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AlanFromWichita
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So then you would agree with Obamaās spiritual director, that God should damn America for killing innocent people? Since thatās the same thing Voris is saying, and now you?
Perhaps God IS damning America, SO it elected a president who was trained by Jeremiah Wright to hate America, and Voris has just now figured that out? So we elected Obama to damn the country, rather than the country will be damned before Obama was elected. You never know, eh?
You know when I think the country earned its right to be damned? When Bush signed the post - 9/11 USA Patriot Act, with 98 Senators signing it. Donāt you think God might be more impressed at the evil our government plans to do, by a strongly bipartisan 98-1 vote for making this a slave state by officially moving toward martial law and undoing the Bill of Rights, than a barely-majority vote (51% - down from 52.9% in 2008) of yet another pro-choice candidate? It all fits together. Once the government gets up to speed on surveillance ā and their ācivic emergencyā preparedness where it will squash any attempts at protest, then is can dictate āmedicalā law any way it wants and nobody better even speak strongly against them. So first Bush ā acting religious ā completes the removal of the right to free speech, and now Obama goes to work on religion. They are a 1-2 punch. Maybe God has already damned America and the terrorists really were doing Godās will, and Bush and Obama were in place to do their part from over here?
Alan
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CaptFun
Guest
The mass conversion of Nineveh idea (from the book of Jonah), where a doomsaying prophet gives a dire warning to the city that in 40 days the Lord would destroy it completely - but the people from the King on down believe the warning, repent sincerely and stave off the destruction (for a while ā¦ Nineveh is gone now) is intriguing.
Since the idea is posted here ā¦ I was imagining the āJonahā of the implied proposition to be Michael Voris. Though his video didnāt quite go as far as the Jonah message.
Abortion of course is the worst of these sins. And in 40 years (as of this week) America has not gotten rid of the scourge but has kept it legal. Though in the beginning it wasnāt a majority of the US that clamored for legalization, but an artfully deceptive and emotional court case. Voris deduces that now a majority of Americans approve of abortion now that
the ballot box has entrenched some of its most zealous proponents in the highest of offices.
I sort of went the other route and remembered the intercession of Abraham for Sodom or Moses for the rebellious Israelites where God would have spared many for the sake of a minority of innocents. I must add that in both of those cases, Justice was later pronounced on many, and mercy granted to some. So the main point of Vorisā contention, that God may chastise the US ā¦ has precedent.
When I hear the words of the song āGod shed his grace on thee ā¦ā I must admit it is an idealistic verse. There are riches beyond measure here. Natural resources of every kind.
Unlike Israel and Judah, surrounded by hostile forces at all times (it seemed); the US has had no natural enemies at its doorstep ā¦ and oceans to cross for some nations that would have harmed her if they could have.
But the US has had its share of crises in the 237 years of her history too. Wars. Famines like during the dust bowl and depression. A civil war. Poverty scattered throughout the country and imported from the āwretched refuse ā¦ā of other countriesā āteeming shores.ā
Not to offhandedly contradict Michael, but perhaps to test the mettle of his proposition, I wonder why some of the best US Presidents had it so hard during their time of leadership.
Lincoln seemed to be a good man ā but presided over nothing but a fratricidal bloodbath until the last week or so of his life.
Herbert Hoover, one of the greatest humanitarians in history, had a short, almost cursed history as President ā with the stock market crashing before his first year was up.
Intellectually I could agree with you that perhaps bad times might humble a proud nation and make her turn back to God (as Nineveh did); but the innocent sometimes suffer with the guilty when āgraces are removedā. In a time when wars are fought with smart bombs to harm war making materials rather than people if it can be helped - we could pray for
the Lord to make distinctions ā¦ as Heād often done ā¦ or better yet - convert the hard hearted as Heās ALSO done.
Less sensational than Americaās scarlet sins (amplified due to her influence as a nation) is the historic charity of many of her people. Who volunteer, donate, and are the salt of the earth and light of the world in their neighborhoods, churches at work and at home.
I like Canada too, but notice that both countries have some leaders and groups that are boldly attacking the Church and believers as never before. The world has a bigger enemy than the US letās remember (not to avoid tending the garden of course):
Appreciate your (name removed by moderator)ut MidnightSun
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pnewton
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It has been a decade. Doesnāt feel like slavery. Perhaps we are so far removed we use this term as rhetoric and do not consider what real slavery was like.
