Chaldean Catholic Church

[Isa_Almisry]

I was speaking with a Romanian Orthodox who was dating an Assyrian. She knew he was church of the East, and knew of the Chaldeans, but she said his aunt was Assyrian, but “Catholic but not Chaldean.” Is there any such other group under Rome?

Btw, Happy New Year to Ryondish, etc.

and I second Mardukm’s thoughts on more Orientals.

 

[Aramis]

I was speaking with a Romanian Orthodox who was dating an Assyrian. She knew he was church of the East, and knew of the Chaldeans, but she said his aunt was Assyrian, but “Catholic but not Chaldean.” Is there any such other group under Rome?

Possibly Roman or Maronite. Might also be Melkite. I’m not certain how much interpenetration the various traditions have into each other’s “turf”…

 

[ronyodish]

Would anybody happen to know what these respective numbers are, as well as the distinction between the Assyrian and ‘Ancient’ Churches?

jj2011,

There is some information on the numbers, but I’m not sure if this is the latest update:

The Chaldean Catholic Church
The Assyrian Church of the East

Unfortunately, I don’t know the numbers on the Ancient Church of the East. The schism between the Assyrian and Ancient Churches is mentioned in the Assyrian article above, as it relates to Mar Simon and those who were opposed to him. The efforts at reconciliation between these two Churches have taken a step closer recently, according to this article.

I was speaking with a Romanian Orthodox who was dating an Assyrian. She knew he was church of the East, and knew of the Chaldeans, but she said his aunt was Assyrian, but “Catholic but not Chaldean.” Is there any such other group under Rome?

Isa Almisry,

Catholic but not Chaldean can refer to the other groups mentioned by Aramis, but if this aunt is Assyrian, then she might be an ethnically Assyrian member of one of the Catholic Churches. Even in the Chaldean Catholic Church, there are Assyrian Catholics. For instance, the Western United States eparchy is known as: St. Peter the Apostle Catholic Diocese for Chaldeans and Assyrians

Or, this aunt could be a member of the Assyrian Church of the East, but refers to herself as Catholic. Sometimes, Assyrian Church of the East Christians will refer to themselves as Catholic. Their website includes Catholic in their name.

Or, it could be something else that I’m not aware of.

Btw, Happy New Year to Ryondish, etc

Happy New Year to you as well

God bless,

Rony

 

[Irish_Melkite]

Chaldeans have icons, but they are mostly borrowed from other Catholic traditions. Genuine Chaldean icons are very rare. The Cross remains a very important symbol for us. Traditionally, a veil rather than an iconostatsis is used, but not all churches have this veil. Here is an example of a veiled Chaldean Catholic church.

Assyrians prefer the Cross as their chief symbol of the Faith, rather than the use of iconography. So, genuine Assyrian icons are also very rare, and typically you will not find any icons in their churches. Here is an example of an Assyrian church

I would agree with my brother, Rony, as to the absence of iconography as a strong tradition in the modern-day Assyrian and Chaldean Churches. There is some evidence that the usage was lost in the centuries under Muslim domination, given the Muslim proscriptions against such. (The Assyro-Chaldeans have probably been under Muslim domination more intensively and for a longer period than any other of the Christian ecclesia in the Middle East).

Additionally, there may have been some internal opposition to continuation or christianization of an art form that had a long-standing history among their peoples in pre-Christian times - seeing it as something associated with paganism and, therefore, to be abandoned. Historic pre-Christian Assyro-Chaldean iconography was of a sculpted nature and has long been admired as an archeological treasure. You can see some examples here and here of its beauty and richness.

(Btw, the extraordinary visuals to be seen on the latter site make it well worth bookmarking and exploring at your liesure. Daniel Matsui’s blog is principally a compendium of incredible imagery, most of a religious nature, and is ever-fascinating.)

The uncovering of some early Assyro-Chaldean Christian iconographic images a few years back, sparked an interest and a call for revival of the usage, but there has been no groundswell of demand to do so as yet by clergy or laity of either Church. Presently, from my observations, those who would pursue it as other than a curiousity are those involved in intense study of the historical theological and spiritual praxis of the Churches. In an era when the faithful of both Churches are witnessing their historic homeland buffeted by secular violence, it’s a less pressing concern for most than merely surviving and sustaining their ability to worship according to their faith. Hopefully, in time, that will change and it will be further explored.

The use of a veil rather than an iconostasis is common among the Oriental Churches (albeit neither the Chaldeans nor Assyrians are technically Oriental - given the timing of their origins). If you look closely at the Assyrian church photo which Rony supplied, you can see it at the sides of the sanctuary there as well.

