Chalice Requirements

[WT1]

I attended an out of town Mass this evening that was performed by a Jesuit priest and the Chalice that was used appeared and felt like ceramic. My understanding was this wasn’t allowed:

Based on these instructions, the chalice cannot be made out of glass or ceramic, two substances that are not durable. The cup of the chalice must not be made out of wood as this is an absorbant material or any other material which deteriorates easily. The exact form of the chalice is up to the individual artist but it must be suited to holding the Precious Blood. Therefore it needs a wide enough base to prevent tipping and a deep enough cup to prevent the liquid from spilling as the chalice is moved. I would also recomend, practicaly speaking, that the chalice should have a node in the middle of the stem to allow for easy handling.

Now I understand it’s Holy Week and the Crucifixes and other crosses were veiled so I wasn’t sure if this was part of that process. I have never attended a Jesuit Mass in a Jesuit Chapel so I’m just not sure what the traditions are.

Note I’m not worried about liturgical abuse or anything else improper as I was at a top notch institution with well trained priest that are very much superior in knowledge than myself. I’m just curious as to a Chalice that was not metal because I haven’t experienced one before.

 

[zab]

Instruction Redemptionis Sacramentum vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/ccdds/documents/rc_con_ccdds_doc_20040423_redemptionis-sacramentum_en.html#Chapter V

**

**3. Sacred **

[117.] Sacred vessels for containing the Body and Blood of the Lord must be made in strict conformity with the norms of tradition and of the liturgical books the Bishops’ Conferences have the faculty to decide whether it is appropriate, once their decisions have been given the recognitio by the Apostolic See, for sacred vessels to be made of other solid materials as well. It is strictly required, however, that such materials be truly noble in the common estimation within a given region so that honour will be given to the Lord by their use, and all risk of diminishing the doctrine of the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharistic species in the eyes of the faithful will be avoided. Reprobated, therefore, is any practice of using for the celebration of Mass common vessels, or others lacking in quality, or devoid of all artistic merit or which are mere containers, as also other vessels made from glass, earthenware, clay, or other materials that break easily. This norm is to be applied even as regards metals and other materials that easily rust or deteriorate.
**

 

[surritter]

Note I’m not worried about liturgical abuse or anything else improper as I was at a top notch institution with well trained priest that are very much superior in knowledge than myself.

Don’t that that impress you. Some of the most well-educated clerics are the most likely to appoint themselves as superior to the Church when it comes to following the mandatory rubrics!

 

[PazzoGrande]

Don’t that that impress you. Some of the most well-educated clerics are the most likely to appoint themselves as superior to the Church when it comes to following the mandatory rubrics!

Back when Cardinal Mahony was still Archbishop of Los Angeles, CNN covered him in the news and showed footage of him using a glass chalice. This was before the reiteration from the Vatican that glass chalices can’t be used, but still the rule against it had been in place even before that.

My parish is a Cathedral and used glass chalices too, until the Vatican reiterated that it cannot do that.

So… yeah even people who are supposed to be well-qualified do mess up.

 

[FrDavid96]

I attended an out of town Mass this evening that was performed by a Jesuit priest and the Chalice that was used appeared and felt like ceramic. My understanding was this wasn’t allowed:

Now I understand it’s Holy Week and the Crucifixes and other crosses were veiled so I wasn’t sure if this was part of that process. I have never attended a Jesuit Mass in a Jesuit Chapel so I’m just not sure what the traditions are.

Note I’m not worried about liturgical abuse or anything else improper as I was at a top notch institution with well trained priest that are very much superior in knowledge than myself. I’m just curious as to a Chalice that was not metal because I haven’t experienced one before.

No, it isn’t a special rule for Holy Week. Ceramic chalices are always forbidden, no matter the occasion or season.

 

[WT1]

Don’t that that impress you. Some of the most well-educated clerics are the most likely to appoint themselves as superior to the Church when it comes to following the mandatory rubrics!

I honestly don’t worry about it I just put faith in my God, His Church and His priests. Too many Catholics get overly excited and legalistic about the tiniest things. I typically don’t focus on “mistakes” but on the message, intent and what God wants me to learn.

The one thing I am sure of is that God doesn’t want me spending my time in Mass worried about what others are doing or judging others so I try not too.

 

[WT1]

​

No, it isn’t a special rule for Holy Week. Ceramic chalices are always forbidden, no matter the occasion or season.

To be fair it looked and felt ceramic but I’m no expert on materials either.

