Centering Prayer

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Not agreeing with someone is not being uncharitable. However the way a person disagrees or agrees amounts to whether they have charity in their hearts towards others.

And just because someone says something is a truth does not make it the Truth.

CP is a matter of opinion and until the Church states it is definitely to be practised or definietly not to be practised then it remains opinion. A method that people may possess an opinion on and may debate and may choose to practise and may choose not to practise, this doesn’t make it anything more than that.

So why the big fuss and why the big row?

People who do not practise CP nor read St Teresa’s works are not ignorant, they are not unlearned, they are people seeking Jesus and are being drawn by Him as are we all.

In the Living Prayer of my life
 
Joysong said:
I’m with you Jim. Charity has taken wing, as it always does with this topic.
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How has charity taken wing? The OP expressed concern about a practice that the Church has readily taken a stand about. Both sides of the argument were presented, with evidence.

Whether or not all evidence was successfully discussed, or discussed at all is an entirely different point.

It is now the OPs turn to make a decision.
 
blessedstar said:
CP is a matter of opinion and until the Church states it is definitely to be practised or definietly not to be practised then it remains opinion. A method that people may possess and opinion on and may debate and may choose to practise and may choose not to practise, this doesn’t make it anything more than that.

So why the big fuss and why the big row.

In the Living Prayer of my life
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The Church has made a statement. See post #49 and #51
 
Joysong said:
Have you not read that humility is truth? Should a person pretend not to know, when the truth is otherwise? Especially when they are capable of helping another toward understanding? It is not the same as sounding a trumpet on a street corner.
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The truth is no-one can come to the Father unless Jesus draw him, so no spiritual giants, not one of us, we are all dust drawn in prayer and blessed by grace.

Understanding is a gift of the Holy Spirit. I may say what I like, but it is not my job to convert nor is it my job to gift understanding.It is my job to seek that I may understand myself.

Oh Divine Master, grant that I may not
so much seek to be consoled as to console;
to be understood as to understand; to be loved
as to love; for it is in giving that we receive;
It is in pardoning that we are pardoned;
and it is in dying that we are born to Eternal Life."

In the Living Prayer of my life
 
One of the great paradoxes of the interior life is the more “advanced” the prayer becomes, the more “simple” it gets. Many words give way to a few words which give way to no words at all. In time, prayer becomes a simple, abiding sense of presence.

To use a poor analogy, the old married couple doesn’t need an excess of words to communicate . . . often, a simple glance toward each other will suffice. Newlyweds, on the other hand, practically gush. Same communication . . . just different expressions of it. And so it is with prayer. One way is not better than another . . . they’re just different.

St. Teresa and St. John often expressed frustration at their inability to explain this progression toward interior simplicity in prayer to those who’ve not experienced it personally (relying less and less on words, images and ideas in order to simply “be.”) The reason it can’t be explained is because it is the Holy Spirit Himself who teaches this way . . . and the experience of it will be as varied as the colors of the rainbow.

If the two Doctors of the Church on mystical prayer felt THEY couldn’t communicate their thoughts very well, just think how all us random posters on the internet must feel 🙂 So, for my part, perhaps it’s time to stop trying.

In closing I will say this: I know several of the posters here who are taking their leave of this thread very well and I can assure everyone that nothing was written from a judgemental or holier than thou attitude and I’m very sorry to see it taken that way. And simply talking about this - whether from the point of view of personal experience or book knowledge should not be interpreted as a lack of humility on the posters part. It is meant to be “sharing” in the hope the EVERYONE will be led to the goodness God promises.

Dave.
 
Dear Dave (DBT),

I had no intention of posting any further, but your words were drops of dew in a very heavy heart and I just had to thank you personally for your compassion. It amazes me how much the devil attacks a soul when they are their weakest moment, such as the death I just experienced. This week in particular, a number of circumstances have been really bitter and brutal. Thank God I recognize his vicious hand in all of it.

My final words to any who still read this thread —

View with spiritual eyes the posts from those who uphold the practice of CP that are filled with kindness, patience, truthfulness, and explanations that promote good prayer practices.

Now consider the posts of the opponents of CP and test the tree by the fruit.

It is brilliantly clear who it is that walks in Divine Light!

Carole
 
Why are people getting so bent out of shape over this technique? The OP has asked a simple question and yet it appears that whenever someone answers it someone else is offended by it. People who have knowledge about CP please answer the question without downplaying people who don’t practice it. People who don’t practice it, don’t be so defensive. Just give the pros and cons without biting each others heads off.
 