Many years,

Neil

 

[Irish_Melkite]

Would anybody happen to know what these respective numbers are, as well as the distinction between the Assyrian and ‘Ancient’ Churches?

There is some information on the numbers, but I’m not sure if this is the latest update:

The Chaldean Catholic Church
The Assyrian Church of the East

Unfortunately, I don’t know the numbers on the Ancient Church of the East. The schism between the Assyrian and Ancient Churches is mentioned in the Assyrian article above, as it relates to Mar Simon and those who were opposed to him. The efforts at reconciliation between these two Churches have taken a step closer recently, according to this article.

JJ,

The site linked by Rony contains the best available numbers online. I note that the difference between the two Churches is smaller than it has been in past reports. To what to attribute that, I’m unsure.

Certainly, the high numbers of emigrees to the diaspora on the part of both Churches has likely facilitated some accuracy in census-taking but religious censuses are, at all times, suspect - no matter what Church is reporting them. Who is counted, registered or active? And what means “active”? (For that matter, what means “registered”?) If you are doing anything other than hand-counting parishioners of a church on an otherwise uninhabited island, I defy you to rely on the data as accurate. I do believe that the number which Father Roberson reports as Assyrian includes those of the Ancient Church, which is principally a tribal-based ecclesia and usually estimated at 50-75K faithful, of whom relatively few are outside the historic homeland. (Last I checked, there were no parishes in the US; I believe there is one in Australia.)

Most reports suggest that the worldwide combined total of Christians attributed to the Chaldean, Assyrian, and Ancient Churches are in the range of 3/4 of a million. So, the linked numbers are in the ballpark. Approximately another 100K Iraqi Christians are usually ascribed to the Syriac Catholic and Orthodox, Armenian Catholic and Apostolic, Maronite Catholic, Melkite Catholic, Antiochian Orthodox, and Latin Catholic Churches. There is also possibly still a remnant Assyrian Orthodox population in the area of Urmia in the Northwest.

An additional 50K are Protestant Christians, chiefly Anglican, Presbyterian, or Evangelical.

Many years,

Neil

 

[Irish_Melkite]

I was speaking with a Romanian Orthodox who was dating an Assyrian. She knew he was church of the East, and knew of the Chaldeans, but she said his aunt was Assyrian, but “Catholic but not Chaldean.” Is there any such other group under Rome?

Catholic but not Chaldean can refer to the other groups mentioned by Aramis, but if this aunt is Assyrian, then she might be an ethnically Assyrian member of one of the Catholic Churches. Even in the Chaldean Catholic Church, there are Assyrian Catholics. For instance, the Western United States eparchy is known as: St. Peter the Apostle Catholic Diocese for Chaldeans and Assyrians

Or, this aunt could be a member of the Assyrian Church of the East, but refers to herself as Catholic. Sometimes, Assyrian Church of the East Christians will refer to themselves as Catholic. Their website includes Catholic in their name.

Or, it could be something else that I’m not aware of.

Isa,

I think Rony covered all the bases. Just to clarify - the term “Catholic” is a formal part of the Assyrian Church’s name, not just a usage on their website. And, as Rony notes about the Eparchy’s use of both “Chaldean” and “Assyrian”, I would point out that there are any number of Chaldean Catholic and Assyrian parishes in the US which style themselves as “Assyro-Chaldean”, while others use only one or the other term (Catholics using Chaldean, Assyrians using Assyrian). This relates to the ongoing debate - to which Rony alluded in an earlier post to this thread, IIRC - as to whether “Assyrian” and “Chaldean” relate specifically to different ethnic bodies or define two different religious bodies within the same ethnicity.

Many years,

Neil

 

[ronyodish]

The uncovering of some early Assyro-Chaldean Christian iconographic images a few years back, sparked an interest and a call for revival of the usage, but there has been no groundswell of demand to do so as yet by clergy or laity of either Church.

Neil,

Do you know if there is a website that shows many of these early Assyro-Chaldean Christian icons?

If you look closely at the Assyrian church photo which Rony supplied, you can see it at the sides of the sanctuary there as well.

Here is another one that shows the veil more clearly.

(Last I checked, there were no parishes in the US; I believe there is one in Australia.)

Here is one in Arizona. There is a youtube video of their choir.

Here is another one in California.

There is also possibly still a remnant Assyrian Orthodox population in the area of Urmia in the Northwest.

Do you have any information on this particular group, specifically, with whom they are in full communion? I once sent them some questions, but I never received a response.

God bless,

Rony

 

[Irish_Melkite]

Do you know if there is a website that shows many of these early Assyro-Chaldean Christian icons?

