Certain video too uncharitable toward Martin Luther?

[hn160]

I haven’t shopped for a protestant bible in a while, but recently, I shopped for a protestant
bible from CBD and there were NO protestant bible with the cut text. As a matter of fact,
when I was a protest the only protestant bible I found with the cut text, the Oxford Study
Bible, and that was an accident. The bottom line is that the MAJORITY of protest bibles DO NOT have the cut texts, my guess is they are considered " catholic".

If you want to shop for a non-Catholic Bible, the Missouri Synod Lutherans have a new study Bible - The Lutheran Study Bible with Notes ( ESV) and The Apocrypha, The Lutheran Edition with Notes. These are very good editions.

 

[october_baby]

If you want to shop for a non-Catholic Bible, the Missouri Synod Lutherans have a new study Bible - The Lutheran Study Bible with Notes ( ESV) and The Apocrypha, The Lutheran Edition with Notes. These are very good editions.

I’m sorry if I gave you the wrong idea, my point was a lot of protestants have no idea that there is such a thing as Apocypha ( I know I didn’t, until my third year as a christian.) My point was that whether you agree with Michael Voris’s claim that Luther removed books from the catholic bible, that ALL protestant denominations removed the Apocrypha and don’t
teach on it.(with some exceptions to some Lutheran sects.)

 

[JonNC]

=october baby;9996389]Nice sarcasm, I cannot ask the people who cut books out of the bible because according
to you this was done about 150 years ago

It wasn’t mean as sarcasm. sorry you took it that way. what I meant was you have to talk with members of protestant communions who have determined that the D-C’s have no place in scripture. Lutherans don’t - or shouldn’t - take that stand.

The successors of Luther were the protestants who came after him who cut the books.

And there’s an important point. If they don’t confess the Augsburg Confession, they’re not successors of Luther and the Lutheran Reformation. They are of other communions.

I’m not defending Voris if he’s wrong, I’m doubtful
that he is, but, the point i’m trying to make, is that protestants HAVE cut books from the bible.

From what I recall of the video, he was talking about Luther, mentioned his name. That’s where he is wrong.

As far as the Eastren Orthadox goes, to my knowelege, the east had the same bible as the roman catholics (Jeromes Vulgate) until the east - west schism later in the 1st
century. (sorry for the spelling, my spell checker is not working.)

I will let the Orthodox contend whether or not the books they include, and it varies, that are not in the Western Bible, only appeared after the Schism.

Jon

 

[hn160]

I’m sorry if I gave you the wrong idea, my point was a lot of protestants have no idea that there is such a thing as Apocypha ( I know I didn’t, until my third year as a christian.) My point was that whether you agree with Michael Voris’s claim that Luther removed books from the catholic bible, that ALL protestant denominations removed the Apocrypha and don’t
teach on it.(with some exceptions to some Lutheran sects.)

Lutherans are hardly a sect, no more than we would call the Roman Church a sect.

 

[Dave_Noonan]

As far as the Eastren Orthadox goes, to my knowelege, the east had the same bible as the roman catholics (Jeromes Vulgate) until the east - west schism later in the 1st
century. (sorry for the spelling, my spell checker is not working.)

The various Eastern Churches have always different Bibles than the Roman Catholics, and they didn’t use Jerome’s Vulgate because they don’t/didn’t read Latin. They primarily used the Greek (Septuagint), Ethiopic or Syriac translations.

There differences between the various Bibles are nicely summarized here, but you will need to scroll down:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_canon

I assume you are speaking of the east-west schism of the 11th and not 1st century? Because that only involved the Roman and Byzantine churches…

 

[Dave_Noonan]

I haven’t shopped for a protestant bible in a while, but recently, I shopped for a protestant
bible from CBD and there were NO protestant bible with the cut text. As a matter of fact,
when I was a protest the only protestant bible I found with the cut text, the Oxford Study
Bible, and that was an accident. The bottom line is that the MAJORITY of protest bibles DO NOT have the cut texts, my guess is they are considered " catholic".

