Challenge from a Skeptic re: Miracles

[Sideline]

You know people who go into remission from cancer without praying, go through Chemotherapy. It is called medicine. Chemotherapy, radiation, or surgury that was able to take out all of the cancer. I’ve never heard of it happening any other way except through prayer.

Then you haven’t studied it.

And besides that, I would imagine everyone who has cancer does at least acknowledge God, even if just in hopes that He will take care of themselves and family members that might suffer at their loss.

Wow. That’s great. Everyone who has cancer believes in God, so if they get better it’s because of prayer.

Where is your documented proof that without prayer or medicine, cancer just disappears?

Look up “cancer remission”. They have actually identified genetic tests to see if you are more susceptible to remission with certain types of cancer.

And, while you are at it, please explain to me that my cousin was full of cancer one minute, then with only prayer and faith and HOLY WATER, the next minute he felt himself being healed, and the cancer was totally gone…no medical or scientif explanation? Tell me what happened. You said that there was scientific explanation, so what is it?

How long in between tests for cancer was it? You never said

Can you p(name removed by moderator)oint the remission to that day? Week? Month? Year?
Did he have a medical check-up that morning? How long in between check-ups was it? How do you know it was the holy water? What else happened in that same period of time?

You think that holy water has the ability to heal someone, even though about 99% of the time people who are sprinkled with holy water suffer the same fate as those that aren’t.

The thing is, thousands of events probably happened to your cousin between finding out he wasn’t in remission and then finding out he was. (He survived a hurricane for instance.) But crediting those things doesn’t reinforce your world view so you ignore them.

How many people in the world have cancer?
How many people in the world have cancer go into remission in any given year? We’re talking very, very big numbers, right?

What are the odds that none of those people went to some faith-based or alternative medicine treatment before finding out they went into remission? Almost nil, right?

Now most of those people would undergo those treatments hoping that they would work. It is only reasonable that when those people went into remission they credited the faith-based or alternative therapy for their success.

See where I’m going with this? If 1,000,000 million people try sprinkling someone who has cancer with holy water, and 10% of those people get better, then you are going to have 100,000 miracles. Even if you have a 0.01% chance you are still going to have 1,000 miracles.

While you are at it, explain what science has been unable to about the Stigmata of Padre Pio.

No one watched him 24 hours a day under proper observation, so the simplest explanation is that he cut himself. As most people who have stigmata are observed doing.

 

[KephasAugustine]

How about this for a proof of a miracle.

A few months ago I got an rectal abscess. It was about 1 inch long inside my rectum. That night I started praying. The next night I went to take a soak as thats common practice for abscesses but soaking alone cannot cure it. I then asked Mary to intercede for me. To ask Jesus to heal me by still waters like she did at the wedding when she asked Jesus to turn water into wine. I kept praying and praying and in a moment I had no pain. The abscess was completely gone. I went to the doctor the next day and he couldn’t believe that I was walking in when the day before i was keeled over with pain and had to be wheelchaired in to the ER. There was no other explanation for my healing. They did nothing but give me an antibiotic that I was supposed to wait a few days to take anyway so I had no medications in my system. I still thank God to this day for that.

Thank you Lord

I hope that’s enough for you to believe a miracle happened

I love these testimonies. Let’s keep 'em coming!

 

[KephasAugustine]

How long in between tests for cancer was it? You never said

2.5 weeks. Keep up.

No one watched him 24 hours a day under proper observation, so the simplest explanation is that he cut himself. As most people who have stigmata are observed doing.

Except in Pio’s case the stigmata disappeared shortly before he died. It’s too recent to be pure legend…but again, nice try.

 

[Sideline]

2.5 weeks. Keep up.

I’m sorry, I was writing a response at the time, when my post timed out, and I missed it.

I’ll try to be better at doing 3 things at once to your complete satisfaction.

Except in Pio’s case the stigmata disappeared shortly before he died. It’s too recent to be pure legend…but again, nice try.

So he stopped cutting himself before he died. Why is that a surprise?

Who said it was pure legend? I said it was a fraud.

 

[KephasAugustine]

I’m sorry, I was writing a response at the time, when my post timed out, and I missed it.

I’ll try to be better at doing 3 things at once to your complete satisfaction.

Thank you.

So he stopped cutting himself before he died. Why is that a surprise?

