Centering Prayer

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DJ,
Just because YOU think of it that way does not mean I am incorrect or hasty.
It is a favorite new age and /or liberal trick to use very vague words or to manipulate the words themselves.
God’s presence within us is a vague word? A liberal trick? New age? :whistle:
And to attack me by saying my information is ignorant, or hasty, etc…well, there are much better men out there such as bishops and priests and famous authors who agree with me.
Attack you? Ignorant? My, you have a way of str…etch…ing things, DJ. I never used that phrasing. I simply asked you to re-read Jim’s post, to understand afresh what he was saying because it was hasty and assuming. I guess you still didn’t quite get it. 🤷
 
Just because YOU think of it that way does not mean I am incorrect or hasty. It is a favorite new age and /or liberal trick to use very vague words or to manipulate the words themselves. Another example of this vague use is the people to change the bible or prayers to get rid of any sex. I see that also on a daily basis, taking thousand year old prayers that refer to HIM (meaning Jesus) and changing it to “God.” This is done for an agenda they have. And in CP, they purposely use vague language because it is taken from Eastern practices, not Christian ones. Even if they “say” it is from the Cloud of Unknowing.

And yes, I use the word “God” also, but when used in a certain context, it is obviously being used to veil something.

But the answer to hre question is simple. If she feels comfortable doing it, go ahead. Like I said 20 times, it is not condemned by Rome so to each thier own. I believe in freedom, so go ahead. And to attack me by saying my information is ignorant, or hasty, etc…well, there are much better men out there such as bishops and priests and famous authors who agree with me.

Have fun.

DJ
Don’t be so hasty. You may be much more in the sight of Christ Our Lord.

Remember- the road to hell is paved with the skulls of bishops. Just think of the Arian Heresy- and how very wrong that could have gone. Priests can go astray of orthodox teaching.
Famous authors? So what. That does not impress me.
Your humility is a sign of strength. St Paul said: when I am weak, I am strong

😉
 
Hello, Tim,
Should centering prayer be avoided by persons under real spiritual attack? Thanks, Tim
I hold as absolute certainty that God Himself leads each of us in the prayer we are ready for, and does not fail those who have no books or methods to try. I’m thinking at this moment about blind Blessed Margaret of Castello, and many saints of ages before us who had no books. Will God fail to teach them sanctity? Not.

But I also maintain that God leads us in steps according with the measure we respond to His grace. He will never put us in the state of advanced prayer without the intermediary progress first. Not a single spiritual director I have read would espouse to that.

The people who are the strongest opponents here are very transparent to a person of advanced prayer, and it is almost futile to try and explain things in a way they will understand. It’s like trying to teach trigonometry before one has learned multiplication tables and basic math. We probably set these people against us thinking we are some sort of heretics, and that is what most saddens me, knowing I must bear that shame without fault, and without a means to help them see. Some day, if and when they get there and experience infused prayer and the “practice of the presence of God,” as DBT mentioned, they may remember our posts and think more kindly of us.

Back to your question, just relax and allow God to lead you in prayer, using the inspirations He sends you as to how to pray each day, and which most incline you to love. It will probably happen that you experience ‘centering’ prayer in your normal development, but maybe you will not recognize it as such. For all it really is, is resting in God, sometimes using words, sometimes not. Most likely, you already have done this, but did not give it a name. Some call it affective prayer, others call it the prayer of simplicity, some call it acquired contemplation, some just call it: 'I look at God, and He looks at me,’ as one saint put it, without using a title for the practice.

May you have peace and joy in the Lord.

Carole
 
Being quiet is good but I have problem with Centering Prayer - I would fall asleep after 15 min; therefore, it is not working for me.
 
Brooklyn,

I am going to say, first and foremost, if you do not feel drawn to centering prayer then you should not try it. There may be any of a number of reasons why you might not be called to it. As Joysong noted, you may simply not be ready for it. There is no shame in that as we are all at different points in our journeys and God will call us to what is most appropriate to where we are.

It may equally be that it is just not the right prayer style for your temperment. Different personality types are drawn to different prayer styles. Some prefer rote prayer; others prefer Ignatian prayer; still others prefer an Augustinian or Franciscan prayer style. Any meditative type prayer comes with great difficulty to some personality types, just as rote prayer drives other personality types to distraction. Again, God will draw you toward a good prayer style for you if you listen closely.