I have no idea what the proportionate count is necessarily. Most if not all Bibles publishing the NRSV will contain them (mainly used by mainline denominations and for scholarly study in university classes–e.g. HarperCollins or Oxford) and most other versions marketed primarily to evangelicals (NIV etc.) will not. CBD generally markets material for evangelicals.

 

[guanophore]

I will let the Orthodox contend whether or not the books they include, and it varies, that are not in the Western Bible, only appeared after the Schism.

Jon

There were very few biblical scholars in the West that had the ancient Eastern text, much less the ability to read the languages. The Eastern OT canon was received through the Jews of the diaspora in those regions. Just as the Palestinian Christians followed the lead of the Apostles to adopt the Septuagint, so the Christians further East received the Jewish ancient texts used in the synagogues written in Syriac and other languages.

Those texts were used and considered authorative for centuries prior to the coming of Jesus, and most definitely more than a millenia before the schism.

 

[JonNC]

There were very few biblical scholars in the West that had the ancient Eastern text, much less the ability to read the languages. The Eastern OT canon was received through the Jews of the diaspora in those regions. Just as the Palestinian Christians followed the lead of the Apostles to adopt the Septuagint, so the Christians further East received the Jewish ancient texts used in the synagogues written in Syriac and other languages.

Those texts were used and considered authorative for centuries prior to the coming of Jesus, and most definitely more than a millenia before the schism.

Thanks, Guan,
That’s what I thought. In fact, the variations of the canon are not related to the Schism, but are much older than that.

Jon

 

[JonNC]

This thread gave me incentive to view a couple of Voris’s other videos, such as
youtube.com/watch?v=3Ge-A059DOo&playnext=1&list=PL0E32E3C329881B80&feature=results_video

While not “uncharitable”, it is flat-out false. He says, “Luther called it consubstantiation,…”. (If he were here, I’d ask for his source - where Luther is quoted as saying this.)

Now, either Mr. Voris is just ignorant on this, or he is simply practicing in anti-Luther polemics, where the message is more important, in his view, than properly and honestly presenting Luther’s POV. Further, I suspect he hasn’t read the lutheran Confessions or this:
prounione.urbe.it/dia-int/l-rc/doc/e_l-rc_eucharist.html

Now, I’m not singling out Mr. Voris, as there are plenty on both sides of the Tiber that, how shall I say, paint the facts to the color they prefer.

Jon

 

[october_baby]

This thread gave me incentive to view a couple of Voris’s other videos, such as
youtube.com/watch?v=3Ge-A059DOo&playnext=1&list=PL0E32E3C329881B80&feature=results_video

While not “uncharitable”, it is flat-out false. He says, “Luther called it consubstantiation,…”. (If he were here, I’d ask for his source - where Luther is quoted as saying this.)

Now, either Mr. Voris is just ignorant on this, or he is simply practicing in anti-Luther polemics, where the message is more important, in his view, than properly and honestly presenting Luther’s POV. Further, I suspect he hasn’t read the lutheran Confessions or this:
prounione.urbe.it/dia-int/l-rc/doc/e_l-rc_eucharist.html

Now, I’m not singling out Mr. Voris, as there are plenty on both sides of the Tiber that, how shall I say, paint the facts to the color they prefer.

Jon

Once again I did’t find anything wrong or hateful. One, Voris pointed out that protestants
taught constabstion. Two, he admitted that Luther believed in flawed version of transstabstion.(sorry about the spelling, I don’t know about the spelling of those words.
hopefully, you understand what I mean.) Third, and most importantly, Voris pointed out that if Luther had stayed in the catholic church we wouldn’t have 33,000 heresies and
different doctrine. And I don’t want to hear about corruption in the catholic church.
The Council of Trent and verious saints took care of that. As far as that Lutheran statement
goes, This was a joint statement of catholic and lutheran churchs made around the time of Vatican II. Not the 500 years after the reformation that Voris was referring too.

 

[JonNC]

=october baby;10012002]Once again I did’t find anything wrong or hateful.

Wrong, not hateful.

One, Voris pointed out that protestants taught constabstion.

I don’t know any communion that actually teaches consubstantiation. Most are in the spiritual presence or symbolic presence camps.