St_Gabriel said:
People who don’t practice it, don’t be so defensive. Just give the pros and cons without biting each others heads off.
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I like to be in a quiet place or sometimes being quiet myself. I had tried CP before for few times, but I kept on falling asleep after 15 min. 😃 Even when there was a choir practicing next room, I could still fall asleep. I want to be awake, and CP won’t help me.
 
water said:
I like to be in a quiet place or sometimes being quiet myself. I had tried CP before for few times, but I kept on falling asleep after 15 min. 😃 Even when there was a choir practicing next room, I could still fall asleep. I want to be awake, and CP won’t help me.
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That would be a definate con for those who suffer with narcolepsy. 😃
 
St_Gabriel said:
Why are people getting so bent out of shape over this technique? The OP has asked a simple question and yet it appears that whenever someone answers it someone else is offended by it. People who have knowledge about CP please answer the question without downplaying people who don’t practice it. People who don’t practice it, don’t be so defensive. Just give the pros and cons without biting each others heads off.
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What I have been seeing in this thread is that most of the people “against” CP give reasons but say go ahead if you want, because there is no authoritative FINAL decision, even if people have spoken out against it. On the other hand, most (not all) of the people “for” CP give thier reasons and then say anyone against it are somehow not as advanced, or spiritually immature or something.

Basically we are all brothers and sisters and after the same things, a better connection with God. Some of disagree on what brings about that connection but ultimately it is up to the individual to make the decision. We all know the positions now and have said our thoughts. Now do what you want and wait for a more athoritative position to come, if ever. Personally I have tried every method under the sun and I have never felt closer to God than after confession and then Communion at Mass. Nothing comes close in my experience.

I wish you all a wonderful and blessed Thanksgiving and Advent season!

Pax,
David:)
 
I really don’t like leaving threads on a bad note so I’m going to take one more stab at trying to explain what I’ve failed to do thus far in this thread. Regardless of what one thinks about CP, it can be easily explained within traditional Catholic mystical theology. In fact it can be explained in a single word . . . RECOLLECTION.

Earlier in this thread I posted this quote by St. John of the Cross from Book 3, Chapter 15 of “The Ascent of Mt. Carmel.” IMHO, a soul can’t be brought to an understanding of the meaning of RECOLLECTION without coming to terms with what he has to say:
What souls must do in order to live in perfect and pure hope in God is this: As often as distinct ideas, forms, and images occur to them, they should immediately, without resting in them, turn to God with loving affection, in emptiness of everything rememberable.
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As stated previously in this thread, advancing in prayer means becoming more and more simple in our approach to God. This quote by St. John is, again IMHO, the theology behind all I will now say. If nothing else comes from this post, let the reader ponder what the mystical Doctor has to say.

Now, I’m going to try and explain this quote by describing the progression toward simplicity in prayer that he describes by showing our movement THRU RECOLLECTION and TOWARD CONTEMPLATION. What I’m attempting to do is probably way above my pay grade and it very likely might crash and burn . . . but so be it. I’m making this post my Thanksgiving Day prayer.

Here’s the progression of things that slowly leaves words, images and ideas behind in order to simply “be.” I’ll use established Catholic sources as our guide:

• Let’s say a soul has been brought to a depth of love of God that the soul feels it can no longer leave God alone and unattended . . .even for the briefest of times. This soul feels drawn to pray without ceasing, to seek Him in all it’s thoughts, words and actions. Prayer becomes habitual . . . yet imperfect. For no matter how hard the soul tries, it will forget God from time to time. Conversation with God is sponataneous, free form and driven by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit in the present moment. This soul is practicing ACTIVE RECOLLECTION. (To learn more, see “The Practice of the Presence of God” by Brother Lawrence).

• With time this way becomes more established and the continual conversation with God matures. Wordy discourses become less and less frequent as the soul becomes drawn to brief 3-5 word meditations prayed repeatedly throughout the day, in all times and circumstances. In established Catholic teaching this is sometimes called the Prayer of Simplicity. Examples the soul might feel drawn to pray are typically the words of Christ, such as: “Thy will be done . . .” and “Learn of me . . .” This soul is practicing ACTIVE RECOLLECTION in a more simplified way. (To learn more, see “The Cloud of Unknowing.”)

• This continual prayer matures even more so that even these 3-5 word meditations on Christ are no longer necessary because a single word encompasses all the soul is trying to say. Everything might be reduced to “Jesus,” “Abba,” “love,” or “sin.” This soul is practicing ACTIVE RECOLLECTION in the most simplified way possible using words. This is the full depth of the teaching in “The Cloud of Unknowing” and what Fr. Keating, for better or worse, presents in his teaching on Centering Prayer.

