that I know nothing of the possible effects of opening the mind to whatever spirit that may be lurking nearby? It is possible that you misunderstood my post. I assure you that I have experienced negativity during “centering”, it was not a happy time.

And just who are you to decide that “centering” is a legitimate means of union with God? Do you have some special with-held information that you are keeping about “centering”? Please share it with us.

What I said was a warning to beginers that just as the Ouija Board opens the mind to any available spirit, so to can New Age Centering. Tell me where you find “centering” in Catholic literature. Perhaps you can enlighten us.*

 

[kmktexas]

mhansen:

Survey says: BING! You’re wrong. There is no mantra in Centering Prayer.

It’s easy to condemn what one does not understand. Ignorance is bliss, as they say. Look, if people don’t want to try Centering Prayer, fine, but don’t quote ERRONEOUS reviews on Centering Prayer. Come up with something original at least.

Come on, this isn’t a game show. This is serious discussion. That kind of mean spirited humor is not appreciated.

Beng mentioned the mantra. Keating calls is a “sacred word” (I am saying this from memory because the book is not here with me). This word or phrase is used much the same way as a mantra is used in Eastern meditation. You return to the word when you find other thoughts entering your consciousness.

Beng has just emphasised the point that Exporter made. Proponents of CP maintain that the word used for CP is different from a mantra but it is a VERY fine distinction. And a distinction that would be lost on most people, especially those who sign up for the courses at the local retreat center. If CP is a valid form of prayer, it is in the realm of St. Theresa de Avila and St. John of the Cross, who were both much further along in their spititual journies than the usual 20-25 parishioners who sign up for the local CP course. Most of us regular Jills and Joes are not ready for intensive meditative prayer or contemplative prayer, let alone CP.

 

[mhansen]

Exporter:

mhansen, “by the same token”, *

I do know something about nuclear physics, one of my majors was Physics and I attended that Univ at Oak Ridge for a year. But that doesn’t help at all with spiritual realm. A careful reading will tell you I didn’t tell God how to work. The post was a warning.

Are you implying that I know nothing of the possible effects of opening the mind to whatever spirit that may be lurking nearby? It is possible that you misunderstood my post. I assure you that I have experienced negativity during “centering”, it was not a happy time.

And just who are you to decide that “centering” is a legitimate means of union with God? Do you have some special with-held information that you are keeping about “centering”? Please share it with us.

What I said was a warning to beginers that just as the Ouija Board opens the mind to any available spirit, so to can New Age Centering. Tell me where you find “centering” in Catholic literature. Perhaps you can enlighten us.*
Umm, good for you that you have a Physics degree. Where does this boasting come into the discussion? Did I boast of my degrees? No, because it is irrelevant to the discussion.

I have carefully read your post, and nowhere in it do you share your supposed “experiences” with Centering Prayer. The term Centering Prayer is just that, a term. If you knew anything about it, as you suggest you do, you would realize that it is a form of contemplative prayer, which, according to at least two Doctors of the Church, and the Church itself, is a legitimate means of union with God. You wanted my “special with-held information”, and there it is, except that what I give you is public information. The important point is that it is a form of contemplative prayer, and that IS backed by the Church.

If you had negative experiences, I wish you would have shared those with us, so we could all learn from them. To throw a blanket warning out, however, does no good. It only leaves me wondering whether or not those “experiences” actually happened, or if they were simply thrown in after the fact.

 

[mhansen]

kmktexas:

Come on, this isn’t a game show. This is serious discussion. That kind of mean spirited humor is not appreciated.

Beng mentioned the mantra. Keating calls is a “sacred word” (I am saying this from memory because the book is not here with me). This word or phrase is used much the same way as a mantra is used in Eastern meditation. You return to the word when you find other thoughts entering your consciousness.

Beng has just emphasised the point that Exporter made. Proponents of CP maintain that the word used for CP is different from a mantra but it is a VERY fine distinction. And a distinction that would be lost on most people, especially those who sign up for the courses at the local retreat center. If CP is a valid form of prayer, it is in the realm of St. Theresa de Avila and St. John of the Cross, who were both much further along in their spititual journies than the usual 20-25 parishioners who sign up for the local CP course. Most of us regular Jills and Joes are not ready for intensive meditative prayer or contemplative prayer, let alone CP.

