Certainty (or uncertainty) in salvation

[Bookcat]

Due to the sins we commit, we should probably go to confession EVERY day.

No.

That is why “venial sins” are called “daily sins”.

And such can be repented of and forgiven in many ways (though yes confession of (at least some of) them regularly is very important - see CCC).

Via Faith and Baptism…one can enter a state of salvation.

Can I know that I remain in this state? Do I have “certainty”?

On “a given day” one can have a kind of moral certainty …sure it is not absolute infallible certainty (unless perhaps by a very extraordinary special private revelation from God)…

But as I said one can have moral certainty…a practical certainty…

which is a kind of certitude…a “kind of knowing”

Positive indications can be:

From the orientation of ones heart towards God in love…it is filled with the things of God satisfying my desires…with hope in God…or other ways the “presence of God” is “experienced” in prayer and in various ways…etc (cf Rom 8:16, 2 Cor 13:15)

Or from negative indications: that is not being conscious of any mortal sin…

(obviously we are speaking of a person who has been baptized into Christ)

Remember:

*We walk by Faith *not by sight (2 Cor 5:7)

(and at times one must walk by a more dark faith…especially during periods of purification or certain periods in the spiritual life)

and are saved in hope (see Romans 8:24)…

We have the “certitude of hope”!

On “a given day” one have a “moral certitude” and one thus lives in Faith and Hope following Jesus of Nazareth in Love…for he indeed is our Hope.

Our hope and trust is in the Lord Jesus Christ! The Good Shepherd! I know him in whom I believe! (II Tm 1: 12).

 

[truthseekerjay]

We have the “certitude of hope”!

As I’ve been asking everyone else, who has this “certitude of hope?” Does anyone who claim to be a follower of God have this certitude of hope?

 

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[Bookcat]

As I’ve been asking everyone else, who has this “certitude of hope?”

Read again the context of my full post.

 

[truthseekerjay]

Read again the context of my full post.

I did. I still don’t know what you’re referring to specifically. If it’s faith and hope that you’re referring to, I’d say that anyone can claim to have those just like they can claim to be a follower of God. What makes you different from a Buddhist or a lukewarm Roman Catholic?

 

[Bookcat]

I did. I still don’t know what you’re referring to specifically.

Via Faith and Baptism…one enters a state of salvation.

Can I know that I remain in this state? Do I have “certainty”?

On “a given day” I can have a kind of moral certainty …sure it is not absolute infallible certainty (unless perhaps by a very extraordinary special private revelation from God)…it is a moral certainty.

Positive indications can be:

From the orientation of my heart towards God in love…or other ways the “presence of God” is “experienced” in prayer and in various ways…etc (cf Rom 8:16, 2 Cor 13:15).

But one may note have any experience currently.

Or from negative indications: that is not being conscious of having committed any mortal sin…

And thus have left that state of grace.

To commit a mortal sin there needs to be grave matter, full knowledge and deliberate consent. Together.

Do we live in fear?

No - we live in joy and faith and hope and love.

(and such is not necessarily going to involve any emotions)

We walk by Faith not by sight.

---

I commend to you the following readings:

"Moreover, our radical belonging to Christ and the fact that “we are in him” must imbue in us an attitude of total trust and immense joy. In short, we must indeed exclaim with St Paul: “If God is for us, who is against us?” (Rom 8: 31). And the reply is that nothing and no one “will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord” (Rom 8: 39). Our Christian life, therefore, stands on the soundest and safest rock one can imagine. And from it we draw all our energy, precisely as the Apostle wrote: “I can do all things in him who strengthens me” (Phil 4: 13).

Therefore, let us face our life with its joys and sorrows supported by these great sentiments that Paul offers to us. By having an experience of them we will realize how true are the words the Apostle himself wrote: “I know whom I have believed, and I am sure that he is able to guard until that Day what has been entrusted to me”; in other words, until the Day (II Tm 1: 12) of our definitive meeting with Christ the Judge, Saviour of the world and our Saviour."