 

[PazzoGrande]

The thing is, the rules are in place for a reason: the Church is the dispenser of the message of a Christ and the rules are there to help stay on message. The point of having a non-breakable Chalice is to show the dignity of the Blood of Christ. The interior of the cup is supposed to be gilded so it doesn’t get tainted by tarnish or rust. There are good reasons for the rules, and those of us who spend time on them are to help the Church purvey the dignity and message of Christ.

 

[WT1]

The thing is, the rules are in place for a reason: the Church is the dispenser of the message of a Christ and the rules are there to help stay on message. The point of having a non-breakable Chalice is to show the dignity of the Blood of Christ. The interior of the cup is supposed to be gilded so it doesn’t get tainted by tarnish or rust. There are good reasons for the rules, and those of us who spend time on them are to help the Church purvey the dignity and message of Christ.

Ok I won’t judge. You prefer to be Martha in the kitchen while I prefer to be Mary at Christ’s feet. The world needs both.

 

[janeway529]

I attended an out of town Mass this evening that was performed by a Jesuit priest and the Chalice that was used appeared and felt like ceramic. My understanding was this wasn’t allowed:

Now I understand it’s Holy Week and the Crucifixes and other crosses were veiled so I wasn’t sure if this was part of that process. I have never attended a Jesuit Mass in a Jesuit Chapel so I’m just not sure what the traditions are.

Note I’m not worried about liturgical abuse or anything else improper as I was at a top notch institution with well trained priest that are very much superior in knowledge than myself. I’m just curious as to a Chalice that was not metal because I haven’t experienced one before.

Perhaps the chalice was a gift from a Native American community? Or perhaps the Jesuit priest is Native American? Maybe the inside was lined with gold or silver? The only time I’ve seen ceramic used as liturgical vessels is with Native American communities.

Most prominently, from last year’s LA Religious Education Congress: youtube.com/watch?v=Rsa3an1_sNE

 

[janeway529]

I found a photo of a ciboria used at the Papal Mass in Amman, Jordan (5-24-2014), and it appears to be made of ceramic.

 

[Brendan]

I honestly don’t worry about it I just put faith in my God, His Church and His priests. Too many Catholics get overly excited and legalistic about the tiniest things. I typically don’t focus on “mistakes” but on the message, intent and what God wants me to learn.

The one thing I am sure of is that God doesn’t want me spending my time in Mass worried about what others are doing or judging others so I try not too.

Good, the Church has said that it would be a ‘grave abuse’ to use such a vessel. One that puts the dignity of the Most Holy Eucharist at risk.

117 is the requirement that Zab listed earlier in the thread.

[173.] Although the gravity of a matter is to be judged in accordance with the common teaching of the Church and the norms established by her, objectively to be considered among grave matters is anything that puts at risk the validity and dignity of the Most Holy Eucharist: namely, anything that contravenes what is set out above in nn. 48-52, 56, 76-77, 79, 91-92, 94, 96, 101-102, 104, 106, 109, 111, 115, 117, 126, 131-133, 138, 153 and 168. Moreover, attention should be given to the other prescriptions of the Code of Canon Law, and especially what is laid down by canons 1364, 1369, 1373, 1376, 1380, 1384, 1385, 1386, and 1398.

So do place your trust in the Church and recognize it for what the Church has declared it to be, a grave abuse. One that the Church has specifically declared to be so.

And you don’t need to judge another, the vessel is not a person, and it is the Church that has deemed it unworthy of use as a Sacred Vessel. Not you.

All you need to do is to recognize as factual what the Church has declared to be so.
And then to do what the Church has instructed in such cases

[183.] In an altogether particular manner, let everyone do all that is in their power to ensure that the Most Holy Sacrament of the Eucharist will be protected from any and every irreverence or distortion and that all abuses be thoroughly corrected. This is a most serious duty incumbent upon each and every one, and all are bound to carry it out without any favoritism.

So you are not required to Judge anything, the Church does that for you. And then when you see, in fact, an abuse that the Church has declared, you are then instructed to to all within your power to see that it is corrected.

That is the instruction given to ‘each and every one’ that we are all “bound to carry it out without any favoritism”

Do you not agree?

( All citations from Redemptionis Sacramentum)

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/ccdds/documents/rc_con_ccdds_doc_20040423_redemptionis-sacramentum_en.html

 

[Brendan]

Perhaps the chalice was a gift from a Native American community? Or perhaps the Jesuit priest is Native American? Maybe the inside was lined with gold or silver? The only time I’ve seen ceramic used as liturgical vessels is with Native American communities.

It does not matter if it was given by Native Americans, nor if it was lined with gold.

It is glass or earthenware, it is specifically forbidden

…as also other vessels made from glass, earthenware, clay, or other materials that break easily

 

[janeway529]

It does not matter if it was given by Native Americans, nor if it was lined with gold.