No, I canāt believe the issue of the Patriot Act even compares as a mite to an elephant to abortion.
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AlanFromWichita
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The Patriot Act lays the foundation for the government to get more snoopy, more micromanaging, and more oppressive. You donāt notice it because itās gradual. But it sets the stage for removal of freedom of speech, and right of privacy. That naturally leads to the government removing freedom of worship, which is what they are trying to do now. These things have to be done in stages. See how much you can get the public to swallow, then let them recover a while and feed them the next bite. The more powerful the government gets, the more tenaciously she will protect Roe v. Wade; you cannot deny the Patriot Act was a huge empowerment to the government at the expense of civil rights.
Alan
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Shamati
Guest
It isnt just the abortions that is wrong with america. America has killed many civilian innocents in its aggressive wars for domination of natural resources. Sid you know that 1 million civilians has been slain in Iraq & that 50% of all iraqi children miss at least 1 parent? That america uses illegal depleted uranium bombs which in Iraq has resulted in many children being born in the areas affected being deformed from birth? America murders civilians in Pakistan by drones every week whose only crime is theyve been born in an area politically hostile to US domination? US classifies all males over 16 in villages ruled by Taliban in Pakistan as enemy combatants. To ask God to bless such a government would be insulting & the exact opposite of goodness
USA is āThe Great Babylonā of today as Rome was in the days of the apostles.
Still America also do give money to the third world for food but has lately increasingly favoured contraception & abortion sponsoring.
I pray for America to instead concentate all its efforts on helping the poor of the third world to rise & for all individuals if America to Bless & seek blessing & salvation in the Most Holy Trinity
USA is āThe Great Babylonā of today as Rome was in the days of the apostles.
Still America also do give money to the third world for food but has lately increasingly favoured contraception & abortion sponsoring.
I pray for America to instead concentate all its efforts on helping the poor of the third world to rise & for all individuals if America to Bless & seek blessing & salvation in the Most Holy Trinity
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pnewton
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Let us see what is known, realizing that sin only arises from acting on known evils
First, there is not yet, and wasnāt during the Iraqi War substantiation of any health effects from depleted uranium. It is chemically toxic, as is lead.
Second, civillians have not been targeted during the war. In fact, never in the history of warfare has such an effort be made to avoid targeting civillians, right down to approval of each bomb size at every target to accomplish the military goal and no more.
Third, DU is not illegal.
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Christine85
Guest
I generally like Michael Voris , he tells you what you need to hear, what is wrong with the truth?
I recently watched this video of his on Spiritual warfare, very eye opening
youtube.com/watch?v=B0CwcRJoe6A
I recently watched this video of his on Spiritual warfare, very eye opening
youtube.com/watch?v=B0CwcRJoe6A
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MidnightSun12
Guest
You bring up an interesting point.
Would you not agree that there can be debate over the legitimacy of military activity that cannot occur in the area of abortion and that this changes the relative immorality of the acts? In war and military operations, innocent people unfortunately die (and the individuals who wrongly carry out such acts will certainly be held accountable) but I believe there is a key moral difference between a government sanctioning military activity versus an intrinsic evil such as abortion:
"While the Church exhorts civil authorities to seek peace, not war, and to exercise discretion and mercy in imposing punishment on criminals, it may still be permissible to take up arms to repel an aggressor or to have recourse to capital punishment. There may be a legitimate diversity of opinion even among Catholics about waging war and applying the death penalty, but not however with regard to abortion and euthanasia."
- Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger
Obviously, it would be wonderful if Godās mercy would prevail and westerners would repent of the intrinsic evils associated with the sexual revolution the same way we did with slavery, but if that is not a part of Godās plan (and it does appear that we are barrelling down the road to hell with more and more momentum each day), is it not Just for God to extinguish the fuel from which the evil is burning to at least limit our societyās ability to further such evil?
If God did allow our society to continue down this path, would He not eventually have to apologize for Sodom and Gomorrah?
God bless!
