challenge question, who can answer this

[Andy11]

Because catholics dogmas must be read into scripture because they can’t be read from scripture.

Can you elaborate on this a little bit?

The catholic Bible adds the books of the apocrypha which doesn’t bother me because they contain some really good reading.

Actually, luther removed those books from the bible. Also, the correct term is the deuterocanonical books.

just out of curiosity, where did you read this?

If you do a good review of church history as I’ve done simply to learn where from we came then you will find many interesting facts about the development of the church over the many centuries since it first started in Jerusalem at Pentacost. To save time and space, basically when Constantine took over Rome and declared Christianity to be accepted he ended up appointing 5 arch-bishops to oversee the 5 major Roman provinces including Rome herself. After assuming the title Pontificus Maximus the Arch-Bishop of Rome met with much scrutiny from the remaining 4 arch-bishops which resulted as we all know in the great schism. After this the church in Rome took on the title Roman Catholic. Catholic with an uppercase C. The argument for a pope can be handled in a different conversation.

 

[inchrist101]

Rinnie excellent response. And no you didn’t insult me at all. GOD Bless you for being so calm and inquisitive. It makes the ability for us to learn from one another that much better. Separating the little c from the big C is just a way of denoting the Roman Catholic church’s denomination. At the end of the day the Roman Catholic church is a denomination of the christian church.

I agree with everything you are saying with some minor exceptions. Can you show me where in the Bible it states that the church has to be governed by a successor of Peter or even Peter for that matter? Jesus never said he was building the Catholic church. That word never appears in the Bible. The word Christian does though. Jesus said he was going to build a church. The foundation of the church was the Prophets and the Apostles. The prophets because they foretold of Jesus coming and the apostles because they witnessed it and were the first members.

But not every christian church that formed back then was formed by an Apostle nor was it governed by an Apostle. Letters were generated to some by Paul and in some cases by Peter to help those that were either straying from their beliefs, or were under severe persecution. When I say straying from their beliefs I mean moving away from Jesus, or in the case of the church in Corinth they were practicing some really bad things. They were using the Lord’s supper as an excuse to get drunk. They were taking possessions from the poor yet not letting them participate in Worship. And the sexual immorality was disgusting. But no Apostle including Peter ever claimed to be the leader of the entire church. Read Peter’s letters and you will see that he identifies himself as a fellow Elder. He only offers words of encouragement and never announces himself as the head of the church of Jesus.

When you mention the creeds you have to remember that all christians believe in one church. At least this christian does. The church will prevail, any christian church as long as they stay true to Jesus.

As far as why I left the church. I went through an emotional divorce and was basically told by a priest that I couldn’t re-marry in the Catholic church unless my first marriage was annulled which would cost $2,000. Yes you are reading that correctly. Now if you read the Bible Jesus tells us that a divorce may be granted if sexual immorality is involved which in our case it was. I had every Biblical justification needed to divorce my wife.

As far as subscribing to the beliefs of the church. I don’t believe in going to a Priest for confession although if you want to you certainly can but it’s not required. I have issues with transubstantiation, Mary, and ultimately the office of the Pope. I’ve studied alot of church history, read the Bible and continue reading the Bible everyday. I can give plenty of justification for my positions and would be more than happy to share. I’m sure that others on these boards would refute them. In most cases I find that people refute them based solely on what they’re taught. They simply recite what someone told them. Others may simply come to the same conclusion that the RC does and that’s OK. The fullness of the truth is revealed through church but with scriptural backing. Read 2 Timothy 3:16-17. One has to ask what is the fullness of the truth. I believe the fullness of the truth is Jesus and his directions for how we are to live our lives is very clear in the Bible. Other teachings such as praying for Mary’s intercession and the primacy and infallibility of the Pope are not relevant for my salvation nor will they ever be.

I take great offense to anyone on these boards, Catholic and Non-Catholic, claiming that the other is going to hell. There’s a part of me that is still and always will be Roman Catholic. I was born and raised in a Catholic church and am very proud of it. I wouldn’t change it for the world. But I do feel the church may have deviated in some practices. At the end of the day I feel we’ll all be in Heaven together and GOD can clarify the questions we argue about.

 

[2ndGen]

inchrist

“Come and get it!!!”

http://images.jupiterimages.com/common/detail/21/58/23245821.jpg

I believe the Bible points directly to the catholic church. Catholic meaning universal. The word catholic lower case “c” is just a synonym for universal and was used very early in our history to describe Jesus church.

And yes way before Constantine used the term, which is contrary to what some protestants may say but they are wrong.

“X”

Mistake #1!

It wasn’t Constantine who first used the term The Catholic Church.

It was Ignatius of Antioch! As early as 110AD!

“Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church.”
Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to the Smyrneans, 8:2 (c. A.D. 110).