It is glass or earthenware, it is specifically forbidden

If it is lined with gold, one can argue that the vessel is worthy since what holds the Precious Blood is gold, not ceramic. You do realize the OP mentioned that the Mass was within the Jesuit Community, not a regular parish. In community, sometimes things will be done differently than what the OP is used to.

 

[eightydeuce82]

If it is lined with gold, one can argue that the vessel is worthy since what holds the Precious Blood is gold, not ceramic. You do realize the OP mentioned that the Mass was within the Jesuit Community, not a regular parish. In community, sometimes things will be done differently than what the OP is used to.

It doesn’t matter what community it is held the Church has spoken on the matter and wrong is wrong.

 

[Brendan]

If it is lined with gold, one can argue that the vessel is worthy since what holds the Precious Blood is gold, not ceramic.

That is only one aspect of the requirements, the other ( 117) also refers to the breakability of the material.

Here is the reference again

Reprobated, therefore, is any practice of using for the celebration of Mass common vessels, or others lacking in quality, or devoid of all artistic merit or which are mere containers, as also other vessels made from glass, earthenware, clay, or other materials that break easily. This norm is to be applied even as regards metals and other materials that easily rust or deteriorate.

The vessel seen might certainly have been of quality, and of artistic merit, but the vessel is made of earthenware, it is forbidden.

You do realize the OP mentioned that the Mass was within the Jesuit Community, not a regular parish. In community, sometimes things will be done differently than what the OP is used to.

Yes, but this is not a matter of what we are ‘used to’, but rather following the directives of the Vatican for the conduct of the liturgy.

Jesuits are no more entitled to commit what the Vatican has described as being a grave abuse than a diocesan priest.

 

[eightydeuce82]

That is only one aspect of the requirements, the other ( 117) also refers to the breakability of the material.

Here is the reference again

The vessel seen might certainly have been of quality, and of artistic merit, but the vessel is made of earthenware, it is forbidden.

Yes, but this is not a matter of what we are ‘used to’, but rather following the directives of the Vatican for the conduct of the liturgy.

Jesuits are no more entitled to commit what the Vatican has described as being a grave abuse than a diocesan priest.

This is why I get so frustrated. People get so upset at Catholics who pay attention to things like this. I get chastised for being “too by the book” all the time. Comments like why do you make things complicated? Bla bla bla. I’m just baffled when people come out with and believe that anything goes and when challenged just say “I’m not into all the details” or they just go with the flow. They would be singing a different tune if they found out that their Eucharist was not valid at their local parish or that the consecration never happened and all they were receiving was bread. The details are important and are what makes us Catholic. Falling for the anything goes and “whatever” attitude makes us no different than the protestant line of thinking. Many people have died because of the “details” throughout history. Literally schisms of huge magnitude have resulted over in part for things like what do we make the bread out of.

 

[Brendan]

. I’m just baffled when people come out with and believe that anything goes and when challenged just say “I’m not into all the details” or they just go with the flow.

I will admit, that there are sometthings where it is fine to go with the flow. Since the Vatican has specifically instructed the faithful and clergy to do all that is in their power to correct certain abuses, this being one of them, I have no option but to do so.

 

[eightydeuce82]

I will admit, that there are sometthings where it is fine to go with the flow. Since the Vatican has specifically instructed the faithful and clergy to do all that is in their power to correct certain abuses, this being one of them, I have no option but to do so.

No argument here. I actually have a priest here at my church that asks me after Mass how it went and if all was well. He values my opinion and is always concerned that he may have missed something. Its nice to see that he knows I have a great understanding of the Mass and eye for the details. Now the other Priest not so much and in my experience fraternal correction is not taken with open arms. Especially coming from a well educated lay person.

 

[WT1]

This is why I get so frustrated. People get so upset at Catholics who pay attention to things like this. I get chastised for being “too by the book” all the time. Comments like why do you make things complicated? Bla bla bla. I’m just baffled when people come out with and believe that anything goes and when challenged just say “I’m not into all the details” or they just go with the flow. They would be singing a different tune if they found out that their Eucharist was not valid at their local parish or that the consecration never happened and all they were receiving was bread. The details are important and are what makes us Catholic. Falling for the anything goes and “whatever” attitude makes us no different than the protestant line of thinking. Many people have died because of the “details” throughout history. Literally schisms of huge magnitude have resulted over in part for things like what do we make the bread out of.

I don’t think Christ is going to deny me HIS gift at a valid Mass because of another’s mistake He will find a way through our faith.