~ Pope Benedict XVI

w2.vatican.va/content/benedict-xvi/en/audiences/2006/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20061108.html

“If we are in relation with him who does not die, who is Life itself and Love itself, then we are in life. Then we “live”.”

~ Pope Benedict XVI (Spe Salvi)

w2.vatican.va/content/benedict-xvi/en/encyclicals/documents/hf_ben-xvi_enc_20071130_spe-salvi.html

"“Gaudete in Domino semper”, St Paul wrote: “Rejoice in the Lord always” (Phil 4:4). True joy is not a fruit of “divertirsi” [having a good time] understood in the etymological sense of the word di-vertere (di-version), that is, shirking the commitments of life and one’s responsibilities.

True joy is linked to something deeper. Of course, in the all too often frenetic pace of daily life it is important to find time for rest and relaxation, but true joy is linked to our relationship with God. Those who have encountered Christ in their own lives feel a serenity and joy in their hearts that no one and no situation can take from them. St Augustine understood this very well; in his quest for truth, peace and joy, after seeking them in vain in many things he concluded with his famous words: “and our heart is restless until it rests in God” (cf. Confessions, I, 1, 1).

True joy is not merely a passing state of mind or something that can be achieved with the person’s own effort; rather it is a gift, born from the encounter with the living Person of Jesus and, making room within ourselves, from welcoming the Holy Spirit who guides our lives. It is the invitation of the Apostle Paul who says: “May the God of peace himself sanctify you wholly; and may your spirit and soul and body be kept sound and blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ (1 Thess 5:23)."

~ Pope Benedict XVI

w2.vatican.va/content/benedict-xvi/en/angelus/2011/documents/hf_ben-xvi_ang_20111211.html

(again such is not per se a matter of the emotions…tis deeper that such …though it can can does effect the emotions too at times…Christian joy though can exist even in great suffering…)

 

[truthseekerjay]

On “a given day” I can have a kind of moral certainty …sure it is not absolute infallible certainty (unless perhaps by a very extraordinary special private revelation from God)…it is a moral certainty.

For now, let me just drop the whole uncertainty aspect. I think that I’m just confusing myself and others. Let’s say you knew that you were guilty of a mortal sin. From a salvation standpoint, you are now in the same boat as Buddhist person or a person who hasn’t gone to confession in years.

Do you drop everything at once to go to confession?

If not, what gives you peace of mind for waiting?

Also, if you say that God’s love is what give you peace of mind, what differentiated you from a lukewarm believer (ie does God offer this exception to the rule for all people who claim to be His followers or are you somehow special)?

 

[Bookcat]

Let’s say you knew that you were guilty of a mortal sin. From a salvation standpoint, you are now in the same boat as Buddhist person or a person who hasn’t gone to confession in years.

No that is not the same boat. One boat is a person who is a Buddhist.

The other boat is a person who has not gone to confession in years (and may or may not be tending towards repenting).

And the other boat is a person who seeks to follow Christ who just fell now into a mortal sin and is turning back towards Christ with the help of the Holy Spirit…
*
Different boats.*

 

[truthseekerjay]

No that is not the same boat. One boat is a person who is a Buddhist.

The other boat is a person who has not gone to confession in years (and may or may not be tending towards repenting).

And the other boat is a person who seeks to follow Christ who just fell now into a mortal sin and is turning back towards Christ with the help of the Holy Spirit…
*
Different boats.*

Do you remember that I said that you KNEW you were guilty of a mortal sin at this moment in time? I’m sure that the Buddhist and the lukewarm believer has at least one mortal sin that’s currently staining their souls. Since you all have a mortal sin at this very moment in time, you would all go to hell if you died at this moment. Doesn’t this put you all in the same boat with respect to salvation at this point in time?

 

[Bookcat]

Let’s say you knew that you were guilty of a mortal sin.

Do you drop everything at once to go to confession?

If not, what gives you peace of mind for waiting?

Ok so I have actually committed a mortal sin (grave matter, full knowledge and deliberate consent)?

