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jmcrae
Guest
Amen!
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DavidFilmer
Guest
As I said, if the person commits mortal sin, it does not matter when his last Confession was (whether last Saturday or years ago, or even if he had only been Baptized and never went to Confession). He is not in a state of Grace once he commits a mortal sin.
What impact his Confession has to his ultimate fate is unknown. God is bound by the Sacraments, but he is not limited by them. He may have some criteria unknown to us by which a person who is not in a State of Grace may yet be saved, and the recent Confession might (or might not) factor into this decision.
So we cannot say whether or not the Confession made any difference at all. All we know is that the guy has no assurance of salvation since he has died outside of a State of Grace. If dying outside of a state of Grace alone necessarily and categorically results in damnation (something which I don’t think the Church has ever taught) then the recent Confession would make no difference.
But that’s something we cannot know. I think it’s always best to err on the side of Grace. I would take some comfort knowing that a loved one had recently Confessed, even if I know he had likely sinned afterward.
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Vico
Guest
The sources of sin are ignorance, passion, and malice. There is always some degree of pride in a sin (pride is excessive love of one’s own excellence). There may be a sin of ignorance where the ignorance is not invincible, this may not seem to fit into the category of sufficient reflection. The knowledge of the sinful character of an act is based on what the Church teaches (or from conscience for those not taught) not on personal opinion. A person must have sufficient reflection for mortal sin, but also may be culpable because of not avoiding the near occasions of grave sin (If thy eye offend thee, pluck it out.).
Final penitence is the goal. After you sinned and before you died, did you make a perfect act of contrition, even though you were not able to get to the sacrament of confession?
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truthseekerjay
Guest
Good, we’re getting somewhere. Just to briefly summarize what I’ve been saying:
After you go to confession, you are placed in a state of grace. The moment you sin, that state of grace now becomes questionable because depending on the type of sin committed, you may still be in a state of grace OR you may be in a state of mortal sin. For simplicity sake, I will call this the state of uncertainty. Due to imperfection, I feel that it doesn’t take too long before a person commits a sin after confession (perhaps thinking a bad thought) and will be placed in this state of uncertainty. Therefore, I would say that the majority of our lives are spent in a state of uncertainty. Statistically, it only makes sense. We sin way more than we go to confession.
I guess what I’m trying to figure out is how people cope with this uncertainty. I’ll list a couple of the responses I’ve heard and maybe we can discuss them.
- My sins are probably venial.
- I know that my sins are venial.
- Even if I did commit a mortal sin, God knows that I want to go to confession and He counts that as actual confession if I die before it happens.
- There are graces that decrease the chance of a person’s sin from being considered mortal.
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Vico
Guest
Possibly.
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jmcrae
Guest
You cannot commit a mortal sin by accident and nor can you do so unknowingly. Therefore, after you have made a good Confession, avoid situations where you know you will be tempted to commit mortal sin. Remember, your goal in this life is to become a Saint.
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Vico
Guest
There can be mortal sin without knowledge, through vincible ignorance. The Catholic Encyclopedia has (from topics ignorance and intention):
“… ignorance is termed vincible if it can be dispelled by the use of “moral diligence”. This certainly does not mean all possible effort; …”
also
“…there is the virtual intention. Its force is borrowed entirely a prior volition which is accounted as continuing in some result produced by it. In other words, the virtual intention is not a present act of the will.”
Catechism of the Catholic Church: 1791 This ignorance can often be imputed to personal responsibility. This is the case when a man "takes little trouble to find out what is true and good, or when conscience is by degrees almost blinded through the habit of committing sin."59 In such cases, the person is culpable for the evil he commits.
1792**** Ignorance of Christ and his Gospel, bad example given by others, enslavement to one’s passions, assertion of a mistaken notion of autonomy of conscience, rejection of the Church’s authority and her teaching, lack of conversion and of charity: these can be at the source of errors of judgment in moral conduct. **
1793** If - on the contrary - the ignorance is invincible, or the moral subject is not responsible for his erroneous judgment, the evil committed by the person cannot be imputed to him. It remains no less an evil, a privation, a disorder. One must therefore work to correct the errors of moral conscience.
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jmcrae
Guest
Deliberate ignorance is a mortal sin in and of itself.
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Vico
Guest
Yes, and then virtual intention may bring more culpable errors.
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MPat
Guest
I guess that a lot would be gained by being very precise here. What exactly do you want? If you want to be certain after the confession that you would stay in the state of grace until the next confession, then that seems to be both impossible (without a special grace) and unnecessary.
First of all, it is best not to worry about potential future sins (the ones that you can neither predict nor prevent at the moment). Such worry gains you nothing. Then one should try to avoid the sins that can be avoided, and to generate perfect contrition for the ones that have already been made. Perfect contrition with the plan to go to confession soon can put one back into the state of grace even after a mortal sin. After that is done, there is little more one can do about it anyway, thus it is more reasonable to concentrate on something else (like avoiding further sins).