As to centering prayer itself, as Jim noted it is primarily based on The Cloud of Unknowing. But it actually goes back much further and according to the book Prayer and Temperment, by Chester Michael and Marie Norrisey, it was learned by the desert father John Cassian from the monks in the desert. It took on different forms in development, including the Jesus Prayer of the Orthodox. (See pg.25).

There are many people who either have second-hand information from opponents to it, which are primarily based on Frs. Keating and Pennington having visited the East. For some reason this seems to automatically discount them in some eyes, as if Catholics are the only people in the world who pray. :rolleyes: Further, there are indeed many people using centering prayer in ways other than what Fr. Keating teaches through Contemplative Outreach, and many of them are questionable at best. As such, one should certainly look closely at who is teaching this and where they learned it from.

As someone who has been practicing this for several years now, I have personally found it to be of great benefit, though I have to admit that I don’t do it as a regular practice, but use it when it seems the most appropriate way or what I am feeling called to. While most of the time it produces for me a great peace and sense of being loved by God as we gaze at each other, I did have one occasion when God gifted me with interior locutions while I was in that presence. It is certainly not something that one seeks, and is strictly a gift from God, but putting one’s self into His presence would certainly seem to make one more capable of hearing Him should He wish to speak.

As I said at the beginning though, if you do not feel called to it, please don’t try to force it. I say that somewhat selfishly from the standpoint that if you do so and get nothing from it, or have a bad experience, it would then likely cause you to become a witness against it based on that experience when it likely would not be the fault of the prayer at all. Certainly not everyone is called to it, just as not all are called to the rosary as their prayer style. But it is available to those who are called to it; and it is beneficial for those who are called and answer the call.

Peace to you, and my prayers are with you that God will lead you gently where He wants you.
 
Ncjohn,

So beautifully said, as always! :tiphat: Thank you!

I had another thought that may be worth mentioning. In every age there have been pseudo manifestations of the real thing, probably satan’s smoke screen. The sorry consequence is to believe ALL manifestations are therefore false.

Remember when Moses produced authentic signs from God for Pharoah? Well, what occured? – the magicians produced similar signs to keep Pharoah obstinate. In the middle ages, St. Teresa struggled with the Inquisition who felt that she was under the influence of the Quietists, the false mystics. There are false manifestations of authentic centering prayer as well. To label all prayer false or dangerous when it centers on God is just plain wrong and an error of those who do not experience the fullness of true prayer.
 
Same old topic, same old argument.

Why don’t those who are determind to practise CP do so as they choose and those who don’t think CP to be a good idea not practise it and then we shall have peace. There are plenty of threads about this topic and the apologists have answered the topic of CP in the ‘Ask an Apologist’ forum where a quick search will show up their answers.

I think it is most presumptious to suggest that those who don’t promote nor agree with CP have a lacking prayer life and are not so advanced. I think opinions like these would be better kept to oneself in the interests of charity and considering that people cannot know another’s heart nor their relationship with Jesus.

In the Living Prayer of my life
 
Same old topic, same old argument.

Why don’t those who are determind to practise CP do so as they choose and those who don’t think CP to be a good idea not practise it and then we shall have peace. There are plenty of threads about this topic and the apologists have answered the topic of CP in the ‘Ask an Apologist’ forum where a quick search will show up their answers.

I** think it is most presumptious to suggest that those who don’t promote nor agree with CP have a lacking prayer life and are not so advanced**. I think opinions like these would be better kept to oneself in the interests of charity and considering that people cannot know another’s heart nor their relationship with Jesus.

In the Living Prayer of my life
I would agree. If it were only a suggestion, especially.
But-I think some comments here have gone past that line and far into judgment.

Making me wonder if there is any benefit to it- it sure does not show much fruit.
 
I will say that if I saw myself as a spiritual giant then I truly am not. Every trace of humility has fled

