Certainty (or uncertainty) in salvation

[truthseekerjay]

Catechism:

1452 When it arises from a love by which God is loved above all else, contrition is called “perfect” (contrition of charity). Such contrition remits venial sins; it also obtains forgiveness of mortal sins if it includes the firm resolution to have recourse to sacramental confession as soon as possible.

Unfortunately, this doesn’t answer if you can be certain that you actually performed a perfect contrition. Can you be certain that you perform a perfect contrition?

If you knew you were guilty of mortal sin, haven’t gone to confession, and CAN’T be sure that you performed a perfect contrition, then there must be something else (not perfect contrition) that should give you peace of mind, right?

 

[truthseekerjay]

It’s not an “exception.” God forgives everyone who is on their way to Confession, or who has made a plan to go to Confession.

So if the Buddhist TRULY became repentant and TRULY wanted to confess, then God would do the same for him too?

 

[jmcrae]

So if the Buddhist TRULY became repentant and TRULY wanted to confess, then God would do the same for him too?

If he was intending to join the RCIA and had a Baptism date set (even if it was two years away) then yes.

 

[Bookcat]

Unfortunately, this doesn’t answer if you can be certain that you actually performed a perfect contrition. Can you be certain that you perform a perfect contrition?

If you knew you were guilty of mortal sin, haven’t gone to confession, and CAN’T be sure that you performed a perfect contrition, then there must be something else (not perfect contrition) that should give you peace of mind, right?

We are not given the kind of certainty with such that you wish to have.

Would I have “peace of mind”? no I do would not think so. Not til after confession and absolution.

Should I? No I do not think so.

What would I have?

I would still have Faith and Hope…

What I would know is that Jesus Christ is the Good Shepherd and that he loves me and desires that I have life.

And I would cry out in prayer to him - “Jesus Good Shepherd - save your sheep”

I would seek the grace of perfect contrition

And seek out confession.

 

[Bookcat]

The Buddhist would be in the section of Hell

If he was intending to join the RCIA and had a Baptism date set (even if it was two years away) then yes.

Yes a Buddhist can be saved…even if he has never heard the name of Jesus. Jesus can save in ways one does not know…

We do not know that persons soul. God does -we do not.

 

[Bookcat]

Unfortunately, this doesn’t answer if you can be certain that you actually performed a perfect contrition. Can you be certain that you perform a perfect contrition?

If you knew you were guilty of mortal sin, haven’t gone to confession, and CAN’T be sure that you performed a perfect contrition, then there must be something else (not perfect contrition) that should give you peace of mind, right?

We are not given the kind of certainty with such that you wish to have.

Would I have “peace of mind”? no I do would not think so. Not til after confession and absolution.

Should I? Likely not.

What would I have?

I would still have Faith and Hope…

What I would know is that Jesus Christ is the Good Shepherd and that he loves me and desires that I have life.

And I would cry out in prayer to him - “Jesus Good Shepherd - save your sheep”

I would seek the grace of perfect contrition

And seek out confession.

 

[jmcrae]

Yes a Buddhist can be saved…even if he has never heard the name of Jesus. Jesus can save in ways one does not know…

We do not know that persons soul. God does -we do not.

I thought that for the sake of the experiment, we were eliminating extraordinary interventions from God, but just going by the observable evidence.

 

[truthseekerjay]

Bookcat and jmcrae, both of you have implied in some way or another that if you knew you were guilty of a mortal sin, but didn’t go to confession right away, that you would have some sense of security (in case you were to die) due to God’s love and/or your true desire to confess. Is this correct?

If this is true, wouldn’t you say that faith in God and having a TRULY repentant heart provides more security of salvation then the actual physical act of confession? What I mean is that, with the act of confession, you really only have security of salvation until you sin. However, a TRULY repentant heart and a desire to confess is what extends that security of salvation. Here’s a visual representation (consider all the blue areas as having security of salvation and the red areas as uncertainty).

without a truly repentant heart:
sin sin sin sin confession sin sin sin sin sin confession sin sin sin sin sin sin sin sin confession

with a heart of TRUE repentance:
sin sin sin sin confession sin sin sin sin sin confession sin sin sin sin sin sin sin sin confession

Don’t get me wrong. I’m NOT advocating that a person skip out on confession. However, it just seems to me that a truly repentant heart is a better shield from punishment than the physical act of confession.