The catholic Bible is no different than any other Bible with respect to what is written in the Gospels, the Pauline epistles, Revelations, Peter 1 & 2 etc. etc. It’s different in the OT in that the catholic Bible uses the english translation from Latin from Hebrew. But essentially the meaning is the same.

Wrong again. First of all, you have to distinguish which of the hundreds of Protestant versions you are comparing to The Holy Bible.

And then, we can begin to show all the inconsistancies in the text.

Where the catholic Bible differs is more in the accepted books and what is considered true cannon. The catholic Bible adds the books of the apocrypha which doesn’t bother me because they contain some really good reading.

Wrong again. Jesus Christ and The Apostles quoted from The Septugain (which included all the books).

The Protestants rejected The Christian Old Testament and chose instead to use the Jewish Old Testament which wasn’t even completed while Jesus was alive (it was completed over half a century “after” Jesus’ death in 90 AD). The Septugaint (again, The Old Testament Canon that Jesus used to study and teach from) was completed 200 years “before” Jesus birth.

In short, the Protestants version of The Old Testament is that of The Pharisees (remember them? they rejected Jesus Christ and left out the 7 books that proved Jesus was The Messiah and that The Catholic Church is The Church…what a coincidence then that the Protestants would do the exact same thing).

Reminds me of my C VS P post:

P=Protestant/Pharisees
They have 66(6) books.

C=Christ/Catholics
We have 73 books

(7 the number of God, 3 The Holy Trinity…and how many books did The Protestants and The Pharisees take out? They took out the number of God books…“7”).

Although some seem to contradict the Gospels but that’s a different argument. Bibles today are usually split into translations with thought-based being on one end and word for word on the other.

Bibles today besides The Holy Bible, didn’t exist until the 16th Century and their all tailored and edited to reflect the specific beliefs of the denomination that created and published them.

Only one Bible was created for all Christians “universally”…The Bible that was Canonized by The Church That God chose to reveal His Word to…The Catholic Church.

 

[2ndGen]

You can argue that some bibles use different sets of codexes which is where some people get irritated with NIV. But NIV still footnotes those sections and verses to give the reader a sense of what other manuscripts say.

Here’s your proof…the NIV is published by the same company that publishes The Satanic Bible:

av1611.org/niv.html

How can any Christian trust a bible version published by Satan’s Publishers?

To save time and space, basically when Constantine took over Rome and declared Christianity to be accepted he ended up appointing 5 arch-bishops to oversee the 5 major Roman provinces including Rome herself.

Come on now…you’re only telling “part” of the story. If you’re a Christian, be honest…Tell the truth;

(While some will try to say that Constantine chose Christianity for convenience, that would make no sense what so ever…Christians were the minority in the empire, they were the persecuted and they were peaceloving people who turned the other cheek…they were precisely the “wrong” people to pick to win a war.)

Constantine was confronted by Jesus and told to use His Cross on his army’s shields and he would have victory (Constantine’s mother was a devout Catholic).

He did and guess what? Though his army was outnumbered almost 3 to 1, he won the battle and united the empire, stopping all persecutions against Christians.

How big is my Jesus that He would raise His flag in the center of the empire that crucified Him! The Gates of Heaven prevailed over the gates of Paganism!

Under Constantine’s protection, The Church flourished and Rome became the center from which all Christian evangelization sprang from (since all roads from the world led to Rome, it was the ideal place for God to deliver The Gospel to the world).

God is The Master Strategist!

So if you ask someone does the Bible point to the catholic church, that is the universal church of Jesus, then yes it does. But it does not point to the Roman Catholic church. Forget the argument that the Roman Catholic is the original church of Jesus because it’s not. The church was not founded in Rome. It’s a part of the catholic church just like any Christian church is.

You just mixed up 2 or 3 arguments that cannot be combined to create a belief that doesn’t exist.

First of all, The Church never existed formally “until” it was protected from persecution. Up until that point, it was a mobile ministry with no center.

That’s why they couldn’t compose The Holy Bible until Constantine was used by God to protect The Church.

Now, show us where The Church was established?

The Church was “born” in Acts, but not established.

It could’nt be…it was being persecuted by Satan as Revelation 12 tells us.