Who said it was pure legend? I said it was a fraud.

No no no…there are no scars; no marks at all. The stigmata couldn’t have been fake, as it was looked at by many doctors while he was alive and it was real blood coming from real wounds. When he died, there was no trace.

Look, you can argue until you’re blue in the face…but that doesn’t change what doctors, scientists, and others have examined and found. You write people off as frauds just because you don’t like findings with which you disagree. Are you more qualified than all of them?

 

[Sideline]

I admit that there have been hoaxes; you say they “usually” are, which doesn’t prove anything except the fact that you agree that some are not hoaxes. Care to explain those ones? Or do you just not want to accept it?

Sometimes they are fictional accounts. Sometimes it is natural phenomena… and sometimes they are hoaxes.

Skeptics by definition have a desire to disbelieve anything they themselves can’t “prove,” regardless of how many other people have examined, experienced, and “proven” it.

Actually, things that have been proved, I have no problem with.

This is a bit philosophically off-topic, but I’ve never gotten a straight answer: how is the experience of one person less credible than another person’s inexperience?

They aren’t. What it is more credible when someone looks at the experience of many people without bias to success.

Let’s say I pray to Zeus, and my hypoglycemia goes away. I conclude that it is because I prayed to Zeus. You can’t conclude it isn’t just based on the fact that Zeus hasn’t blessed you.

However, if you get 1,000,000 million people who have illnesses to pray to Zeus, and the number that gets better is consistent with chance, then you have good reason to think that Zeus had nothing to do with my cure.

 

[KephasAugustine]

Let’s say I pray to Zeus, and my hypoglycemia goes away. I conclude that it is because I prayed to Zeus. You can’t conclude it isn’t just based on the fact that Zeus hasn’t blessed you.

However, if you get 1,000,000 million people who have illnesses to pray to Zeus, and the number that gets better is consistent with chance, then you have good reason to think that Zeus had nothing to do with my cure.

For this I refer you to cpayne’s post above. He did a pretty good job with it, better than I could.

 

[Sideline]

Thank you.

You’re welcome. :tiphat:

No no no…there are no scars; no marks at all. The stigmata couldn’t have been fake, as it was looked at by many doctors while he was alive and it was real blood coming from real wounds. When he died, there was no trace.

Look, you can argue until you’re blue in the face…but that doesn’t change what doctors, scientists, and others have examined and found. You write people off as frauds just because you don’t like findings with which you disagree. Are you more qualified than all of them?

I am and I’m not. I’m not a scientist or a doctor. But I spent four years in university studying human behaviour. My job is to convince people they want to do what I want them to do, and I do magic as a hobby.

I study with, work for, and learn from liars. I am constantly bombarded with people who are very good at fooling people.

Scientists usually deal with subjects that aren’t trying to mess them up. People don’t usually go to doctors trying to fool them. (Sometimes they do, but not usually.) Neither of them are especially trained in dealing with frauds.

If someone has said that the only explanation for something is a supernatural one, then they probably haven’t looked at it closely enough.

 

[Sideline]

I know that Carl Sagan makes this claim; however, the comparisons I’ve seen (including his) have missed the point.

You can’t just compare remission rates* over the course of the cancer’s progress *between those who pray and those who don’t. You would have to take a sample time from the life of the praying person—say, one year from the time the person first prayed that his or her cancer would be healed. Then take any random year in the life of the non-praying person with cancer (any year, that is, after the person first discovered the cancer).

If the remission rates in *those *years were roughly the same, then your claim would be demonstrably correct.

I’ve never read Sagan, but the studies I’ve seen on prayer do exactly what you are suggesting. They compare people who are actively praying with those who aren’t over the same period of time.

I might also point this out: Prayer has other good results besides just the result of “getting exactly what I ask for.” These results are more difficult to chart, but are nonetheless real.

That might be, but it has nothing to do whether it works.

If the thread had the title “Prayer is amazingly satisfying.” I wouldn’t have dreamed of posting.

 

[rwoehmke]

Definition of a miracle is something that happens with no apparent natural explanation. Seems like this definition has been met time and again. It would seem to me that no one is required to accept this and if the OP has a problem with miracles, I would say its fine to not accept them, but since he is the one with the notion that their has to be a natural explanation, it is up to him to prove it. At this point he is merely speculating. He has an unproven faith in the notion that there has to be a natural explanation.