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PRmerger
Guest
I donāt know exactly whatās āwrongā with him, but I do think itās quite telling that he has never been on Catholic Answers Live, nor are any of his materials promoted here at our home, CAFs.
shop.catholic.com/catalogsearch/result/?q=voris&op.x=0&op.y=0
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Shamati
Guest
To defend such actions is beyond repugnant. I donāt care of civlians wanst targeted, the same thing was said in the Vietnam war: ā.[5][6] R.J. Rummel estimated that 663,000 civilians died, from a range of between 486,000 and 840,000.[7]ā.
Do you see ANY other nation acting like the USA around the world?? NO! Not since the Soviet Union has there been a more aggressive and deadly force for Evil in the world
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pnewton
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I find comparing indirect death in war to the deliberate killing of innocent children morally repugnant and theologically ignorant. I do not see how any one claiming the name of Christian can make such an error.
I guess slamming an America is still a popular pasttime in Europe. If it was for the United States Europe would all be speaking German.
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CaptFun
Guest
Very challenging. Very different from the Vortex presentations which are newsmagazine-like.
The genre of a prayer meeting and presentation at what looks like a Catholic Church multipurpose room at a Parish, and the more prayerful relaxed beginning showed a different side of Michael I thought.
The most challenging part I thought were the quote upon quote of Church Fathers of the subject of Hell - and how many taught that āfew are saved!ā Which is something, yes, Jesus says ā¦ but less specifically (it can seem).
Spiritual Warfare was a good umbrella term for what this talk was about. It seemed rather a spiritual āBig Pictureā presentation about our common human destiny and the importance of availing ourselves of the graces found in the Church and her Sacraments ā¦ and confronting a world that seems hell-bent for destruction while the Church is scrupling with politeness and niceties (when in all charity a trumpet blast of warning ā¦ and lives led in
example of grace ā¦ are what is needed more than sighing as some around us bumble their way into irreparable destruction ā¦ here and perhaps hereafter.
The show of hands that revealed almost every family had members whoād left the Church
(for gosh knows where ā¦ atheism? agnosticism? another denomination?) established that it was more than just a Michael Voris critique of the Church being presented. There were
problems to be studied, assessed, and remedied somehow ā¦ and a look to the Catholic Church for the answers. And that look was back to a time before the rash of defections - and ultimately all the way back to Christ and the early Church. I may watch this again. The facts and propositions came quite quickly even though it wasnāt in the 5 minute Vortex editorial form.
The recounting of the Catholic martyrs to modern day Communists is humbling. And it does shame one into admitting that often when a good witness to Christ is needed for the good of all ā¦ we hold back so as not to risk the raised eyebrow, social leprosy of being a "religious nutā, or suffering any loss for trying to save or help a soul who is at risk and in our perimeter.
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Shamati
Guest
The arrogance of Americans regarding the cost in human lives for their governments adventurous expeditions is what makes the many people recent the nation itself. I hate not america, but I find it an immoral behaviour to first of all illegally (under international law, which the US seems to disregard in case after case) invade another nation (Iraq). Google āwhite phosphorous or Depleted Uranium in Iraqā and behold,
By their fruits you shall know them, said our Lord. My own position is that war may only be moral if you are under a direct threat of annihilation.
But even under such a threat I would personally turn the other cheek and suffer death as best I can (through I dont know how my instincts would behave in such a situation).
People hate America because it has itās nose in every other nations bussiness and it is inconsistent in its demands on certain nations. For example Israel has 300+ un-admitted Nuclear warheads and is the only obstacle towards establishing a nuclear-free-zone in the middle-east, which is supported by a majority of world-opinion, including that in the iddle-east. Yet USA, together with Israel feel they have the right to demand Iran to suspend some of their legal rights to nuclear-energy. Iran has not attacked another nation in at least 100+ years.
I love what USA used to be and what it used to stand for, but think it has turned into just another Empireā¦
How can one adapt christianity to support such wars? Even illegal wars? I feel that evangelical americanized christianity is an āEmpire-religionā
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pnewton
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Rather than argue with you when we obviously disagree, I would like to correct this one misconception. Turning the other cheek has zero to do with self-defense. It never did. It would have been silly to think that Roman soldiers went around slapping people to death. Rather, the soldiers were limited to what they inflict (without orders, on their own) to the local people. They could slap them, but only one. The could compel them into service as porters, but only for a mile.