• Now, let’s say the soul finds itself sitting before the tabernacle and no words come at all. Everything has been said that can be said – at least for this moment. In the words of the Saints, “I look at Him and He looks at me.” This soul is practicing ACTIVE RECOLLECTION in the most simplified, human way possible. Here the soul can go no further without God drawing the soul into infused contemplation itself.

To be continued . . .
 
. . . continued

• Let’s say this soul sitting before Christ in the tabernacle in a wordless way is drawn by Christ into a deeper, more mystical union with him . . . infused contemplative prayer itself. Recognizing this invitation, the eye’s close and the soul feels drawn into the depth of it’s being like “a turtle drawing into it’s shell” to quote St. Teresa. The soul has passed beyond active recollection and is now experiencing PASSIVE RECOLLECTION through the goodness of God’s grace. (To learn more, see chapter 28 of St. Teresa’s “Way of Perfection.”)

• This infused prayer deepens and the will becomes totally captivated in wonder, awe and love of Christ. But this is not yet full mystical prayer because the human is comingled with the divine - the other two faculties of the soul (intellect and memory) are plagued by distractions. The most the soul can do at such times, in the words of St. Teresa, is to return to a single word as our prayer like “gently puffing on a candle to keep the flame lit.” This is the INFUSED PRAYER OF QUIET. (To learn more see the 4th mansions in St. Teresa’s “Interior Castle.”)

• If God wills, this prayer becomes completely Divine. This occurs when all three faculties of the soul (intellect, will, memory) are suspended by God in SPIRITUAL SLEEP. There are no distractions and the soul could not think or pray with words even if it tried. The soul is completely immersed in love. This is the INFUSED PRAYER OF UNION. (To learn more see the 5th mansions in St. Teresa’s “Interior Castle.”)

• Now we leave the “ordinary” way of contemplation open to all souls and enter the realm of the “extraordinary.” Sometimes in this infused Prayer of Union, God will communicate in a very different way. This is where and how visions, locutions and revelations occur. (To learn more see the 6th dwelling of St. Teresa’s “Interior Castle.”)

• Also in this 6th dwelling (whether or not extraordinary phenomena occur) the soul enters the Night of Spirit and is purged of all its remaining sins, weaknesses and imperfections. The soul is now brought to the threshold of the transforming union: the perfect union of wills between God and the soul. And what exactly does this union of will entail? Well, simply refer back to what was written in the first bullet point to see. God and soul now converse continually . . . but no longer sporadically and imperfectly as when first starting out. And nothing of our “old self” remains . . . all that the soul wants is what God wants and vice versa.

So there it is . . . the best I can possibly do to explain the progression toward interior simplicity in prayer. Perhaps this will shed light for at least one soul reading to see where CP “fits in” the scheme of things and to realize that there is nothing to fear. If we could simply think of CP in the context of what it really is – RECOLLECTION – then I think much of the rancor over it in these discussions can be overcome. After all, it was St. Teresa herself who stated “the quickest way to the infused Prayer of Quiet is RECOLLECTION.”

May God bless all . . .
Dave.
 
Call me thick, call me unlearned, call me an idiot, call me someone who never experiences deep prayer, call me what you like but centering prayer has nothing to do with authentic Christian prayer and nothing to do with the writings of St Teresa or St John.

It is an erroneous method taught by Fr Keating and various bodies including EWTN, CAF Apologists etc have warned against its use and the promotion of it.

Evidence has been provided so I don’t understand why there is the continued singleminded promotion of it on the forums.

In the Living Prayer of my life
 
Thanks for that Dave. There are some who will say that contemplative prayer and centering prayer are not the same thing by what I have found on the subject on the net. By my limited experience, by the description I read of contemplative prayer, I have reached this before with no self effort, but as an intervention for conversion. The suspension of self and memory is what caught my eye the most in the description. So I may be coming from a different approach to this then some may, but found it was the Lord that did this to me, not something I willed because my self and was in no shape to be self guided at that point. I have the same problem with charismatic thought, in that it seems like there is a control technique or formula to make this happen. Maybe I’m misunderstanding both types of prayer, but I would think you can’t manipulate union, but that the Lord prompts the conversation in some way, then if you accept the grace to pray, He is the one who directs what happens and the soul responds. Not trying to instigate an arguement, but expressing why I have not tried centering prayer. Thanks, Tim
 
I. OBJECTIONS TO PRAYER

2726 In the battle of prayer, we must face in ourselves and around us erroneous notions of prayer. Some people view prayer as a simple psychological activity, others as an effort of concentration to reach a mental void. Still others reduce prayer to ritual words and postures. Many Christians unconsciously regard prayer as an occupation that is incompatible with all the other things they have to do: they “don’t have the time.” Those who seek God by prayer are quickly discouraged because they do not know that prayer comes also from the Holy Spirit and not from themselves alone.