 

[KephasAugustine]

Definition of a miracle is something that happens with no apparent natural explanation. Seems like this definition has been met time and again. It would seem to me that no one is required to accept this and if the OP has a problem with miracles, I would say its fine to not accept them, but since he is the one with the notion that their has to be a natural explanation, it is up to him to prove it. At this point he is merely speculating. He has an unproven faith in the notion that there has to be a natural explanation.

True, and I also think it is important to bear in mind that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

Then you haven’t studied it.

Wow. That’s great. Everyone who has cancer believes in God, so if they get better it’s because of prayer.

Look up “cancer remission”. They have actually identified genetic tests to see if you are more susceptible to remission with certain types of cancer.

How long in between tests for cancer was it? You never said

Can you p(name removed by moderator)oint the remission to that day? Week? Month? Year?
Did he have a medical check-up that morning? How long in between check-ups was it? How do you know it was the holy water? What else happened in that same period of time?

You think that holy water has the ability to heal someone, even though about 99% of the time people who are sprinkled with holy water suffer the same fate as those that aren’t.

The thing is, thousands of events probably happened to your cousin between finding out he wasn’t in remission and then finding out he was. (He survived a hurricane for instance.) But crediting those things doesn’t reinforce your world view so you ignore them.

How many people in the world have cancer?
How many people in the world have cancer go into remission in any given year? We’re talking very, very big numbers, right?

What are the odds that none of those people went to some faith-based or alternative medicine treatment before finding out they went into remission? Almost nil, right?

Now most of those people would undergo those treatments hoping that they would work. It is only reasonable that when those people went into remission they credited the faith-based or alternative therapy for their success.

See where I’m going with this? If 1,000,000 million people try sprinkling someone who has cancer with holy water, and 10% of those people get better, then you are going to have 100,000 miracles. Even if you have a 0.01% chance you are still going to have 1,000 miracles.

No one watched him 24 hours a day under proper observation, so the simplest explanation is that he cut himself. As most people who have stigmata are observed doing.

Sideline, you are seeming hysterical. I assume that means that you are aware that you have LOST the debate.
I did indeed state that it was 2 1/2 weeks give or take just a few days. He went to the doctor a couple of days before evacuating. They told him that he needed to go very soon to start again on the chemo. When he showed up to another doctor…the one in New Orleans was obviously unavailable, about 2 1/2 weeks later, the cancer was proven to be gone.

I didn’t say that every case of remission is a miraculous cure. I asked you for evidence that a cure or remission has taken place without the help of medicine or faith based prayer for a miracle. You have given me something that says that genetically, some people are more prone to remission for some types of cancer. That does not answer my question.

It was the faith behind the using the Holy Water. And he had evacuated and was enjoying visiting with my aunt and other family members…albeit upset about what was happening. He was not in the middle of the hurricane…as if that would have made the cancer go into remission. There is no medical explanation…no matter how you try to change the fact.

Medical treatment works…ya know, surgury, chemotherapy, radiation. I asked for an example …a real documented example where someone went into remission without medical treatment nor faith based treatment.

And, do you think for one minute that your argument about Padre Pio hasn’t already been PROVEN wrong? Are you one of those people who think that they have original ideas in this area?

 

[strngrnrth]

I come from an entertainment-oriented family (no, none of us is exactly famous), and I learned some magic as a kid myself, and I know the difference.
I have also studied biology and read a great deal about medical news and diagnostic criteria as well as other medical topics. I have studied physics, linguistics, a little anthro, some psych – learning theory and abnormal – and a lot about history and mythology. I was raised as a militant atheist in the strict sense of both words. I had numerous experiences as a child that were in some cases verified by others, which were definitely outside what the current laws of science allow. I struggled for years with my curiosity about the supernatural v. my atheistic upbringing, the materialistic culture around me, and my desire to be scientific in a society constructed atop a teetering false dichotomy between the supernatural and science. I became deeply immersed in the occult several times, then ran in horror and terror of what I’d experienced there into the cold arms of atheism, only to be drawn back by repeated supernatural experiences.
Offering money to anyone who can “produce” a miracle on demand in a “controlled setting” as if that had any bearing on the real possibility of miracles is exactly like offering money to anyone who conceives quadruplets on cue in controlled conditions and proves to the satisfaction of the one who would have to pony up the cash that it wasn’t a result of fertility drugs or any sort of trick, and saying the lack of such results proves there have never been any quads.
When a body part regrows the skeptics scream for video proof it was ever missing, for a DVD of the regrowth itself, for a polygraph for all involved, and if these are not available because most people don’t spend all their lives filming themselves and many healings happen while the person sleeps, and because video cameras have only recently become available and many people still don’t have them, they try to make it sound as if thousands of witnesses were “trying to trick” some self-described skeptic somewhere.
I guess some people won’t believe even if they see someone rise from the dead.