Two, he admitted that Luther believed in flawed version of transstabstion.(sorry about the spelling, I don’t know about the spelling of those words.
hopefully, you understand what I mean.)

Don’t worry about the spelling. Its no problem. As I recall, he said it was a flawed version of the real presence.

Third, and most importantly, Voris pointed out that if Luther had stayed in the catholic church we wouldn’t have 33,000 heresies and different doctrine

The fact is most protestant groups (the 33,000 number is irrelevent) do not come from Lutheranism. Almost none are splits from Lutheranism. They more often come from Reformed, anaBaptist, etc.

And I don’t want to hear about corruption in the catholic church. The Council of Trent and verious saints took care of that.

I wasn’t going to bring it up.

As far as that Lutheran statement
goes, This was a joint statement of catholic and lutheran churchs made around the time of Vatican II. Not the 500 years after the reformation that Voris was referring too.

Perhaps Mr. Voris missed the level of progress between us?

Jon

 

[Megan7]

Is this episode of The Vortex too uncharitable toward the late Martin Luther?

Thanks

 

[Megan7]

Check this out, people.

 

[Megan7]

No, it was very charitable! Blunt but charitable. Michael Voris presented facts in the video. Martin Luther is one of the greatest heretics in the history of Christianity. One of the great and most harmful divisions within Christianity, Protestantism, rest squarely upon Luther’s shoulders. The doctrines of “Faith Alone” and “Scripture Alone” must be considered the two of the greatest heresies ever since both are still actively believed my millions of people.

Heresies are obstacles on the road to salvation. It is extemely uncharitable of any Catholic to not point out that Protestantism is a heresy. As Michael Voris might say, It is not “nice” of you to not point out that Protestant doctrines are heresy. So be nice and charitable and spread the true teachings of Jesus Christ that comes only from the Holy Catholic Church.

Ran Pleasant

Thanks:thumbsup: God bless Michael Voris, I love his videos!

 

[JonNC]

Thanks:thumbsup: God bless Michael Voris, I love his videos!

I’ll second the prayer that God bless Mr. Voris. I just wish he were more accurate.

Jon

 

[RobbyS]

I think his videos are too uncharitable and never subscribed because I feel his videos are meant to produce uncharitable feelings towards protestantism and protestants, which doesn’t really accomplish anything.

Luther was a gifted man and quite sincere in his errors, as was Arius. His career was certainly distructive. One of his biographers has a very favorable view of the man and his career, but has to ask the question: would Europe have been better off if Martin Luther had been executed in 1520? A qualified “Yes.”

 

[RobbyS]

Wrong, not hateful.

I don’t know any communion that actually teaches consubstantiation. Most are in the spiritual presence or symbolic presence camps.

Don’t worry about the spelling. Its no problem. As I recall, he said it was a flawed version of the real presence.

The fact is most protestant groups (the 33,000 number is irrelevent) do not come from Lutheranism. Almost none are splits from Lutheranism. They more often come from Reformed, anaBaptist, etc.

I wasn’t going to bring it up.

Perhaps Mr. Voris missed the level of progress between us?

Jon

Luther’s doctrine was consubstantiation, which sought to reserve his belief in the Real Presence. Most denominations follow Zwingli who was a rationalist. Even Calvin, to my surprise came much closer to the Catholic doctrine. Some Lutherans believe in the Real Presence, but only during Communion. The Calvinists Churches are more Zwinglian than Calvinist in their. teachings.

 

[RobbyS]

If you want to shop for a non-Catholic Bible, the Missouri Synod Lutherans have a new study Bible - The Lutheran Study Bible with Notes ( ESV) and The Apocrypha, The Lutheran Edition with Notes. These are very good editions.

The original King James had the Apocrypha. Why the book of Wison does not make their cut is beyond me. It is so proto-Christian.

 

[GKC]

Jon, do you have some posts saved, for more economical replies, over time? I do, myself.

GKC

 

[JonNC]

Jon, do you have some posts saved, for more economical replies, over time? I do, myself.

GKC

I should learn this economy, shouldn’t I?

Jon