Just to inform you, a mantra is a word or phrase that is CONSTANTLY repeated, to maintain awareness. A mantra is NOT used occasionally, but rather continuously. That is a far cry, and not a “very fine distinction”, from the use of a sacred word when we become conscious of having lost our attentiveness to God. Christian Meditation, ala John Main, uses a mantra; Centering Prayer does not.

The use of a “mantra”, in the Christian sense, is also well documented. The Orthodox use it quite frequently, and have for some time. The Philokalia contains an instruction by St. Simeon to recite “Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy on me” with each breath. This would be considered a mantra in the true sense of the word, as it is repeated with every breath.

I agree that contemplative prayer, as discussed by St. John and St. Teresa is a more “pure” form of contemplative prayer, but Centering Prayer is contemplative prayer nevertheless. The ultimate goal of Centering Prayer is to move into this type of contemplation, eventually abandoning the “sacred word” entirely.

I agree that this is a serious discussion, that is why unsubstantiated derogatory and accusatory claims such as the one quoted by Beng have no business here. One should be more careful of the sources they quote.

 

[tru_dvotion]

Survey says: BING! You’re wrong. There is no mantra in Centering Prayer. It’s easy to condemn what one does not understand. Ignorance is bliss, as they say. Look, if people don’t want to try Centering Prayer, fine, but don’t quote ERRONEOUS reviews on Centering Prayer. Come up with something original at least.

I did, but my opinion does not count. That is why I quoted impartial references (publisher’s synopsis) And yes there is mantra in centering prayer.

 

[Exporter]

mhansen:

Umm, good for you that you have a Physics degree. Where does this boasting come into the discussion? Did I boast of my degrees? No, because it is irrelevant to the discussion.

I have carefully read your post, and nowhere in it do you share your supposed “experiences” with Centering Prayer.

If you had negative experiences, I wish you would have shared those with us, so we could all learn from them. To throw a blanket warning out, however, does no good. It only leaves me wondering whether or not those “experiences” actually happened, or if they were simply thrown in after the fact.

---

It is obvious that you have a chip on your shoulder mhansen. KMKTexas wrote a valuable post to you. Please reread it.

It was you who brought up nuclear physics, not I. I was responding with truth. Actually, my work was in nuclear chemistry. It was not boastful at all. Remember it was you who first brought that up. Please don’t be so sensitive.

I did not venture to post my “experiences” because to me, they are embarrasing & frightening. I am sorry I let myself be exposed to it. If you just have to learn about it send me an e-mail and I will answer. ( I said an e-mail.)

 

[mhansen]

tru_dvotion:

I did, but my opinion does not count. That is why I quoted impartial references (publisher’s synopsis) And yes there is mantra in centering prayer.

tru_vdvotion,

Please share your definition of mantra. One (or both) of our definitions is incorrect.

Here’s how Webster’s, and I, define mantra: a mystical formula of invocation or incantation (as in Hinduism);

Here’s how Brittanica defines it: in Hinduism and Buddhism, a sacred utterance (syllable, word, or verse) that is considered to possess mystical or spiritual efficacy.

Using either of those definitions does not represent the use of a sacred word to bring our attention back to God, as in Centering Prayer. There is nothing “mystical” or “formulaic” about it. It’s just that: a tool to bring us back to God. The “tool” (sacred word) itself isn’t even required. You don’t *have *to use it. It’s not part of a “system” or “formula” of Centering Prayer, because there is no system or formula. We do not assume that the vain repetition of it (it is not repeated with any set frequency) will “magically” bring us to union with God. Thanks.

 

[beng]

mhansen:

Survey says: BING! You’re wrong. There is no mantra in Centering Prayer.

It’s easy to condemn what one does not understand. Ignorance is bliss, as they say. Look, if people don’t want to try Centering Prayer, fine, but don’t quote ERRONEOUS reviews on Centering Prayer. Come up with something original at least.

The “mantra” is probably the vain repition (Mat 6:7) of the name Jesus or any set of words.

The review is coming from a very credible source. If you wanna object, have some substance in the objection.