2727 We must also face the fact that certain attitudes deriving from the mentality of “this present world” can penetrate our lives if we are not vigilant. For example, some would have it that only that is true which can be verified by reason and science; yet prayer is a mystery that overflows both our conscious and unconscious lives. Others overly prize production and profit; thus prayer, being unproductive, is useless. Still others exalt sensuality and comfort as the criteria of the true, the good, and the beautiful; whereas prayer, the “love of beauty” (philokalia), is caught up in the glory of the living and true God. Finally, some see prayer as a flight from the world in reaction against activism; but in fact, Christian prayer is neither an escape from reality nor a divorce from life.

2728 Finally, our battle has to confront what we experience as failure in prayer: discouragement during periods of dryness; sadness that, because we have "great possessions,"15 we have not given all to the Lord; disappointment over not being heard according to our own will; wounded pride, stiffened by the indignity that is ours as sinners; our resistance to the idea that prayer is a free and unmerited gift; and so forth. The conclusion is always the same: what good does it do to pray? To overcome these obstacles, we must battle to gain humility, trust, and perseverance.

from the Vatican Catechism page
 
**Dear S,

Centering prayer was devised by two American monks who were concerned that many Catholic young people were looking to eastern religions for meditation. So they attempted to offer a Christian version of such practice. The only problem is that it is not Christian. There is absolutely no evidence of emptying the mind in the history of Christian spirituality. For Zen Buddhists such emptiness leads to enlightenment.

Lectio Divina, on the other hand, comes from the monastic spirituality of the Catholic Church and has a long history. Its object, which goes far beyond “enlightenment,” is union with Jesus Christ. Your method of Lectio Divina is a bit of an accommodation for beginners. The traditional way of doing “Lectio” as the monks affectionately call it, is simply to let the passage speak to them. There is no attempt to make a movie in one’s mind. (But if this works for people, there is nothing wrong with doing it.) The object is to let God speak to us as He chooses. Sometimes this means going over the passage many times. The one thing that is most important is that the person NOT try to make something happen, allowing the Lord to speak when and how He chooses. How we bring ourselves to Lectio Divina is MOST important. Our inner preparation is almost as important as the actual reading. It is most important to let go and not try to accomplish anything. This can be the most difficult part of Lectio for us in our culture.

Today, despite that fact that it is bogus, Centering Prayer is synonymous with contemplative prayer for countless Catholics and Anglicans. This includes clergy as well. It is most unfortunate that those two monks chose to borrow from non-Christian religions when they had at their finger-tips the tried and true Lectio Divina from their own tradition.

For more, see:

ourladyswarriors.org/diss…nterprayer.htm

users.skynet.be/scourmont/Arm…lectio-eng.htm

Fr. Vincent Serpa, O.P.**

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=61531&highlight=centering+prayer
 
10. Both of these forms of error continue to be a “temptation for man the sinner.” They incite him to try and overcome the distance separating creature from Creator, as though there ought not to be such a distance; to consider the way of Christ on earth, by which he wishes to lead us to the Father, as something now surpassed; to bring down to the level of natural psychology what has been regarded as pure grace, considering it instead as “superior knowledge” or as "experience."

Such erroneous forms, having reappeared in history from time to time on the fringes of the Church’s prayer, seem once more to impress many Christians, appealing to them as a kind of remedy, be it psychological or spiritual, or as a quick way of finding God.11

**12. With the present diffusion of eastern methods of meditation in the Christian world and in ecclesial communities, we find ourselves faced with a pointed renewal of an attempt, which is not free from dangers and errors, “to fuse Christian meditation with that which is non-Christian.” Proposals in this direction are numerous and radical to a greater or lesser extent. Some use eastern methods solely as a psycho-physical preparation for a truly Christian contemplation; others go further and, using different techniques, try to generate spiritual experiences similar to those described in the writings of certain Catholic mystics.13 Still others do not hesitate to place that absolute without image or concepts, which is proper to Buddhist theory, 14 on the same level as the majesty of God revealed in Christ, which towers above finite reality. To this end, they make use of a “negative theology,” which transcends every affirmation seeking to express what God is, and denies that the things of this world can offer traces of the infinity of God. Thus they propose abandoning not only meditation on the salvific works accomplished in history by the God of the Old and New Covenant, but also the very idea of the One and Triune God, who is Love, in favor of an immersion "in the indeterminate abyss of the divinity."15 These and similar proposals to harmonize Christian meditation with eastern techniques need to have their contents and methods ever subjected to a thorough-going examination so as to avoid the danger of falling into syncretism. **

cin.org/users/james/files/meditation.htm
 
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