 

[Bookcat]

Bookcatyou have implied in some way or another that if you knew you were guilty of a mortal sin, but didn’t go to confession right away, that you would have some sense of security (in case you were to die) due to God’s love and/or your true desire to confess. Is this correct?

No I would not use the word “security”.

Rather – Faith and Hope.

A turning to Jesus the Good Shepherd.

 

[wmw]

A repentant heart is necessary for an act confession. If the sins are not repented of they are not forgiven. Confession avails the person nothing with out being repentant. Confession should be removed from the first line for it is not anything if it is not repentant.

Sacraments are acts that signify a reality. If a person REALLY didn’t want to marry even though they went through the ceremony the marriage isn’t sacramental. That’s why there are such things as annulments. When you are not truly repentant of sin you similarly don’t have a sacramental confession.

 

[Bookcat]

Bookcatyou have implied in some way or another that if you knew you were guilty of a mortal sin, but didn’t go to confession right away, that you would have some sense of security (in case you were to die) due to God’s love and/or your true desire to confess. Is this correct?

I would rather use the words --* Faith and Hope*.

A turning to Jesus the Good Shepherd. “Jesus Good Shepherd - save your sheep”.

If this is true, wouldn’t you say that faith in God and having a TRULY repentant heart provides more security of salvation then the actual physical act of confession? What I mean is that, with the act of confession, you really only have security of salvation until you sin. However, a TRULY repentant heart and a desire to confess is what extends that security of salvation. Here’s a visual representation (consider all the blue areas as having security of salvation and the red areas as uncertainty).

without a truly repentant heart:
sin sin sin sin confession sin sin sin sin sin confession sin sin sin sin sin sin sin sin confession

with a heart of TRUE repentance:
sin sin sin sin confession sin sin sin sin sin confession sin sin sin sin sin sin sin sin confession

Don’t get me wrong. I’m NOT advocating that a person skip out on confession. However, it just seems to me that a truly repentant heart is a better shield from punishment than the physical act of confession.

No I would not agree with the various things written above.

Part of confession is yes repentance. That is part of the heart of confession. One must be repentant (at least say out of fear of hell) for confession.

But Confession is a* Sacrament* where my repentance (already a work of the Holy Spirit) - is met with the mercy of God - met with *Absolution * -by the blood of Christ - the kind of share again in the Resurrection of Christ…a renewal in a way of Baptism. My sin is met with the overwhelming reality of Absolution. No “feeling” need of course needs to occur - but the *reality *is there. Indeed a "spiritual resurrection" takes place (CCC 1468) In the Sacrament.

Now yes of course have a repentant heart - and as was noted if one has a repentant heart out of love of God above all (again not about any needed feelings) and a resolution to confess as soon as possible - that is already the grace of being restored to grace by God.

Yes *a repentant heart *is to be had always - and God can restore one “on the way” to confession - there can already be that contrition of love.

And Jesus came for sinners…the Good Shepherd for the wounded or lost sheep…

But the ways the question was put I would not put that way. But give great emphasis on the reality of the grand Sacrament of Penance - where God overwhelms us like the Father in the Prodigal son…and more so.

 

[Ignatius]

Tell them “Go to confession, confess your sins. Stop obsessing over what sins you might commit. Enjoy being in Christ and if you have questions, ask about them next time you go to confession.”

That’d be my advice for you too.
But simply going to confession doesn’t answer my question.

It will after you discuss the issue with the priest in confession. The Grace of the sacrament has a lot to do with opening ones eyes.

 

[JoeT777]

When I was younger, the concept of reconciliation seemed very simple. You commit a sin. You receive absolution during confession. You are in a state of grace. If you die, you will attain salvation.

It was like getting dirty. You take a bath when you get dirty. You get clean and after, you can go to bed. However, as I grow in my walk, I feel that the situation might actually be more complicated and I wonder if I remain in a state of grace long enough for it to matter.

Let’s say I confess on Saturday. By Tuesday, if I’m honest with myself, I would say that my soul has already been stained by sin. Most people say not to worry because most of those sins are PROBABLY venial, but can one really accurately assess if they’ve committed a mortal or venial sin? I know that the requirements for mortal sin are full knowledge, full intent, and highly serious sin, but since we can easily deceive ourselves, can we accurately assess for ourselves the extent of knowledge, intent, and gravity?