In the Living Prayer of my life
 
From Ask an Apologist:
Prayer in the Christian life consists of the following:
  1. Vocal prayer (Our Father, liturgical prayers, personal prayer, group prayer, etc.)
  2. Meditation (Rosary, Chaplets, etc.)
  3. Contemplative prayer (a union with the prayer of Christ)
While it’s true that Christian prayer is always centered on Christ, the term ‘centering prayer’ can also refer to the eastern/new age style prayer techniques as taught by Fr. Father Basil Pennington and Fr. Thomas Keating, founders of the Centering Prayer Movement.
Centering prayer is a spirituality that incorporates Eastern methods of meditation.
Authentic Catholic spirituality has as its goal, union with God. It fosters holiness in the individual.
There are many authentic spiritualities in the Church, but each, if it is truly authentic, will possess the following characteristics:
  1. It will be Christ centered and Trinitarian
  2. It will acknowledge the cross of Christ and suffering as a part of discipleship
  3. It will encourage an awareness of sin, a turning away from it, and a trust in God’s mercy
  4. It encourages a sacramental life, especially the Eucharist.
  5. It encourages a disposition of obedience to Church teaching
  6. It is Marian
  7. It looks beyond this world to eternity.
Centering prayer is a method or technique whose advocates claim will result in contemplation for those who use the method properly. This is why it is often confused with contemplation or contemplative prayer. But contemplative prayer is not something we do. It is something we receive, not because of a method we follow but because of the life we lead.
Contemplative prayer is a gift from God, and most often a result of a life that has grown faithful through prayer and reflection of God’s word, is moral, participates in the sacraments, and is obedient to Church teaching.
f you’re referring to the “Centering Prayer” technique authored by Trappist Abbot Thomas Keating and Father Basil Pennington, I would urge extreme caution. This method of prayer is a dangerous fusion of non-Christian Eastern (Zen) mysticism and Christian meditation. It is not compatible with Catholic tradition. I suspect the Holy Father would not approve of this method of prayer.
The Church warns against blending Eastern (Zen) mysticism and Christian spirituality in the document Some Aspects of Christian Meditation:
  1. With the present diffusion of eastern methods of meditation in the Christian world and in ecclesial communities, we find ourselves faced with a pointed renewal of an attempt, which is not free from dangers and errors, “to fuse Christian meditation with that which is non-Christian.” Some use eastern methods solely as a psycho-physical preparation for a truly Christian contemplation; others go further and, using different techniques, try to generate spiritual experiences similar to those described in the writings of certain Catholic mystics.
    cin.org/users/james/files/meditation.htm.
Another disturbing aspect to Centering Prayer is it‘s New Age influence. We read in the document Jesus Christ the Bearer of the Water of Life that the “New Age imports Eastern religious practices piecemeal and re- interprets them to suit Westerners; this involves a rejection of the language of sin and salvation… Additionally, “some of the traditions which flow into New Age are: ancient Egyptian occult practices, Cabbalism, early Christian gnosticism, Sufism, the lore of the Druids, Celtic Christianity, mediaeval alchemy, Renaissance hermeticism, Zen Buddhism, Yoga and so on. (2.1)
ourladyswarriors.org/teach/newagereflect.htm
The following links were provided by the CAF Apologists:

How to be Catholic in the midst of dissent
AAA Link
Is Lectio Divina considered Centering Prayer? AAA Link
A Closer Look at Centering Prayer
LETTER TO THE BISHOPS OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH ON
SOME ASPECTS OF CHRISTIAN MEDITATION

New Age
 
I think it is most presumptious to suggest that those who don’t promote nor agree with CP have a lacking prayer life and are not so advanced. I think opinions like these would be better kept to oneself in the interests of charity and considering that people cannot know another’s heart nor their relationship with Jesus.
Somehow, I think this is directed to me, so I’ll try to correct this misunderstanding. I’m not aware that I or others stated anyone had a lacking prayer life. What I did infer, and will stand by, is that it is apparent some did not understand infused prayer. That being true, it would not be wise to believe writings that don’t correctly portray St. Teresa’s thought and then present these wrongful teachings to others.

We know from St. Teresa’s writings that many who simply practice vocal prayer alone can be very virtuous and pray very well according to the ability God has given them. They may even excel with greater purity of heart than those who have been granted a mystical prayer experience. However, that doesn’t mean they understand the mystical prayer experience sufficiently to pass judgment on its authenticity.

CP is not mystical prayer, I reiterate. If the opponents of it practiced this prayer and understood it by experience, they would know it is nothing comparable to the infused mystical prayer experience. And that is what I have seen not only in this thread, but others. It is simply not correct and is the root of much misunderstanding. The word ‘contemplation’ itself has many degrees of meaning. Used loosely in CP threads, it is no wonder the reader is left in mid-air and forms many misconceptions.

I agree with you, Blessedstar, as I concurred with Ncjohn, that each has his own path to God in prayer. No one should scorn others who practice this form of prayer and enter these threads with that terrible lack of charity and disdain over that which they do not understand.

Granted that even if a person tried to practice CP on their own and force it, as was mentioned earlier, they would hit a brick wall and it could harm them – temporarily. BUT, is God’s hand too short to save? My faith tells me this is not so. I trust the Good Shepherd to call those who are His own back to a form of prayer that is fruitful for them.