 

[rinnie]

I am so sorry about your divorce, And i agree with you a many many points. Now i am not lets say THE SHARPEST KNIFE IN THE DRAWER when it comes to scripture. I too get torn apart, Believe me. and mostly rightly so. Now i agree with you on we dont have to go to the Blessed Mother thru intercession. Its just and i always go back to this one time i was hurting real bad and my Dad said Go to the Blessed Mother she will Go with you to Jesus. She understands your suffering no one in this world understands suffering like the Blessed Mother she saw her own son crucified. Ok now thats why intercession works for me. But you are right the bible nor the church pushes but they acknowledge it. ITs just she is so compassionate and she was the chosen one by God. I like to keep her next to me. Now as far as the pope, ok You know the song and dance but the truth Jesus left the church to peter. On this rock. you know where that is in the bible im sure . Now the reason i believe he left the church to peter because he says i give you the keys to the kingdom. I will find that give me time. Thats how he was left the church. Just like if i have a shop and i say i now give you the keys to my shop its yours. you have the power now. See what i mean i handed the shop over to you. You will manage it, Now also he said you will be the LEADER of many men. Now he gave Peter the keys and they have been handed down. Now here is why i believe in the pope. When he said to Peter who am i He said you are the lord, sorry forget exact words but you know where im comming from… Now this part is important he said you only know that because my father told you so. Now see thats how we know the the Holy Spirit was descending onto peter. Things were happening, thats why he was so hard on Peter, He was the one he choose. Now Jesus breathed on them and then the Holy Spirt entered . This is how we know that God himself then talked thru them…He said i will give you the words. thats how we know that the pope is indeed human but the keys were handed down. Peter was first pope, the Pope is in fallible not as a person he is human but in scripture. Jesus said i will give you the words. Thats why his teaching are so right. God gave the power to peter he handed it down. If we dont believe that then that would be to say Jesus lied. Why would he say that. Now i am going to go up and read the scripture you gave me. I will get back to you tommorow. Its been a long day. Again i am so sorry about your divorce. I could only imagine how hard that had to have been for you. But please dont give up on your faith God can do anything and does but between me and you (its in his time not ours) me and him will have to discuss this (just kidding) God Bless talk to you tommorow. thankyou

 

[2ndGen]

inchrist

Rinnie excellent response. And no you didn’t insult me at all. GOD Bless you for being so calm and inquisitive. It makes the ability for us to learn from one another that much better. Separating the little c from the big C is just a way of denoting the Roman Catholic church’s denomination. At the end of the day the Roman Catholic church is a denomination of the christian church.

(It’s Christmas on the board today!)

Catholicism “a” denomination of Christianity?

I’m sure you must have some historical evidence or a source that you can refer to other than just “saying it’s so”?

Insert Answer Here: _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ ]

Can you show me where in the Bible it states that the church has to be governed by a successor of Peter or even Peter for that matter?

Sure…Acts 1. Matthais was chosen to succeed Judas. This was continued.

Jesus chose a successor to Himself (Peter) when He told Peter in John 21 to be shephard His flock. And because He gave Peter the authority to work in His name as the leader of The Church, whatever Peter established, was of God’s authority.

Also, because The Scritptures that the Church that God chose to reveal His Word to used to comprise The Holy Bible were completed before Peter’s martrydom in Rome, they couldn’t speak about Peter’s successor, but The Church that God chose to reveal His Word to the world could!

Jesus never said he was building the Catholic church.

Yes He did. He commissioned The Apostles to make disciples of “all” nations. Do you know what the synonym of “all” is?
Catholic.

Now, knowing that in the English language, catholic means “universal”, let’s use the English translation of the name of The Universal Church:

Main Entry: universal
Part of Speech: adjective
Definition: worldwide
Synonyms: accepted, all, all-embracing, all-inclusive, allover, astronomical, broad, catholic, celestial, common, comprehensive, cosmic, cosmopolitan, customary, diffuse, earthly, ecumenical, empyrean, entire, extensive, general, generic, global, mondaine, multinational, omnipresent, planetary, prevalent, regular, stellar, sweeping, terrestrial, total, ubiquitous, undisputed, unlimited, unrestricted, usual, whole, widespread, worldly

So, seeing that the word “universal” (or katolicos or catholic in Greek) means “all”, Jesus was telling His Apostles to make “universal” Christians or Catholic Christians.

(By the way, it’s extremely disrespectful of you to attempt to belittle the title of His Church by using a lower case letter to describe it…Just as anything that has to do with God is capitolized [The Holy Bible, The Holy Spirit, Jesus, God, The Universal Church, etc…], His Church is The Universal Church.)

That word never appears in the Bible.

Yes it does. Wherever you see the word “universal” in The Bible, you see the word “katolicos” or “catholic”.

But guess what…neither do the following words exist “in” The Holy Bible:

1. Bible
2. Trinity
3. Rapture

Yet, Christians believe in them, correct?

When you mention the creeds you have to remember that all christians believe in one church. At least this christian does. The church will prevail, any christian church as long as they stay true to Jesus.

Well, just remember, Christianity existed 2,000 years before you did. A Christian isn’t supposed to bend The Bible to their understanding, but bend their understanding to The Holy Bible.

If a Christian stays true to Christ, then they will have to follow those that Christ sent to guide us (remember, whoever rejects The Apostles, not only reject Jesus, but God).