Do I drop everything at once and go to confession?

Well that depends on circumstances – are there confessions being heard? Is my confessor available? etc.

In any case I seek the grace of making a perfect act of contrition (this is not a matter of emotions per se but more of grace and will…of love of God above all …and it can be compatible with other lesser motives). Resolving to get to confession as soon as possible.

Now when that confession will be - would depend again on the circumstances.

As to “peace of mind” in the mean time - I seek as I noted to make an act of perfect contrition and so that would help with such…

But in any case I ought to live in faith and hope -knowing Jesus Christ the Good Shepherd loves me and desires that I have life. “I know whom I have believed” and keep turning to him calmly knowing he loves me…that he can make all things well and give me true life again. “Jesus you are the Good Shepherd - help your sheep”.

Such is not the peace I would have after confession of course (with or without feelings of peace)…but it keeps the focus on Jesus who loves me - not on my sin.

Jesus came for sinners - so we may have true life.

As he said - It is not the healthy who need the physician…

 

[Bookcat]

Do you remember that I said that you KNEW you were guilty of a mortal sin at this moment in time? I’m sure that the Buddhist and the lukewarm believer has at least one mortal sin that’s currently staining their souls. Since you all have a mortal sin at this very moment in time, you would all go to hell if you died at this moment. Doesn’t this put you all in the same boat with respect to salvation at this point in time?

Again as I repeat very different boats.

But lets set those boats off on the shore.

 

[Bookcat]

Let’s say you knew that you were guilty of a mortal sin.

Do you drop everything at once to go to confession?

If not, what gives you peace of mind for waiting?

Ok so I have actually committed a mortal sin (grave matter, full knowledge and deliberate consent)?

Do I drop everything at once and go to confession?

Well that depends on circumstances – are there confessions being heard? Is my confessor available? etc.

I might be able to and would.

In any case I seek the grace of making a perfect act of contrition (this is not a matter of emotions per se but more of grace and will…of love of God above all …and it can be compatible with other lesser motives). Resolving to get to confession as soon as possible.

Now when that confession will be - would depend again on the circumstances.

As to “peace of mind” in the mean time - I would seek as I noted to make an act of perfect contrition and so that would help with such…

(but will there still be suffering before confession? - Yes I would say so - so that is not going to be “peace” like one has after confession).

But in any case I ought to live in faith and hope -knowing Jesus Christ the Good Shepherd loves me and desires that I have life. Trust. “I know whom I have believed” and keep turning to him calmly knowing he loves me…that he can make all things well and give me true life again.
*
“Jesus you are the Good Shepherd - help your sheep”.*

Such is not the peace I would have after confession of course (with or without feelings of peace)…but it keeps the focus on Jesus who loves me - not on my sin. Keeps me turned toward him - from whom life will come or may have already come (even prior to confession).

Jesus came for sinners - so we may have true life.

As he said - It is not the healthy who need the physician…

 

[truthseekerjay]

Again as I repeat very different boats.

But lets set those boats off on the shore.

OK so maybe using the term “same boat” isn’t accurately describing the situation. Let me ask the question differently.

You went to confession yesterday. Today is a new day and you committed a mortal sin and you KNEW you were guilty.
You have a Buddhist who has never gone to confession (most likely has mortal sin).
You have a lukewarm believer who hasn’t confessed in years (most likely has mortal sin).

If you were all in the same car and died in a car accident at this moment in time (without any of you going to confession), where do you all end up if God didn’t use any exceptions to the rule?

In any case I seek the grace of making a perfect act of contrition (this is not a matter of emotions per se but more of grace and will…of love of God above all …and it can be compatible with other lesser motives). Resolving to get to confession as soon as possible.

As to “peace of mind” in the mean time - I would seek as I noted to make an act of perfect contrition and so that would help with such…

If you knew you were guilty of a mortal sin, died with this sin staining your soul, and were saved WITHOUT going to confession, then I would say you were saved because of some “exception to the rule.” Based off what you said, it sounds like you doing a perfect contrition could be a part of this exception. Someone on this thread either said that a perfect contrition is very hard to do or can’t be ascertained by the person attempting it.