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dcana
Guest
What is this all about? God created you and loves you. He created you for the purpose of being with Him for all eternity. He knows you, inside and out, everything you do, everywhere you go. Can anything happen that He does not either ordain or allow, including being hit and killed by a car? No. Jesus Christ came to save the world, not condemn the world. God will do everything in His power to save you. Trust in Him.
Pray, trust, and do not worry.
- St. Padre Pio
God bless
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dcana
Guest
Wait…what? I think the Church has always taught that.
Grave sin deprives us of communion with God and therefore makes us incapable of eternal life, the privation of which is called the “eternal punishment” of sin.
CCC 1472
To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God’s merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called “hell.”
CCC 1033
The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, “eternal fire.”
CCC 1035
The state of our soul at the moment of death determines where we spend eternity.
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dcana
Guest
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dcana
Guest
Life is a mystery, you know? We can’t know everything. More than that, there is nothing that happens that we can understand “perfectly”, in the way that God knows things. We can’t calculate “probabilities” of someone being saved or not in some circumstance or whatnot. That’s silly. You’ll see, when you meet Him, it was all much ado over nothing.
And this:
Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? And not one of them will fall to the ground without your Father’s will. But even the hairs of your head are all numbered. Do not worry, therefore; you are worth more than many sparrows.
Look at the birds of the air: they neither sow nor reap nor gather into barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not of more value than they? And which of you by being anxious can add one cubit to his span of life? And why are you anxious about clothing? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they neither toil nor spin; yet I tell you, even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. But if God so clothes the grass of the field, which today is alive and tomorrow is thrown into the oven, will he not much more clothe you, O men of little faith? Therefore do not be anxious, saying,
And this:
Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? And not one of them will fall to the ground without your Father’s will. But even the hairs of your head are all numbered. Do not worry, therefore; you are worth more than many sparrows.
Look at the birds of the air: they neither sow nor reap nor gather into barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not of more value than they? And which of you by being anxious can add one cubit to his span of life? And why are you anxious about clothing? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they neither toil nor spin; yet I tell you, even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. But if God so clothes the grass of the field, which today is alive and tomorrow is thrown into the oven, will he not much more clothe you, O men of little faith? Therefore do not be anxious, saying,
What shall we eat?' or What shall we drink?’ or `What shall we wear?’ For the Gentiles seek all these things; and your heavenly Father knows that you need them all. But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things shall be yours as well. Therefore do not be anxious about tomorrow, for tomorrow will be anxious for itself. Let the day’s own trouble be sufficient for the day.
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dcana
Guest
I’m sorry, I don’t know if you are really worried about these things or if you are just engaging in some theological pondering and speculation. Either way, my responses would be substantially, if not exactly, the same.
Good night
Good night
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DavidFilmer
Guest
I would say the Church has almost taught that.DavidFilmer:
Wait…what? I think the Church has always taught that.
We are BORN in a state of mortal sin. But the Church clearly teaches that salvation is possible for people who have never been reborn in Christian Baptism, including holding out “hope” for the unbaptized children of Christian parents.
If salvation is POSSIBLE (or even hopeful) for people who have never received Sanctifying Grace in the first place, can we categorically state that salvation is absolutely IMPOSSIBLE for people who have received Sanctifying Grace but then lost it?
Because, to me, it seems better to receive Sanctifying Grace and loose it, than to never receive it at all. If salvation is possible for people who have never received Sanctifying Grace, is it absolutely impossible for anyone who has?
And I still maintain that the Catholic Church has not taught otherwise.
I have cited this paragraph several times when confronted with questions such as, “why would a merciful God allow people to go to hell?” I have contended (and used this paragraph) that NOBODY will ever be dragged into hell, kicking and screaming that there has been some mistake. Those who are in hell are there because that is where they have freely chosen to be. The Catechism says so!
My response has been met with answers such as “you dummy - nobody would freely choose to be in hell.” To which I reply, “then, according to you and the Catechism, hell is empty.” Which really cheeses people off. Any Catholic is perfectly free to believe that hell exists but it is empty, but it’s amazing how many people get all lathered-up at the very suggestion of this idea. By merely suggesting it, I have been accused of actually advocating it (more than once).
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Della
Guest
I’m responding to these paragraphs. You are wrong, I’m afraid in your conclusion because your premise is flawed–that those who have deliberately and mortally sinned who have not repented can be saved. And that it is better to have had saving grace and lost it than to never have had it.
First of all, if anyone deliberately, mortally sins and doesn’t repent he will not be saved if he dies in that state. The Church is clear on that point.
Secondly, the Church does not teach that those who have never received santifying grace can be saved. It is more nuanced than that.
She teaches, rather that those who have never received it through baptism through no fault of their own may be saved by cooperating with the grace God has given them due to Christ’s redemption. This cooperation serves as a baptism of desire for they desired to please God as they were able so to do. So, they received sanctifying grace directly from God, who is not bound by the sacraments, as he deems proper. Of course, no one can presume upon God’s grace–to use this as an excuse if they know they should receive baptism.Also, it is not better to have received sanctifying grace and then to have deliberately, mortally sinned. That is turning our backs on God’s grace–a grave sin in and of itself. St. Paul likens it to a dog returning to eat his vomit–that such persons are worse off than they were before because they have crucified again the Lord of glory.