Rony,

I had a link at one time, but was unable to locate it last night. I think it may be on a “favorites” list in my old PC which died a few months back. I’ve picked up an external hard-drive and am going to try and recover those - if successful, I’ll post it.

Here is one in Arizona. There is a youtube video of their choir.

Here is another one in California.

Thanks very much. In checking futher, I see that there are now 4 in the US and 1 in Canada. And, I’m embarressed to say that, in looking at the website of Mar Shaleeta in LA, I realize that I’ve been to it previously and should have remembered it.

Do you have any information on this particular group, specifically, with whom they are in full communion? I once sent them some questions, but I never received a response.

Glad I checked the link - until I did, I presumed you were asking about the Assyrian Orthodox whom I referenced above. Haven’t heard much about the Chaldean Orthodox since the ceremony in which they presented a relic of St Ambrose to their Episcopalian landlords, a kind act which got them a little press at the time.

If you check out the photos at the Church site’s newslink, you’ll note that Mar O’d Ishu wears particularly Byzantine episcopal headgear. The ecclesia has a curious history that has had it allied with several non-canonical Eastern Orthodox Churches. They’ve historically been difficult to pin down with regard to matters such as apostolic succession - but, they likely have it. They definitely fall into that gray area of “independents”, but probably should not be labeled vagante, as I think they’re sufficiently well-intentioned to not merit the pejoratives associated with such a label. I used to have some notes on them - will try and resurrect those and see if there’s any info of interest.

As to them being in “full communion” - with no one, as I recollect.

Many years,

Neil

 

[Aramis]

Do you have any information on this particular group, specifically, with whom they are in full communion? I once sent them some questions, but I never received a response.

God bless,

Rony

They claim to be an “independent autocephalous orthodox church” which generally means “in communion with themselves alone”

Their bishops don’t get hits other than their own site when I googled them.

 

[ronyodish]

Glad I checked the link - until I did, I presumed you were asking about the Assyrian Orthodox whom I referenced above.

I thought perhaps they might have some historic connections with, including apostolic succession from, the Assyrian Orthodox of Urmia.

God bless,

Rony

 

[jj2011]

JJ,

The site linked by Rony contains the best available numbers online. I note that the difference between the two Churches is smaller than it has been in past reports. To what to attribute that, I’m unsure.

Certainly, the high numbers of emigrees to the diaspora on the part of both Churches has likely facilitated some accuracy in census-taking but religious censuses are, at all times, suspect - no matter what Church is reporting them. Who is counted, registered or active? And what means “active”? (For that matter, what means “registered”?) If you are doing anything other than hand-counting parishioners of a church on an otherwise uninhabited island, I defy you to rely on the data as accurate. I do believe that the number which Father Roberson reports as Assyrian includes those of the Ancient Church, which is principally a tribal-based ecclesia and usually estimated at 50-75K faithful, of whom relatively few are outside the historic homeland. (Last I checked, there were no parishes in the US; I believe there is one in Australia.)

Most reports suggest that the worldwide combined total of Christians attributed to the Chaldean, Assyrian, and Ancient Churches are in the range of 3/4 of a million. So, the linked numbers are in the ballpark. Approximately another 100K Iraqi Christians are usually ascribed to the Syriac Catholic and Orthodox, Armenian Catholic and Apostolic, Maronite Catholic, Melkite Catholic, Antiochian Orthodox, and Latin Catholic Churches. There is also possibly still a remnant Assyrian Orthodox population in the area of Urmia in the Northwest.

An additional 50K are Protestant Christians, chiefly Anglican, Presbyterian, or Evangelical.

Many years,

Neil

Thank you, Neil and Rony. My understanding was that there is proximate parity in numbers between Assyrians and Chaldeans, about 400,000 each.

 

[Chaldean_Rite]

                              [**                                  The Seminary of Mar Abba the Great**](http://kaldu.org/2008/03/Mar10_08E7.html)

 

[ronyodish]

Chaldean Rite,

Thanks for the link!

Mar Abba, pray for us

God bless,

Rony

 

[belgianwaffles9]

I was speaking with a Romanian Orthodox who was dating an Assyrian. She knew he was church of the East, and knew of the Chaldeans, but she said his aunt was Assyrian, but “Catholic but not Chaldean.” Is there any such other group under Rome?

Btw, Happy New Year to Ryondish, etc.

and I second Mardukm’s thoughts on more Orientals.

Someone who is Assyrian, Catholic and not Chaldean is probably one of three things:

Most likely, i think, is the Syriac Catholic Church. They split off from the Syriac Orthodox Church, which is an Oriental Orthodox Church of the Antiochene rite.