As for gravity, I wouldn’t think that looking lustfully at a woman would be considered adultery, but Jesus apparently did, so other trivial sins from a human standpoint may actually be more serious. As for knowledge, I don’t really think that we can say, “I didn’t know a particular action was grave and so that’s way I did it.” If this were true, then mortal sin would pretty much be non-existent. I would think that the majority of people, in their right mind and who have any sort of concern for their relationship with God, wouldn’t do something that they knew was going to be grave. As for intent and being in the right mind, I feel that we can definitely deceive ourselves and say that we weren’t thinking at the time, but I don’t know if that reasoning would hold up with God.

Anyway, from a salvation standpoint, does the confession on Saturday really matter (considering that if I died in a car accident on Tuesday, my soul would already have been stained)? Should I be viewing the situation differently?

Just to be clear, it’s not like I’m sinning rampantly. In fact, I can ALMOST say that I don’t violate any of the ten commandments like the man in Luke 18, who said the same thing to Jesus, but left sad, when Jesus told him to sell his stuff. The man actually violated the first commandment by idolizing wealth over God. I’m not saying that wealth is bad or that I’m sinning by not selling my stuff, but I do have to admit that there are things in my life that I put above God every day, causing me to violate the first commandment.

Let me suggest that you may be placing “certainty” mostly in a grace already received - making hope something similar to superstition. Since hope looks to the future, let me suggest certainty of faith is found in God’s omnipotence and mercy which is our hope. It is in faith we come to know the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things yet obtained. [Cf. Hebrews 11:1]. It is in the certainty contained in hope that even those without grace, can hope to find faith; “hope “says St. Thomas Aquinas, “tends to its end with certainty, as though sharing in the certainty of faith which is in the cognitive faculty.” Hope, then, is a movement toward, or a vision of, a thing we’ve yet to obtain, “the flower of our faith” [John H. Stapleton, Explanation of Catholic Morals]. We know that hope is forward looking, or the effects of things hoped for have been realized; obtaining the thing we hoped for is no longer is a hope, “hope that is seen, is not hope. For what a man seeth, why doth he hope for?” (Roman 8:24).

“The human being is not automatically well ordered just because he sets his hope on natural well-being, even though it may be something as great as peace on earth and just order among nations Only the hope for God-given salvation, for eternal life, sets man right from within Not only does it renounce an activism totally enclosed within the plane of history and insistent that no hope is left when there is nothing more we can do; it also renounces the mere otherworldliness of a supernaturalism excluding history, which would abandon political humanity to fatalism.” — Joseph Pieper

The opposite of hope is despair. In despair we turn away from God’s merciful promise of salvation, we reject the Father’s will to save us [which is within the power of freewill to do so], a grievous sin. A certainty of despair then is rejection of God’s omnipotence and mercy which manifests it’s self in fatalism and scrupulosity, the sins of doubt. However, we know “hope is laid up for us [Colossians 1:5], “we are saved by hope” [Romans 8:24].

“Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering (for he is faithful that hath promised)” [Hebrews 10:23]

JoeT

 

[jmcrae]

Bookcat and jmcrae, both of you have implied in some way or another that if you knew you were guilty of a mortal sin, but didn’t go to confession right away, that you would have some sense of security (in case you were to die) due to God’s love and/or your true desire to confess. Is this correct?

If this is true, wouldn’t you say that faith in God and having a TRULY repentant heart provides more security of salvation then the actual physical act of confession? What I mean is that, with the act of confession, you really only have security of salvation until you sin. However, a TRULY repentant heart and a desire to confess is what extends that security of salvation. Here’s a visual representation (consider all the blue areas as having security of salvation and the red areas as uncertainty).

without a truly repentant heart:
sin sin sin sin confession sin sin sin sin sin confession sin sin sin sin sin sin sin sin confession

with a heart of TRUE repentance:
sin sin sin sin confession sin sin sin sin sin confession sin sin sin sin sin sin sin sin confession

Don’t get me wrong. I’m NOT advocating that a person skip out on confession. However, it just seems to me that a truly repentant heart is a better shield from punishment than the physical act of confession.

In my case, the reality looks more like this:

sin sin sin sin confession struggle struggle venial sin sin confession struggleconfession work on developing virtues succeed in doing good struggle sin confession work on developing virtues succeed in doing goodstruggle work on developing virtues succeed in doing good succeed in doing goodvenial sinsucceed in doing goodvenial sinsucceed in doing goodvenial sin confession etc.

The Sacrament of Reconciliation gives me both the strength and the motivation to improve each time.

A truly repentant heart goes without saying. I don’t think your soul can receive Absolution, if you are not truly repentant, and desiring never to commit sin again, out of love for God who created you and died on the Cross for your sins.