I know you rated this thread, and that you have been a strong opponent in past threads, but I hope you would keep an open mind with respect to those who practice it. (And I’m not one of them, but I accept this as an authentic prayer form for others.) Like you, I bitterly opposed it for a long time until we patiently worked through it, prayed hard, and really listened to what others were trying so hard to say. It finally clicked and I know my error.
 
How I Like to Envision “Centering Prayer”: Firmly Focused on Our Eucharistic Lord, King and CENTER of All Hearts

First, please allow me to quote not just one, but two Popes, and both in the same paragraph yet! 🙂 Pope John Paul II, and Pope Paul VI:
Jesus Christ stands at the CENTRE not just of the history of the Church, but also the history of humanity. In him, all things are drawn together (cf. Eph 1:10; Col 1:15-20). How could we forget the enthusiasm with which the Second Vatican Council, quoting Pope Paul VI, proclaimed that Christ is “the goal of human history, the focal point of the desires of history and civilization, the CENTRE of mankind, the joy of all hearts, and the fulfilment of all aspirations”? (1) The Council’s teaching gave added depth to our understanding of the nature of the Church, and gave believers a clearer insight not only into the mysteries of faith but also into earthly realities, seen in the light of Christ. In the Incarnate Word, both the mystery of God and the mystery of man are revealed.(2) In him, humanity finds redemption and fulfilment.
Quote taken from the
APOSTOLIC LETTER
MANE NOBISCUM DOMINE
OF THE HOLY FATHER
JOHN PAUL II
TO THE BISHOPS, CLERGY
AND FAITHFUL
FOR THE YEAR OF THE EUCHARIST,

which can be seen on the Vatican website:

vatican.va/holy_father/jo…domine_en.html

Please note that I added emphasis to the word “centre” by using caps, and that yes, “centre” is spelled in British English rather than the American “center.”

For truly worthy “centering prayer,” may I recommend the nearest Eucharistic Adoration Chapel, where you can gaze upon Jesus Truly Present, Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity? I know where I’d rather turn my gaze … to the Real Presence of Jesus, because where He is, there is Heaven!

~~ the phoenix
 
I want to make a correction to a statement I made in an earlier post.

Fr. Keating’s book, Open Mind Open Heart, does not have the imprimatur.

I was posting from work, and did not have the book in front of me. thought it did. I was thinking Thomas Merton’s works.

Thanks to ncjohn for pointing out my error. I stand corrected.

Jim
 
How I Like to Envision “Centering Prayer”: Firmly Focused on Our Eucharistic Lord, King and CENTER of All Hearts

First, please allow me to quote not just one, but two Popes, and both in the same paragraph yet! 🙂 Pope John Paul II, and Pope Paul VI:

Quote taken from the
APOSTOLIC LETTER
MANE NOBISCUM DOMINE
OF THE HOLY FATHER
JOHN PAUL II
TO THE BISHOPS, CLERGY
AND FAITHFUL
FOR THE YEAR OF THE EUCHARIST,

which can be seen on the Vatican website:

vatican.va/holy_father/jo…domine_en.html

Please note that I added emphasis to the word “centre” by using caps, and that yes, “centre” is spelled in British English rather than the American “center.”

For truly worthy “centering prayer,” may I recommend the nearest Eucharistic Adoration Chapel, where you can gaze upon Jesus Truly Present, Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity? I know where I’d rather turn my gaze … to the Real Presence of Jesus, because where He is, there is Heaven!

~~ the phoenix
That’s one of the articles I was lookin for!
 
Quote:
Open Mind, Open Heart is a great suggestion if you want to send someone running the other way. (no offense)
Open Mind Open Heart has the Imprimatur from the Church.

Its one of my favorite books.

Jim

Lots of books have Imprimaturs, which by the way are generally given by a Bishop not by the Church. This just means that the book is judged free from doctrinal error. If you read the rest of my post, I was not commenting on the doctrine contained in the book. I said that the book was written in a manner (style) that made CP sound kooky. I also said that I did NOT believe CP to be a kooky practice. Therefore, IMHO, the book would not be a good first read for someone who is investigating CP.
 