Also possible is the Maronite Catholic Church, which was never out of communion with Rome, and became officially distict from the Syriac Orthodox Church when it seperated in the first place after the council of Chalcedon.

The third option is the Melkite Catholic Church, which seperated from the Antiochian Orthodox Church. But Melkites see themselves, usually, as more Greek than Assyrian, so I think the other two options are more likely (The official full name is Melkite Greek Catholic Church, and it uses the Byzantine Rite; also, they are considered very ‘latinised’ for an Eastern Church).

 

[Ghosty]

(The official full name is Melkite Greek Catholic Church, and it uses the Byzantine Rite; also, they are considered very ‘latinised’ for an Eastern Church).

Not to stray too far off topic, but where have you heard that the Melkite Church is considered very “Latinised” for an Eastern Church? If anything I’ve heard and experienced quite the opposite; I’ve seen fewer Latin trappings in the Melkite Church than in any of the other Catholic Churches.

Peace and God bless!

 

[belgianwaffles9]

Not to stray too far off topic, but where have you heard that the Melkite Church is considered very “Latinised” for an Eastern Church? If anything I’ve heard and experienced quite the opposite; I’ve seen fewer Latin trappings in the Melkite Church than in any of the other Catholic Churches.

Peace and God bless!

Well, I’m sure the amount of ‘latinisation’ varies from place to place. And its probably become less and less latinised over time, as there has been a general trend towards re-adapting older practices among many eastern churches.

At first, wikipedia said it was considered a more latinised church, along with the malabar rite. I can certainly believe that to be true of the malabar church, due to heavy latinisation efforts on the part of portuguese colonizers, and the fact that it was those portuguese who brought the malabar church into communion with rome.

But i wanted to check up on the “latinicity” of the melkite church. During the crusades, when latin hierarchs were introduced into many Churches in the area, the Melkite church was apparently especially effected, especially by monastic orders. Since unification, it appears they have adopted some “latin” elements into their worship, most notably benediction of the Blessed Sacrament, which is foreign to Eastern worship (seen here).

Also, since Vatican II, the Melkites have been trying to remove the latinisations which existed, such as confessionals and kneeling at altar rails for communion, and reinstating eastern practices, such as baptism/eucharist/chrismation all at once. Recently, theres been debates within the Melkite Church, as some disagree with the use of vernacular, which was approved byt he Vatican in 1960, while others wish to keep the latin tradition of clerical celibacy.

I, personally, have not been to a Melkite liturgy. There is one in my home diocese which I plan to go to over summer break, however, so I will have to experience it for myself, and see if i can spot any latinisations.

 

[Ghosty]

Well, I’m sure the amount of ‘latinisation’ varies from place to place. And its probably become less and less latinised over time, as there has been a general trend towards re-adapting older practices among many eastern churches.

At first, wikipedia said it was considered a more latinised church, along with the malabar rite. I can certainly believe that to be true of the malabar church, due to heavy latinisation efforts on the part of portuguese colonizers, and the fact that it was those portuguese who brought the malabar church into communion with rome.

But i wanted to check up on the “latinicity” of the melkite church. During the crusades, when latin hierarchs were introduced into many Churches in the area, the Melkite church was apparently especially effected, especially by monastic orders. Since unification, it appears they have adopted some “latin” elements into their worship, most notably benediction of the Blessed Sacrament, which is foreign to Eastern worship (seen here).

Also, since Vatican II, the Melkites have been trying to remove the latinisations which existed, such as confessionals and kneeling at altar rails for communion, and reinstating eastern practices, such as baptism/eucharist/chrismation all at once. Recently, theres been debates within the Melkite Church, as some disagree with the use of vernacular, which was approved byt he Vatican in 1960, while others wish to keep the latin tradition of clerical celibacy.

I, personally, have not been to a Melkite liturgy. There is one in my home diocese which I plan to go to over summer break, however, so I will have to experience it for myself, and see if i can spot any latinisations.

Fair enough, though I’d recommend not relying much on Wikipedia for such information since there is no objective way to measure “latinization”, and Wikipedia is modifiable by anyone.

I practice regularily at the local Melkite Mission, and I’ve not noticed any specifically Melkite Latinizations. Almost all of the old “latinizations” have been removed, with the exception of the Benediction of the Blessed Sacrament, which I’m not even sure can be considered a true “latinization” since it was created by the Melkite Church with Byzantine sensibilities in mind. They didn’t adopt it to appear more “Latin”, or due to outside pressure, but developed their own version after being impressed by the tradition of the Latin Church.

Peace and God bless!

 

[Chaldean_Rite]

kaldu.org/2008/11/Nov19_08E1.html

prayers, of course, are always needed as well.