Can you be sure that you actually performed a perfect contrition? If not, what is now giving you peace of mind?

If it can be ascertained, who is eligible to receive this exception to the rule (ie if the Buddhist TRULY realized his sin and was TRULY repentant, would God offer this exception like he offered it to you)?

 

[wmw]

The Lord through His word promises that we will have His “law” written in our hearts. I take this to mean that we do have an almost certain knowledge of where we stand at this moment. The uncertainty is more about what may transpire over time.

In the 3 die in an accident, the Christian, may well be saved, but without a Mortal Sin being confessed there is quite a degree of doubt. One doesn’t just slip up and stumble into Mortal Sin and there is quite a bit of “premeditation” for any act to be a Mortal Sin and not just a Grave one.

To translate it back to the analogy of the marriage covenant. A man just doesn’t end up in another woman’s bed, unless he was totally unconscious and setup.

 

[Bookcat]

OK so maybe using the term “same boat” isn’t accurately describing the situation. Let me ask the question differently.

Like I said - set those very different boats on the shore. No need to get into them for they really take you off your main question into all sorts of side questions.

 

[Bookcat]

If you knew you were guilty of a mortal sin, died with this sin staining your soul, and were saved WITHOUT going to confession, then I would say you were saved because of some “exception to the rule.” Based off what you said, it sounds like you doing a perfect contrition could be a part of this exception. Someone on this thread either said that a perfect contrition is very hard to do or can’t be ascertained by the person attempting it.

Catechism:

1452 When it arises from a love by which God is loved above all else, contrition is called “perfect” (contrition of charity). Such contrition remits venial sins; it also obtains forgiveness of mortal sins if it includes the firm resolution to have recourse to sacramental confession as soon as possible.

(note of course venial sins can be forgiven in many other ways too…)

God can yes give one this grace. And such is compatible with co-existent lesser motives. And emotion need not be there.

what is now giving you peace of mind?

I would seek the grace of making an act of perfect contrition. And seek out confession as soon as possible.

But will there still be suffering before confession? - Yes I would say so - so that is not going to be “peace” like one has after confession. So there will not be I would think a
what your calling “peace of mind” yet at that point.

But in any case I would live in faith and hope -knowing Jesus Christ the Good Shepherd loves me and desires that I have life

Trust. “I know whom I have believed” and keep turning to him calmly knowing he loves me…and that he can make all things well and give me true life again.
*
“Jesus you are the Good Shepherd - help your sheep”.*

And seek out confession.

 

[jmcrae]

I’m not too sure about that. When my sister and I were young, she had a toy with a string that you would pull to make the toy create sounds. Anyway, I remember tricking her into cutting that string. If you asked me at that time if I knew I was committing a mortal sin, I would have said no. I wasn’t “really” violating any of the ten commandments. I also didn’t threaten to hit her if she didn’t cut the string. She chose to cut the string herself. However, when I look back at it, I knew exactly what I was doing and I knew the harm that I would cause. My motivation came from pure evil. I didn’t do it out of revenge. I just really wanted to cause sadness.

Is this incident something you would have thought of, if someone had asked you, “Is there anything you did today that you think Jesus, or anyone else you love, would want you to be sorry for?”

We don’t expect children to understand the term “mortal sin” but at the same time, in helping them form their consciences, it’s good to ask them these kinds of questions so that they can understand how to be accountable for their actions.

I guess you can say that I was young and didn’t know any better. This is somewhat true as far as gravity is concerned, but I definitely knew what I was doing. To be honest, I don’t really think we can excuse a person just because of age. In fact, as an adult, I continue to grow in my walk with Christ, which changes my view of sin. There are sins today that I would know are mortal that I wouldn’t have known to be mortal just two years ago! Come to think of it, why would any reasonable Roman Catholic commit a sin that they knew was mortal? If you use the argument that a person didn’t know how serious the sin was, then mortal sin would practically be nonexistent among average Roman Catholics.