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

Sometimes they are fictional accounts. Sometimes it is natural phenomena… and sometimes they are hoaxes.

Actually, things that have been proved, I have no problem with.

They aren’t. What it is more credible when someone looks at the experience of many people without bias to success.

Let’s say I pray to Zeus, and my hypoglycemia goes away. I conclude that it is because I prayed to Zeus. You can’t conclude it isn’t just based on the fact that Zeus hasn’t blessed you.

However, if you get 1,000,000 million people who have illnesses to pray to Zeus, and the number that gets better is consistent with chance, then you have good reason to think that Zeus had nothing to do with my cure.

That would depend. Did you take any medicine for the disease?
Did you due what your doctors told you to do for it to go away. Or did you go on vacation and only pray about it?

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

You’re welcome. :tiphat:

I am and I’m not. I’m not a scientist or a doctor. But I spent four years in university studying human behaviour. My job is to convince people they want to do what I want them to do, and I do magic as a hobby.

I study with, work for, and learn from liars. I am constantly bombarded with people who are very good at fooling people.

Scientists usually deal with subjects that aren’t trying to mess them up. People don’t usually go to doctors trying to fool them. (Sometimes they do, but not usually.) Neither of them are especially trained in dealing with frauds.

If someone has said that the only explanation for something is a supernatural one, then they probably haven’t looked at it closely enough.

So let me understand. Are you saying that my cousin still has cancer and by all rights, according to you, he is dead? I am just fooling myself into thinking that he was cured?
or
According to you, he slipped out unawares in the middle of the night…in a house with 30 people. He snuck out without anyone knowing he was going to the doctor. He went to the doctor once or twice, in the middle of the night so no one knew…for some odd reason he didn’t want anyone to know…and the medicine that the doctor gave him cured him.
Of course!!! It must be that he had it in his mind to lie and cheat all of these people. He wanted to hide from everyone that he was going to the doctor.

THAT IS THE MOST ABSURD THING I HAVE HEARD IN A LONG TIME!!!

Have you ever been around a person undergoing chemotherapy or radiation? They are sick.

 

[reluctant_saint]

Having recently read David Hume’s “An Enquiry Concerning Human Understanding” I feel like I have some qualifications to weigh in on this topic.

 Firstly, I do recall hearing about a miracle where a person's eye grew back (through the intersession of Parde Pio). As I am not too familiar with this case, however, I really can't say more. I can only say that such a miracle, if well documented, would indeed stand as proof for miracles of regeneration. However, I am not here going to argue the point.

 Getting back to the original topic of this thread, the question is geared not so much towards one's own convictions about miracles in general, but about why Christians do not pray for certain miracles. Christians, it is true, do not pray for a person's amputated arm to grow back. The skeptic retorts that this demonstrates that even Christians are skeptics. They don't pray for something as improbable as that. They tend to pray for things they can't see and do not understand. It is easy to pray for cancer to go into remission because we understand so little about it. Cancer itself is rather mysterious to the average person. Science cannot as of yet totally prove where it comes from, nor how it operates. It is shrouded in what might be called a natural mystery. The idea of cancer is over-mystified. It carries with it the same aura that death does. Death function of two levels. The one level is the biological level which we tend to think about less. The other level in the personal lever, where death is seen are the separation of people from one another and from the world, which is much more along the lines of how Christians view it. Christians are inclined toward the mysterious. They are attracted to what they do not know or understand. They can pray that someone will not die, because death is seen on the mysterious level and not on the natural level. They can pray that cancer go into remission since they view cancer on the mysterious level (pain, suffering, death) and not on the natural level. But show a Christian something clear cut, and he shies away from prayer. A missing arm, which God could presumable cure, carries nothing of this mysterious aura. It's gone. It's not there. There's nothing mysterious about it. The Christian fully understands this, and thus does not dream about praying for it. There is no mystery involved. Understanding blots out desire to pray. When faced with absolute reality, pure and naked reality, the Christian himself becomes a skeptic. The reality forbids him from praying for God's grace in the matter, since such prayer would contradict man's own understand. 