This thread blew up fast. I have found myself nearly hanging on the cross once, but fear of pride stopped it. This happened with a thought of “who would I like to be like”. It scared me senseless. And I was mortified that I could think I could be like Christ. I don’t know what would have happened if it had gone farther nor think it should have for me at that time. So I stay leary of going too far and what controls it, the self or God. And I was in a nuthouse for the week when it happened, so the Lord had arranged a controled environment.🙂 Tim
 
Somehow, I think this is directed to me, so I’ll try to correct this misunderstanding. I’m not aware that I or others stated anyone had a lacking prayer life. What I did infer, and will stand by, is that it is apparent some did not understand infused prayer. That being true, it would not be wise to believe writings that don’t correctly portray St. Teresa’s thought and then present these wrongful teachings to others.

We know from St. Teresa’s writings that many who simply practice vocal prayer alone can be very virtuous and pray very well according to the ability God has given them. They may even excel with greater purity of heart than those who have been granted a mystical prayer experience. However, that doesn’t mean they understand the mystical prayer experience sufficiently to pass judgment on its authenticity.

CP is not mystical prayer, I reiterate. If the opponents of it practiced this prayer and understood it by experience, they would know it is nothing comparable to the infused mystical prayer experience. And that is what I have seen not only in this thread, but others. It is simply not correct and is the root of much misunderstanding. The word ‘contemplation’ itself has many degrees of meaning. Used loosely in CP threads, it is no wonder the reader is left in mid-air and forms many misconceptions.

I agree with you, Blessedstar, as I concurred with Ncjohn, that each has his own path to God in prayer. No one should scorn others who practice this form of prayer and enter these threads with that terrible lack of charity and disdain over that which they do not understand.

Granted that even if a person tried to practice CP on their own and force it, as was mentioned earlier, they would hit a brick wall and it could harm them – temporarily. BUT, is God’s hand too short to save? My faith tells me this is not so. I trust the Good Shepherd to call those who are His own back to a form of prayer that is fruitful for them.

I know you rated this thread, and that you have been a strong opponent in past threads, but I hope you would keep an open mind with respect to those who practice it. (And I’m not one of them, but I accept this as an authentic prayer form for others)
I have declined to offer any opinion on CP in this thread because to flog an exhausted horse is pointless. People are repeatedly expounding the same arguments.

Yes I did rate the thread and I didn’t rate it for the subject matter but for the same old lack of kindness whilst debating it. CP is always disproportionately defended and I suppose that is because people who practise it feel very affectionate and attached towards the method they have chosen. Prayer is a deeply personal act between God and the soul and so I can see why people get so hot under the collar.

I don’t possess a closed mind and if you suggest this to me then suggest to those that practise CP don’t possess a closed mind either.

Understanding and practising prayer are two different things and are no indication of a persons deepness nor intimacy with God as God often choses the little ones to confound the wise. So if you think someone does not understand, that doesn’t mean that they don’t and it is no indication of their prayer life and you clearly did suggest this as I quote:

Her works are very difficult to grasp, and learned scholars and clergy in the Church have attempted [some unsuccessfully] to bring her teachings down to our level. But if one has not experienced supernatural prayer, her teaching will be Greek. I’m sorry you put so much weight on this article, but it tells me clearly that you have no practical experience with which to judge.

I think this thread is not helping the OP to see an answer to her question, but is typical of strewing uneducated darts with personal opposition due to not fully understanding either the contemplative concept in Catholic theology, nor centering prayer. As it is referred to here, it is NOT a mindless oriental technique, though some equate it with that due to ignorance of the true catholic prayer which centers with FULL mind on the indwelling Trinity.


Carole, you cannot know that about a person and I know you to be a good person, but you really shouldn’t have said that to someone.

In the Living Prayer of my life
 
Well, as I predicted, this thread turned out the way it has.

Not being wise enough, I was sucked right into the debate, which I did not want to be part of.

With that, I’m unsubscribing to this thread.

If you want to really learn about Centering Prayer, read Fr Keating’s works.

If you want to ask me more about it, send me a PM.

God Bless
Jim
 
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blessedstar:
I will say that if I saw myself as a spiritual giant then I truly am not. Every trace of humility has fled
Have you not read that humility is truth? Should a person pretend not to know, when the truth is otherwise? Especially when they are capable of helping another toward understanding? It is not the same as sounding a trumpet on a street corner.
 
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JimR-OCDS:
Well, as I predicted, this thread turned out the way it has.

Not being wise enough, I was sucked right into the debate, which I did not want to be part of.

With that, I’m unsubscribing to this thread.
I’m with you Jim. Charity has taken wing, as it always does with this topic.
 
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