Indeed, and I should hope that that is the case.

We go to Confession regularly, not because we commit mortal sin that often (or ever) but in order to remain accountable for our venial sins, and to continue to form our consciences and make them tender, so that we would, in fact, never ever commit any kind of mortal sin.

It’s not just about “staying out of Hell” but it’s about becoming the best possible person we can become - to become the greatest possible Saint in the life that we have been given to live.

Perhaps you’re thinking that I’m being scrupulous with my sins, but I really don’t think that’s true. I wouldn’t worry if a poor man was given a chicken sandwich on Good Friday and ate it, but I would worry about the situation I will describe. This sin that I committed has a questionable level of gravity. One of my friends, who I have a love-hate-jealousy relationship with, went through a pretty bad experience. Let’s just say it involved hospitalization. Anyway, when people told me about what happened to this friend, I secretly took pleasure in it and even somewhat hoped that the situation wouldn’t end so quick for him. Of course, I thought to myself, “You really don’t mean that.” But you know what, I actually did. This sin revealed to me the level of anger and jealousy in my heart that I actually have for this so called friend of mine. Anyway, if Jesus says that certain forms of anger can be considered murder, can I really be sure that my hoping for the worst for my friend wasn’t a mortal sin?

BTW, these are the types of sins I was talking about in my Saturday-Tuesday scenario that I gave above.

I think both of your examples would be things that I would take to Confession, since it’s not important whether they are technically “mortal” sins, but that if I were to do such things, it would disappoint my Maker, my Friend, and my Brother, Jesus Christ - and I don’t want to disappoint Him!

 

[jmcrae]

For now, let me just drop the whole uncertainty aspect. I think that I’m just confusing myself and others. Let’s say you knew that you were guilty of a mortal sin. From a salvation standpoint, you are now in the same boat as Buddhist person or a person who hasn’t gone to confession in years.

It’s not exactly the same. First, the Catholic who hasn’t been to Confession in years likely never will go, barring some sort of existential personal crisis. And a Buddhist is even less likely ever to go, since even if he experiences a crisis, he’s not going to think of becoming a Catholic.

Do you drop everything at once to go to confession?

You look up the Confession times at your nearest parish, and go at the earliest opportunity.

If not, what gives you peace of mind for waiting?

Because you know you’re going to Confession, and if anything happens to you in the meantime, God will know that you were sorry for your sins and that you had made a plan to go to Confession at the earliest opportunity.

Also, if you say that God’s love is what give you peace of mind, what differentiated you from a lukewarm believer (ie does God offer this exception to the rule for all people who claim to be His followers or are you somehow special)?

It’s not an “exception.” God forgives everyone who is on their way to Confession, or who has made a plan to go to Confession.

 

[jmcrae]

OK so maybe using the term “same boat” isn’t accurately describing the situation. Let me ask the question differently.

You went to confession yesterday. Today is a new day and you committed a mortal sin and you KNEW you were guilty.
You have a Buddhist who has never gone to confession (most likely has mortal sin).
You have a lukewarm believer who hasn’t confessed in years (most likely has mortal sin).

If you were all in the same car and died in a car accident at this moment in time (without any of you going to confession), where do you all end up if God didn’t use any exceptions to the rule?

The Buddhist would be in the section of Hell that corresponds most closely to his favourite sins, whatever those may be. Since he does not have Jesus for his Saviour (and since we’re not assuming he has “invincible ignorance”) he doesn’t get to go to Heaven, even if he was a really nice person during his lifetime.

The lukewarm Catholic would be in the region of Hell where alcoholic nuns with raging headaches beat him across the knuckles every five minutes for the rest of Eternity while trying to teach him his Catechism.

(The alcoholic nuns are being punished for their sins by being forced to teach Catechism classes to lukewarm Catholics for the rest of eternity. That’s because there is such a thing as Karma - Karma is the “sorting hat” of Hell.)

You (since you had been intending to go to Confession) will be in Purgatory making your Confession, and doing penance for your sins.