 

[2ndGen]

As far as why I left the church. I went through an emotional divorce and was basically told by a priest that I couldn’t re-marry in the Catholic church unless my first marriage was annulled which would cost $2,000. Yes you are reading that correctly. Now if you read the Bible Jesus tells us that a divorce may be granted if sexual immorality is involved which in our case it was. I had every Biblical justification needed to divorce my wife.

Why does this “not” surprise me? Another one who blames The Church for making a wrong “personal” decision. You picked your spouse. Whatever happened after that was your responsibility.

You want to blame The Church for your personal failure and you attach a monetary value to your faith. If it had only been $200. would you be as disallusioned with The Church then?

All you had to do was to go to another Church, present your case and prove it and you would’ve gotten your divorce.

But instead, you threw the baby out with the bath water.

Believe it or not (and I’m not being insensitive, but real), you are not special. There are many Apostates who left The Church because they didn’t want to do what was required of them to get what The Church deemed correct.

How much does a lawyer charge you for a divorce these days? Will you “not” rely on them to represent you either?

As far as subscribing to the beliefs of the church. I don’t believe in going to a Priest for confession although if you want to you certainly can but it’s not required. I have issues with transubstantiation, Mary, and ultimately the office of the Pope.

That’s because you are not a “Believer”.

I’ve studied alot of church history, read the Bible and continue reading the Bible everyday. I can give plenty of justification for my positions and would be more than happy to share.

But did any of your justifications (albeit well “researced”) come from God?

I’m sure that others on these boards would refute them.

The Bible does that!

In most cases I find that people refute them based solely on what they’re taught. They simply recite what someone told them.

You know what they say about assuming, right?

I was just as anti-Catholic as I am Catholic today. Some people study and actually find “The Truth”.

Others may simply come to the same conclusion that the RC does and that’s OK.

Protestants, Atheists, Satanists, Secularlists, etc…

The fullness of the truth is revealed through church but with scriptural backing.

Yeah…The Holy Spirt. Remember to whom Jesus promised The Holy Spirit to? To the first Pope of The Catholic Church and to The Apostles that Jesus told him to lead.

By the way, in all your “studies”, did you ever come across “who” it was that created The Holy Bible that backs up The Church?

Other teachings such as praying for Mary’s intercession and the primacy and infallibility of the Pope are not relevant for my salvation nor will they ever be.

Why do Protestants always create debate issues where there are none?

Has a Catholic ever told you that Papal infalliblity or that The Saints in Heaven’s intercessions were ever required for salvation?

Where do you guys learn this?

In Anti-Catholicism 101?

There’s a part of me that is still and always will be Roman Catholic. I was born and raised in a Catholic church and am very proud of it. I wouldn’t change it for the world. But I do feel the church may have deviated in some practices. At the end of the day I feel we’ll all be in Heaven together and GOD can clarify the questions we argue about.

:bigyikes:

 

[inchrist101]

2nd gen I started typing a response until I saw your comments on my divorce and decided that it probably would become too confrontational. Your attitude is quite poor at best. You also need to re-read your posts before submitting. I never said Constantine coined the term catholic. I said contrary to many protestant believers he didn’t.

Yes I picked her but had grounds for a divorce. Why should I pay 2,000 dollars for the Catholic church to perform an annullment. The fact that they asked for any money is ridiculous. And I certainly did not leave the church because of that nor do I blame the church for it. And I certainly make sure I partake in the Lord’s Supper anytime I attend services which is usually during the occasional family death.

Answer me this. If Jesus intended Peter to be the first Pope then why does he say that there will be no Lordship? This was the objection that the churches had when the Bishop of Rome assumed the title of Pontificus Maximus. Isn’t it interesting that he chose a Pagan title that was used for Caesar. Jesus says you will not Lord it over one another like the Pagans do, exercising authority. If there’s no Lordship then there can be no Pontiff, which means there can be no Pope.

 

[inchrist101]

That’s because you are not a “Believer”.

Really?? You know what’s in my heart?

But did any of your justifications (albeit well “researced”) come from God?

Yes I prayed for him to lead us to a church. He lead us to a non-denominational church. Living my faith has never been so fulfilling.

The Bible does that!

The Bible confirms it for me.

You know what they say about assuming, right? I was just as anti-Catholic as I am Catholic today. Some people study and actually find “The Truth”.

Who said I’m anti-Catholic??

Yeah…The Holy Spirt. Remember to whom Jesus promised The Holy Spirit to? To the first Pope of The Catholic Church and to The Apostles that Jesus told him to lead.
By the way, in all your “studies”, did you ever come across “who” it was that created The Holy Bible that backs up The Church?

Created or assembled?? 2 different things. God inspired the writings. The Catholic church assembled them and preserved them through much persecution. GOD Bless them.