This idea that we should turn the other cheek is a call to embrace humiliation rather than suffer from anger or retaliate against someone. I do think there is a possibility to bear witness to the love of God by being willing to die rather than kill another to save yourself, but it is not called for, and one does have a right to self-defense.
As to the justice of the war in Iraq, I am inclined to agree with you to a large degree, but can not agree that it was waged unjustly, if you catch my nuance. Depleted Uranium is a kinetic weapon, as opposed to chemical or nuclear. Thatās the depleted part. The same argument made against it can be made against lead bullets. Bombs, as I said, were weighed individually to avoid excess in civilian casualties. This was the first time this has ever been done in history. So I can not agree that āevilā applies, except in the sense that all war is evil.
If you are a pacifist in the absolute sense, then I applaud you on that. Realize though that Catholic theology allows this, but does not require it. Scripture likewise has evidence of both the virtue of peace and the virtue of justice. I did notice that you toned down the words a little bit and I do appreciate that.
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Shamati
Guest
Have you not seen the leaked videos of the targeting of civilians? This was not a just war as there is no such thing as a just war. I know americans tend to see things in a different way & the many americans unvawering and full support, economical, moral and legal (UN) for Israel is a clear marker on just how different american people and government views the situation in the middle-east contra the rest of the world.
Todayās situation regarding the middle-eastern affairs is reminiscent of the days of apartheid South Africa when US was its governments sole supporter in the international community. WHen they withdrew it it collapsed within 2 years
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pnewton
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I do not need leaked video. I have personal knowledge of how the targeting was done. I can not be convinced by someone who is obviously on the extreme of this issue.
Catholic theology allows for a just war. That is a billion people across the world. I submit that your degree of pacifism is the rarity in the world, not the American view.
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clem456
Guest
I always hear this as the go-to defense of this guy. He speaks the truth. Whoopeee.
Luke 4:3
Luke 4:9
Luke4:10-11
The devil quoting the truth of scripture!!!
Luke 4:33-34
Luke 4:41
Isnāt it interesting, that the demons express the truth of who Christ is before any human.
I find that fascinating.
So, evidently the truth is nothing without charity and other virtues. (Obedience and respect for authority perhaps?) Worse than nothing, it can be used for deception, division, and scandal etcā¦
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MidnightSun12
Guest
While the devil can quote scripture and mis-use the Truth that is our Blessed Lord when it serves his evil desires, how do you know Michael Voris is the one who is representing the devil? What if those forces within the Church who oppose Vorisā message are actually the ones who are distorting the word of God and mis-using the concept of chairty to justify vagueness in conveying the Churchās infallible teachings? (which are necessary to help souls get to heaven)
At the end of the day, a good way to know which side is representing God and which side is representing the devil is to look at the Saints and see which side they are on. I have to be honest, Michael Vorisā willingness to preach on the dangers of sin, the reality that few will make it to heaven, and his general tendency to talk in absolute black and white terms is a lot closer to the writings of the Saints then what we see from the vast majority of preists and bishops today.
For example, to quote a great Saint:
"Sinners, the advice I want to give you will no doubt seem strange to you; but if you understand it well, it is, on the contrary, inspired by tender compassion toward you. I implore you on my knees, by the blood of Christ and by the Heart of Mary, change your life, come back to the road that leads to heaven, and do all you can to belong to the little number of those who are saved. If, instead of this, you want to continue walking on the road that leads to hell, at least find a way to erase your baptism. Woe to you if you take the Holy Name of Jesus Christ and the sacred character of the Christian engraved upon your soul into hell! Your chastisement will be all the greater. So do what I advise you to do: if you do not want to convert, go this very day and ask your pastor to erase your name from the baptismal register, so that there may not remain any remembrance of your ever having been a Christian; implore your Guardian Angel to erase from his book of graces the inspirations and aids he has given you on orders from God, for woe to you if he recalls them! Tell Our Lord to take back His faith, His baptism, His sacraments."
- St. Leonard of Port Maurice
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october_baby
Guest
Comparing Michele Voris to satan? Pot/kettle anybody?
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