 This is what the skeptic says about prayer. He argues that any resource to God is only an attempt fill in the blank spots of human understanding. However, as science progresses, and we understand more and more the realities of the universe, the need for God will fall away. Human understanding destroys the gods.

 Just to make sure, will you skeptics out their please tell me whether or not you agree with this. Am I giving an accurate presentation of skepticism?

 I hope this post serves to put this thread in the right direction.

 

[Pani_Rose]

A dear priest friend of ours, some years ago was at a healing service of Fr. DiOrio’s. There was a man sitting next to him in the isle in a wheel chair with a missing leg, but Fr. wasn’t paying much attention to him though. As the evening progressed, and the healing service was under way, healings were taking place, he happened to notice something moving out of the cornor of his eye. He looked to see what was happening, well it was just what you asked about.

The man sitting beside him in the wheel chair, with the missing leg - he grew another leg.

God bless you!

 

[Pani_Rose]

This is a post, I had placed elsewhere in regards to my husbands health crisis this past spring Feb., March, and April - his healing is in direct correlation to prayer.

Dear Brothers and Sisters in Christ,

I want to share a bit of our journey over these last weeks in regards to my husbands health and my health (which is minor). Here is a bit of the events as they have occured and I shared with those who I had asked for prayer. Things seemed to happen so fast, I didn’t get to ask here, but wanted to share the miracle with you, because I know you pray!

My husband had been in the hospital for over a week by the time I went to the ER to get a shot. My shot in the emergency room ended up in a 9 day stay in the hospital for me. Well, at least we were under the same roof, not room, but same roof http://www.chnetwork.org/forums/images/emoticons/wink.gif Jesus was present there in the Eucharist so we were blessed.

I have to share a little, let me see if I can recall the sequence of events…

1. I heard the Lord say on Tuesday (that would be two weeks ago) ‘all for my honor and glory.’ I said ok Lord! By Tuesday night, it was clear he was becoming disoriented and could not function on his own and they placed him in the step down unit for cardiac care for a dopamean(sp) drip -which they didn’t do. Then they moved him to CICU for dialysis. Then on Sunday, as they were moving him from CICU into MICU Fr. Deacon Seraphim brought a small icon of the Theotokos, which got placed on his chest and remained there for several days.

2. Fr. Deacon Stan got steadily worse, his kidneys shut down completely. The four pints of blood became four more pounds of fulid. He was placed on 24 hr diaylsis.

3. He had too much CO2 so they placed a tube in him - innovated him, I guess with a ventalator - to get it out.

4. By then, he was gone, there was no communication from him for four days.

5. They said he was heart was holding strong, pumping 50% of the blood it saw, which was great and keeping his body going, considering two years before he had had quadruple bypass surgery and had been in congestive heart failure(God even prepared that).

They said he was still there.

6. Monday, a week ago, our Lord Jesus Christ, sent three priests to pray with him:

a. Fr. Wriggly annointed him in the morning - he slightly opened his eyes, but just as quickly went back out.

b. Fr. Isi gave him to the Lord that if his life was to be a vegtable then to take him home. If not, then heal him. This was at midnoon. He pressed on his chest accidently, and Stan’s eyes opened wide, but he went back out.

c. Fr. Frank (our priest) came, it was late noon, early evening. He annointed him, used relics I know of St. George, but not certain who else, I think a combination. Prayed with him. Deacon opened his eyes and tried to follow and then went back out.

The kids came that evening (I am only going by what I have been told, as I was in the hospital myslef, on the next floor). The kids said he opened his eyes, and followed them around the room.

The next morning, the nurse said, he had his eyes opened and was responding to her commands.

Then his blood gases got better. The next day - actually his hands were strapped down - he managed to pull out the ventalator tube from his throat. His fighting spirit was backhttp://www.chnetwork.org/forums/images/emoticons/big_grin.gif

That evening I think it was, they said his kidneys started working.