Why do Protestants always create debate issues where there are none? Has a Catholic ever told you that Papal infalliblity or that The Saints in Heaven’s intercessions were ever required for salvation? Where do you guys learn this? In Anti-Catholicism 101?

No on this site I have read that. I know it’s not true but Catholics on this site say that you have to submit to all the teachings of the Catholic church to obtain salvation. Talk about not knowing the Bible.

 

[2ndGen]

inchrist…Really?? You know what’s in my heart?

I don’t have to…I know your text. You said it yourself when you said that, wait, let me quote you exactly:

“As far as subscribing to the beliefs of the church. I don’t believe in going to a Priest for confession although if you want to you certainly can but it’s not required. I have issues with transubstantiation, Mary, and ultimately the office of the Pope.”

Who said I’m anti-Catholic??

Your own words condemn you. You are a Catholic Apostate who misreprents The Church.

Created or assembled?? 2 different things.

“Canonized”. No Holy Bible existed until The Catholic Church created the canon of The Holy Bible.

God inspired the writings. The Catholic church assembled them and preserved them through much persecution. GOD Bless them.

God already did bless us in The Book of Acts when He sent us The Holy Spirit.

And God not only inspired those He used to write down His Word, but He also inspired those He used to reveal the canon of The Holy Bible to us…The Catholic Church.

No on this site I have read that. I know it’s not true but Catholics on this site say that you have to submit to all the teachings of the Catholic church to obtain salvation. Talk about not knowing the Bible.

Well, I look forward to your proof that Catholics believe that we are saved through Papal infalliblity or The Saints in Heaven’s.

If it’s so prevailant, it should be easy for you to post it.

 

[2ndGen]

inchrist

2nd gen I started typing a response until I saw your comments on my divorce and decided that it probably would become too confrontational. Your attitude is quite poor at best. You also need to re-read your posts before submitting.

Well, I spoke the truth in a nuetral sense. It’s a fact that you listed your divorce as a reason for you to leave The Church.

And it’s actually a common excuse that I’ve heard over and over.

It wasn’t The Church’s fault that you needed a divorce, but your’s and your spouse’s. Your’s for making a poor decision in choosing him/her (not saying you did it knowingly, but you did do it) and his/hers for their violation of the vow made to you.

Yes I picked her but had grounds for a divorce. Why should I pay 2,000 dollars for the Catholic church to perform an annullment.

I have no idea. I never heard of one paying a Church for an annullment at least not in that amount.

What did this have to do with Church Doctrine anyway?

The fact that they asked for any money is ridiculous. And I certainly did not leave the church because of that nor do I blame the church for it. And I certainly make sure I partake in the Lord’s Supper anytime I attend services which is usually during the occasional family death.

I was confused when you brought that up. You (it seemed to me) used that to show a fault of The Church.

Answer me this. If Jesus intended Peter to be the first Pope then why does he say that there will be no Lordship?

First, let’s define what the word “pope” means…it’s Greek for “father” or father of The Church, as in spiritual father or the leader (Paul and The Apostles also referred to themselves as fathers to the disciples). So there is Biblical precedent.

Now, as to why Jesus told Peter to be the shephard to His flock (or the leader of His Church) in John 21 is easy…He wanted to leave someone in His place or the followers (like real sheep) would be devoured by the wolves.

As for His saying that there’d be no Lordship, I dont’ see how a “Lordship” has anything to do with Peter being chosen to lead The Church by Jesus.

That’s like asking “If cars need gas to run, why are tires black?”

This was the objection that the churches had when the Bishop of Rome assumed the title of Pontificus Maximus. Isn’t it interesting that he chose a Pagan title that was used for Caesar.

Paul chose “the unknown” Pagan god to preach Christ to the Greeks, so what? It was common practice in those days that when in Rome, they did as the Romans did…and evangelized to Romans in ways that they could understand.

Jesus says you will not Lord it over one another like the Pagans do, exercising authority. If there’s no Lordship then there can be no Pontiff, which means there can be no Pope.

I don’t know what Lordship means, but I assume it has something to do with Jesus in that no one would be a “divine” leader the way that the Ceasars saw themselves (as leaders AND gods).

And a Pontiff, or Pope has nothing to do with divinity…only with their positions as Head Shephards (as Jesus appointed Peter in John 21 AND in Matthew 16).

In order for you to be right, Jesus has to either be a lier or a false teacher when He gave Peter those authorities.

As a not too far gone Catholic (and I’ll take your word for it and give you the benefit of the doubt), allow me to suggest this to you;

Grab your Bible and go to this site.

Compare what you see here to your Bible.

Now, it only works if you have a “Holy Bible”; it can’t be any “version” or “translation” started after the 16th century because God hasn’t revealed to me that He chose those men to “authorize” His Word.