I hope we haven’t taken the thread too far afield, but I didn’t want the OP to be confused into thinking that he can commit mortal sin with impunity and be fine–not that I think he would think that. I believe his problem is scrupulosity–a condition he needs to discuss with his confessor. We cannot solve that for him, nor do we have the expertise to do so.
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truthseekerjay
Guest
MPat, dcana, DavidFilmer, and Della, I looked back at some of your responses and looking at them as a whole, I came up with some thoughts that I’d like you all to review. In the process of debating, I know that picking and choosing only parts of what people (with different points of view) are saying can lead to inconsistent conclusions, but please just bear with me and hear me out. Just to be clear, I am NOT trying to avoid going to confession. As I’ve mentioned before, if you can find a priest who you can build a rapport with and who knows you well enough to be able to point out why certain sins in your life are occurring, then PLEASE go to confession and do it often. What I’m trying to get at here is the value of confession from a salvation standpoint.
MPat:
If you want to be certain after the confession that you would stay in the state of grace until the next confession, then that seems to be both impossible (without a special grace) and unnecessary.
I think everyone can agree to this right? To me, this lessens the value of the physical act of confession because the CERTAINTY of the state of grace granted after confession quickly becomes QUESTIONABLE as soon as one sins. There must be “something else” that would allow us to sleep easy at night.
MPat:
Perfect contrition with the plan to go to confession soon can put one back into the state of grace even after a mortal sin.
dcana:
He knows you, inside and out, everything you do, everywhere you go. Can anything happen that He does not either ordain or allow, including being hit and killed by a car? No.
DavidFilmer:
God is bound by the Sacraments, but he is not limited by them. He may have some criteria unknown to us by which a person who is not in a State of Grace may yet be saved, and the recent Confession might (or might not) factor into this decision.
Della:
She teaches, rather that those who have never received it through baptism through no fault of their own may be saved by cooperating with the grace God has given them due to Christ’s redemption. This cooperation serves as a baptism of desire for they desired to please God as they were able so to do. So, they received sanctifying grace directly from God, who is not bound by the sacraments, as he deems proper. Of course, no one can presume upon God’s grace–to use this as an excuse if they know they should receive baptism.
As a whole, it sounds like the “something else” I mentioned above is some sort of true desire for repentance. I think that this matters more than the physical act of confession and is ultimately of more value from a salvation standpoint. I think that this true desire for repentance is what shields you for a longer time from eternal punishment. Just to be clear, I’m not saying that the physical acts of confession or baptism don’t have any value. However, it’s the true desire for them that’s more important. After all, a baptism or confession done thoughtlessly wouldn’t count right?
How does this sound?
MPat:
If you want to be certain after the confession that you would stay in the state of grace until the next confession, then that seems to be both impossible (without a special grace) and unnecessary.
I think everyone can agree to this right? To me, this lessens the value of the physical act of confession because the CERTAINTY of the state of grace granted after confession quickly becomes QUESTIONABLE as soon as one sins. There must be “something else” that would allow us to sleep easy at night.
MPat:
Perfect contrition with the plan to go to confession soon can put one back into the state of grace even after a mortal sin.
dcana:
He knows you, inside and out, everything you do, everywhere you go. Can anything happen that He does not either ordain or allow, including being hit and killed by a car? No.
DavidFilmer:
God is bound by the Sacraments, but he is not limited by them. He may have some criteria unknown to us by which a person who is not in a State of Grace may yet be saved, and the recent Confession might (or might not) factor into this decision.
Della:
She teaches, rather that those who have never received it through baptism through no fault of their own may be saved by cooperating with the grace God has given them due to Christ’s redemption. This cooperation serves as a baptism of desire for they desired to please God as they were able so to do. So, they received sanctifying grace directly from God, who is not bound by the sacraments, as he deems proper. Of course, no one can presume upon God’s grace–to use this as an excuse if they know they should receive baptism.
As a whole, it sounds like the “something else” I mentioned above is some sort of true desire for repentance. I think that this matters more than the physical act of confession and is ultimately of more value from a salvation standpoint. I think that this true desire for repentance is what shields you for a longer time from eternal punishment. Just to be clear, I’m not saying that the physical acts of confession or baptism don’t have any value. However, it’s the true desire for them that’s more important. After all, a baptism or confession done thoughtlessly wouldn’t count right?
How does this sound?
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jmcrae
Guest
The “something else” is faith. Faith is the “engine” that makes the Sacraments effective.
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truthseekerjay
Guest
I agree. From a salvation standpoint, wouldn’t you say that this “something else/true repentance/faith” is the true and more significant shield from eternal punishment?
With the physical acts of baptism and confession, you have guaranteed protection of being in a state of grace for ONLY AS LONG as you don’t sin. When you sin, I don’t think you can be 100% sure that it’s venial. Therefore, the moment you sin, that guaranteed protection you just obtained now becomes questionable, but it sounds like from the previous responses that there is a MORE LASTING protection provided by this “something else/true repentance/faith.”
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