Two other couples came by to pray for him.

The next day the dialysis machine coagulated, since it was at night, they had to wait till morning to get it back online. HIS KIDNEYS WORKED THE REST OF THE NIGHT!

They put him back on dialysis. His blood gases improved so much they took him off the ventelator. By then they were removing three liters of fluid and hour from his body.

WELL! YOUR FAITHFULNESS TO PRAYER, AS BROUGHT FORTH A MIRACLE.

They removed 66 pounds of fluid from him. He weighed 244 when we took him in, he weighed 174, about where he was when this all started. He is NOT on dialysis, his figures are good enough and kidney function too, that they don’t think he will have need of diaylsis. His lung function is normal, his heart function is normal, and it is all somehow by God’s grace becoming normal. He had been on a feeding tube and is now feeding himself, what little he eats, but he is!

The first food he received after the ventelator was removed - THE EUCHARIST!

He is not totally out of the woods yet, he is in MICU, now they have to figure out what has really been happening. He talks a little but tires very easily. A long road to go yet.

BROTHERS AND SISTERS IN CHRIST,

IN SO MANY WAYS IT WAS LIKE THE VISITATION OF ABRAHAM! Our Lord sent three priests to pray.

IN SO MANY WAYS IT WAS LIKE LAZARUS WAS CALLED FORTH FROM THE TOMB! As he was there four days.

DANIEL 13: (of Susanna)
35 Through her tears she looked up to heaven, for she trusted in the Lord wholeheartedly.
44 The Lord heard her prayer.

ALL OF YOU TRUSTED! In my tears I trusted, I could do nothing for my husband, I was in a hospital bed, I could not even hold his hand. People said they walked away from him in tears, not understanding, but trusting.

I had a lot of time to pray for all of you. I am still processing it all. I especially remembered those of us on here who are suffering for our spouse’s health. I hope in some small way, my suffering and my testimony as it is right now, can help.

Because remember, my testimony, is that God’s people were faithful to pray.

2 Chronicles 7:
14
and if my people, upon whom my name has been pronounced, humble themselves and pray, and seek my presence and turn from their evil ways, I will hear them from heaven and pardon their sins and revive their land.

15
Now my eyes shall be open and my ears attentive to the prayer of this place.

He was not able to sit up, much less stand up, or even turn himself over in bed, by himself. Our priest and bishop that had been here for Easter, came to annoint him and pray with him. He called me within a few hours of their leaving, to let me know he was sitting up on the side of his bed - with his feet hanging over the edge - and done so by himself. God is good!

He is on temporay dialysis while they finish getting the inflammation out of his kidneys, but do not feel it is permanate.

He said he heard the Lord say, that he would restore him 100% in everything that has been lost. I see it happening! Truly an amazing journey with the Lord.

NOW today July 27 - he has been home since April, is doing fine, he served the Divine Liturgy for the first time three weeks ago. He said each time he serves, he can tell he is stronger in his walk, balance, voice, everything. God is still heaing him and God is in the restoration business!

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

True, and I also think it is important to bear in mind that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Great point!!!

 

[Sideline]

So let me understand. Are you saying that my cousin still has cancer and by all rights, according to you, he is dead? I am just fooling myself into thinking that he was cured?
or
According to you, he slipped out unawares in the middle of the night…in a house with 30 people. He snuck out without anyone knowing he was going to the doctor. He went to the doctor once or twice, in the middle of the night so no one knew…for some odd reason he didn’t want anyone to know…and the medicine that the doctor gave him cured him.
Of course!!! It must be that he had it in his mind to lie and cheat all of these people. He wanted to hide from everyone that he was going to the doctor.

THAT IS THE MOST ABSURD THING I HAVE HEARD IN A LONG TIME!!!

Yes, that is absurd. I never said any of that.

Your unwillingness to accept spontaneous remission of cancer is truly baffling.

People with cancer often get better. Without treatment. Not as often as when they receive treatment, and that is why they recommend treatment.

The extraneous things that people do when they get better don’t do anything at all to affect how likely they are to go into remission.

Have you ever been around a person undergoing chemotherapy or radiation? They are sick.

Yes, I know people who have died of cancer. (Many were splashed with holy water.) I never said he received chemo.