So you’re going to need a non-denominational Bible (aka, a “universal” Bible for all Christians, not just for the sects that denominational bibles were created to cater to).

Go here and if you want to, feel free to get back to me on anything you feel is faulty or lacking…

www.ScriptureCatholic.com

Good luck and God bless and forgive me for my rudeness.

 

[scott1228]

InChrist101:

If the church you have found is so fulfilling, why are you spending so much time on a Catholic web site?

I have another question for you, where does it say in the Bible that the Bible contains all of the teaching that the Lord left the disciples? In fact, if you read the last chapter of John’s Gospel, it suggests the contrary:

There are also many other things that Jesus did, but if these were to be described individually, I do not think the whole world would contain the books that would be written.

Here is another interesting fact. At the time of the Lord’s Ascension, there was no “Bible,” only the Jewish scriptures, and yet the Church not only existed, but thrived. It took perhaps as long as 60 to 70 years for the last remaining chapter in the Bible to be written, and it took the Church to sort through many holy writings to determine what had been inspired by God. It was the Church that made this list, the Church that took scrolls and bound them together in a book, and the Church that painstakingly copied this work letter by letter for centuries.

I too had a messy divorce, and I too had what you call scriptural grounds for divorce. I chose to seek an annulment, regardless of what the outcome, because it helped me to heal a difficult chapter in my life.

My question for you is that you begrudge the Church for it requiring you to pay a court fee, but did you refuse to get a civil divorce because the civil court charged a fee?

Also, think about this. Has there ever been another institution in the history of the world so rocked by scandal as the Catholic Church? Why in the world would anyone belong to an organization with such a history, unless they had faith that the Lord had institutionalized it? As St. Peter said, “Lord, where else would we go? You have the words of everlasting life.” The Lord entrusted those words to the Church, and we will not forsake Her.

 

[inchrist101]

This post in in 2 parts so read both fully and then respond. Thanks

I have no idea. I never heard of one paying a Church for an annullment at least not in that amount. What did this have to do with Church Doctrine anyway?

Where have you been?? The Arch Diocese contacted me and ran me through the entire process. My cousin wanted to get her marriage annulled. She has children. The Arch Diocese told her that was a special annullment and was going to cost $3,000. Just because you never heard of it doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen.

I was confused when you brought that up. You (it seemed to me) used that to show a fault of The Church.

I think it’s a major fault when you need spiritual help and the church asks for money. IMO.

First, let’s define what the word “pope” means…it’s Greek for “father” or father of The Church, as in spiritual father or the leader (Paul and The Apostles also referred to themselves as fathers to the disciples). So there is Biblical precedent. Now, as to why Jesus told Peter to be the shephard to His flock (or the leader of His Church) in John 21 is easy…He wanted to leave someone in His place or the followers (like real sheep) would be devoured by the wolves.

So Peter single handedly can prevent this?? Show me any documentation that demonstrates Peter assuming the role of Pope.

As for His saying that there’d be no Lordship, I dont’ see how a “Lordship” has anything to do with Peter being chosen to lead The Church by Jesus. That’s like asking “If cars need gas to run, why are tires black?”

That’s Lordship my friend plain and simple. I think we’ll agree to disagree on this.

Paul chose “the unknown” Pagan god to preach Christ to the Greeks, so what? It was common practice in those days that when in Rome, they did as the Romans did…and evangelized to Romans in ways that they could understand.

Not following here.

I don’t know what Lordship means, but I assume it has something to do with Jesus in that no one would be a “divine” leader the way that the Ceasars saw themselves (as leaders AND gods).
And a Pontiff, or Pope has nothing to do with divinity…only with their positions as Head Shephards (as Jesus appointed Peter in John 21 AND in Matthew 16).

Maybe you should read an unbiased book on church history. John Shelley’s is great. He’s neither pro Catholic or Protestant. He cites places where he thought both were wrong. The title of Pope was never even used until Marcellinus used it around 300AD. This is what caused the Great Schism.

 

[inchrist101]

In order for you to be right, Jesus has to either be a lier or a false teacher when He gave Peter those authorities. As a not too far gone Catholic (and I’ll take your word for it and give you the benefit of the doubt), allow me to suggest this to you;

I don’t believe Jesus to be a liar obviously. I believe Roman Catholics to be in error when interpreting this passage. What’s most nteresting to me is this. I had been away from church for a long time. Well over 10 years. Not proud of it but it’s a fact. I’ve always been open to returning to the Catholic church. My family and I prayed for guidance and we ended up at a non-denominational church. My faith has never been so strong. I actually can’t wait to go to worship services on sunday and I serve in several capacities as a Deacon within the church.

Anytime I’ve gotten into a conversation with a Catholic either on this board or in general public the response has always been rude and condescending. You must admit posting your icon was quite childish as well as your remarks regarding my marriage. You don’t know my heart and I don’t know yours but my responses have contained no rudeness, just my own humble opinion, and yours have been quite un-Christ like smilar to many others on this board. It’s interesting that whenever I pray to GOD for guidance someone like you pops up and confirms that GOD has lead us where he wants us to be. Not trying to be sarcastic but I’m always open to a good spirited discussion and willing to admit if I’m wrong. You obviously are well versed in Catholic doctrine but if you believe that anyone outside the Catholic church has no connection with Jesus and is in deep trouble then you are sadly mistaken. It seems when I try to reach out to Catholics I’m told I’m going to hell for being a Protestant. I never even considered myself a Protestant. I’m very neutral. I can see both sides many times and I think in some cases we will need to wait for GOD to clarify. But to suggest that GOD will only reveal the truth to the Catholic church is ridiculous. All Christians who decide to give their life to Christ will find the truth. Why because Jesus promised a helper to us in the HOLY SPIRIT. The HOLY SPIRIT isn’t just for the apostles and the HOLY SPIRIT doesn’t speak to just the pope on matters of faith. The HOLY SPIRIT guides all Christians to the truth.

Grab your Bible and go to this site.
Compare what you see here to your Bible.
Now, it only works if you have a “Holy Bible”; it can’t be any “version” or “translation” started after the 16th century because God hasn’t revealed to me that He chose those men to “authorize” His Word.

I didn’t know GOD had to reveal this to you. Just who are you that GOD has to answer to you?? Not being rude but wow that’s kind of arrogant wouldn’t you say.

Answer me this honestly. I’ve seen several of your posts on different threads. Sometimes you are hilarious and I think, “I wish I could have thought of that”. But many tmies I find you very rude to people and when I saw you within this thread I was just waiting for a rude response. And sure enough I got it. Do you really think that Jesus as he’s watching this conversation would pat you on the back and say yea you tell him, way to go?? To the contrary I think he would say get behind me satan. I always wonder why Catholics have so much animosity toward non-Catholics. It’s almost like Catholics are jealous that Protestants are doing just fine with Jesus in their life outside the Catholic church. Tell me your feelings honestly. I’m being very very sincere.

What pains me is Christianity is under attack everywhere in the world including the USA. Now they want to ban public radio broadcasts of Church services on Sundays. First prayer in school is thrown out now this. Then I see this in-fighting between Catholics and Protestants. The Catholic bashing out there is disgusting as is the Protestant bashing. Each side is saying the other is going to hell. Just what satan wants wouldn’t you say. My wife is a doctor and works with Muslims. They can’t believe how much Christians fight. If we are to ever have a prayer of converting anyone outside the Christian faith then we better start by uniting and figuring out ways in which the GOSPEL can be preached. Jesus is the way to GOD plain and simple. He tells us that. Nothing else matters. Certainly not some stupid disagreements on scriptural interpretations. I read that the Hebrew Bible actually changed words that were in the original Masoretic texts that pointed right to Jesus. One of them being the word for Virgin in Isaiah in the verse and the virgin will conceive. I’m sure you can tell me of others. And this is what I’m saying. You can help me to better evangelize and hopefully I can help you. Didn’t mean to divert our conversation so if I’ve bored you to death forgive me. I hope the next time you respond to me or anyone else you’ll take time and ask God to speak through you instead of just chomping at the bit to state your point as dogmatically and harshly as possible and then asking for forgiveness later. I wanted so bad to get into an argument with you earlier because that’s my stupid human weakness and pride driving me. But I walked away and prayed for GOD to guide me
to give you a response that hopefully made a point but didn’t insult you. I will never claim to be right all the time. I quote what I’ve read and been taught by some pretty good scholars. If there’s a disagreement that’s fine. We don’t have the exact answer guide Hopefully we learn from one another and add it to our arsenal when preaching the Gospel to others.

I’ll give the web site a try. I always forgive and may GOD bless you and your family as well. Sorry for such a long message. Don’t yell at me too much

 

[holdencaulfield]

Ok here it is guys. Can someone give me a straight answer. How can any religion, that goes by the bible not believe in the catholic church.

Easy, they just ignore it.

 

[inchrist101]

Scott I’m sorry for your divorce. I don’t have to be here really. My church is wonderful and I will never leave it. Why are Catholics here if they are so confident with their church?? Why not just publicly state that no Protestants are allowed and ban anyone who posts anti-Catholic sentiment. I try to focus on the discussions that are in the non-catholic section but always end up with Catholics participating. I think after this I’m actually done because the environment around here is very tense. I ask honest questions and post honest opinions about Catholic doctrine and usually get the “God love ya but you are wrong” or “For crying out loud” and always the response that contains several words that are all caps or in different colors. But the most amazing thing is the amount of times I’m told I’m going to hell for being non-Catholic. Extremely judgemental and very un-Christ like.

With respect to my divorce I did pay fee for that to be processed. But that should have been the end. Why should I then have to pay the church?? The church should accept the fact that my divorce was for good reason and support me in my time of spiritual need instead of demanding money for an annullment which is not scriptual. My grounds for a divorce were very scriptural and fit what Jesus said to a T. That should have been the end of it.

I’m familiar with what John said. But just because the bible didn’t exist with regard to its current format doesn’t mean that the early churches didn’t use scripture. In fact its believed that the Pauline letters were written before Mark’s Gospel just after the first churches started to appear. The earliest fragment of Mark’s Gospel is a piece of papryus that dates to 42ad just about 9 years after Jesus death. If the Pauline letters precede this then we have scripture circulating around to the churches just a few years after Jesus death and resurrection. Did everything Jesus do get recorded in scripture?? Of course not. Does the church have knowledge of everything he did. Of course not. May I refer you to 2 Timothy 3:16-17. Paul was an advocate of using scripture to teach. In fact his letters were so widely circulated that it’s believed soldiers would actually carry them from town to town delivering them so churches would have copies. The Internet didn’t exist. Air travel didn’t exist. The Apostles couldn’t possibly get to all the churches that formed at that time topreach to them. So they wrote down what they thought was important for us to know about Jesus and our salvation and started circulating it. Marks Gospel was believed to have been circulated to the Romans. Do you really think Paul or Peter had time to visit every church in every Roman province?? No way. So they circulated the Gospels as a means to teach people. Peter’s sermon at Pentecost couldn’t possibly have contained everything about Christ. Yet plenty of churches sprouted up after that because of the little bit they heard. I need only refer you to Acts for that.

As far as the Catholic church getting rocked by scandal. No doubt that has been difficult. Here’s my honest thought. Don’t blame the church for some individuals that screw up. Jesus warned us that this would happen. False prophets would try to lead us away from right within the church. People claiming to be men of GOD.

I’ll say this. I love good spirited discussion. It’s called edification. We should save the lost and edify the saved. I came here for spiritual strengthening because I know Catholics share my passion for Jesus. As far as some other watered down Christian denominations that exist today, GOD help us. Where did they come from? If I’ve offended anyone I apologize and ask for forgiveness. I don’t blame the church for my mistakes. Here’s an interesting tidbit for you. You talk about scandal. The Priest that married my first wife and I was someone I grew up with in Catholic school. I watched him get ordained which was extraordinary. 2 weeks after I got separated I contacted him for help to which his secretary said he would get back to me. Then I found out he was indicted for buying cocaine, and for soliciting male prostitutes. Rumor was he used to have sex in the Rectory. You talk about having your world rocked. But do I blame the church? Of course not. I forgave him for being a silly stupid man and making bad decisions; just like ME.

PEACE and GOD Bless.

 

[scott1228]

InChrist101:

One last thing about the fees. Any organization can set up its own rules if they want, and if people don’t like them, they can petition for change or leave. For myself, I think the fee is reasonable. Keep in mind that Church courts existed before there even was such a thing as the United States.

For the record, I didn’t say you were going to Hell! Only God knows where any of us are going.

Take care,

 

[Uncle_Norbert]

I’m a little jaded myself with the annulment process. 20 years ago, my sister who had been divorced for over a year wanted to remarry. The fellow she was to marry came from a family that gave big bucks to the parish and diocese. She got her annulment in six months.

I also divorced. I filed for an annulment. They only asked for $500., but at that point in time, it might as well have been $50,000. Not a wheel turned until I had the whole $500 paid in, which took me six months in itself. Then it took 2 1/2 years to get the annulment.

Like it or not, right or wrong, money talks…even in church.

 

[scott1228]

Uncle:

It seems you are jumping to conclusions.

I only made a down payment of $100 (and am still making payments)!

All that I can say is that it brought resolution to a horrible part of my life, and it was nice to have someone agree with me.

I would do it again in a heartbeat regardless of the outcome, but I am glad they found in my favor.

Back to the original thread, here is another question. When the agents of evil really want to mock Christ and his followers, how do they do it? Do they dress up as Protestant ministers? Do they raid the wafers of Protestant churches? Do they villify any of their leaders as much as the Pope is villified?

Just a thought,

 

[inchrist101]

InChrist101:

One last thing about the fees. Any organization can set up its own rules if they want, and if people don’t like them, they can petition for change or leave. For myself, I think the fee is reasonable. Keep in mind that Church courts existed before there even was such a thing as the United States.

For the record, I didn’t say you were going to Hell! Only God knows where any of us are going.

Take care,

Thanks Scott. Perhaps I wasn’t being open minded enough at the time and was just rebelling.

PEACE and GOD Bless.