Challenging Assumptions about Modesty

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blackforest said:
I don’t think I made this clear: I’m not against modesty. I actually prefer it with my own clothes.

I’m against demanding that others conform to subjective and culturally relative standards of modesty in order to accommodate one’s personal proclivity to stray sexually. That seems selfish and even narcissistic.
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It’s not a one-way-or-the-other thing, though. The ideal is that everyone try to give in to everyone else. If the question is “should I give in to them or should they accomodate me?” the answer is this: Yes
 
PetraG said:
It’s not a one-way-or-the-other thing, though. The ideal is that everyone try to give in to everyone else. If the question is “should I give in to them or should they accomodate me?” the answer is this: Yes
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The worry for some of us is the only way we could give in to others is to wear a spacesuit with a hoop skirt over it at all times. It seems pretty much any object of clothing on a woman’s body can serve as a temptation, and if we try to accommodate we end up basically having to think about ourselves as sex objects all the time.
 
DarkLight said:
The worry for some of us is the only way we could give in to others is to wear a spacesuit with a hoop skirt over it at all times.
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I think we need to keep in mind the word reasonable. If someone requires "a spacesuit with a hoop skirt over it at all times.’ that’s not reasonable and not something we have to accommodate. I think it’s pretty clear what type of clothing is made and worn with the intention of stirring up reactions from others and the type that is not. We need not worry about it if we are wearing what is reasonably modest (taking into account time, place, weather, activity etc) if whether there may me some “other” who doesn’t have a reasonable control of their sexual urges.
 
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Well I see what what you mean but I dress mostly in suits with blazers for work. I wear skirts at the knee. Common sense tells me if a man lusts after me while dressing modest I haven’t done anything wrong. I don’t think of myself as a sex object, I used to and used to flaunt the curves and those were the years I was preoccupied every moment with how I look. In the many years I’ve started dressing modestly I honestly no longer pay much attention to my body as long as I have it covered I know I’m maintaining that virtue.
 
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I don’t think it’s all about controlling his sexual urges, but could be about not giving scandal.

It’s also about due diligence on his part.
 
It could boil down to that. Immodesty could mean “Look at me, I’m a sex object .” but modesty should not mean “Don’t look at me, I’m a sex object.”

We should employ prudence when assessing modesty standards. Otherwise we go off the rails.
 
blackforest said:
In a situation calling for 'lust control," where do her responsibilities end and yours begin?

Ladies, you may weigh in, as well.
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I completely agree with you. This issue of codependent views of morality is rampant in the Church. You see it in the Pennsylvania report where the bishops were concerned about not engaging in the sin of scandal by allowing the laity to know about the sins of priests. Just sweep it under the rug so as to prevent leading people to lose their faith and thus their salvation.

The ironic thing is that they were engaging in actual scandal (leading others to sin) by enabling the priests sin through the cover up.

We need a clearer sense that we primarily are responsible for ourselves and our actions. Therefore, if I am lusting after someone, that is my fault. If they are dressing or behaving in a manner to seduce me, that is their fault. But each of us must strive to control ourselves and not so much the other. There is an aspect of consent involved. Even though consent isn’t the line between sin and not sin, it is the line of knowing what degree the participation in the sinful action is mutual.

Certainly, there is an aspect to teaching cultural standards of modesty to children and young people, but these standards do change. We cannot exclusively rely on them. And moreover, a young person who naively dresses inappropriately is in no way responsible for the sins of another. My seven year old will sometimes dress and sit in ways where her underwear is showing. I have to correct this. But if some pervert gawks at her, she is not guilty of his sin.
 
MarthaSo said:
Well I see what what you mean but I dress mostly in suits with blazers for work. I wear skirts at the knee. Common sense tells me if a man lusts after me while dressing modest I haven’t done anything wrong. I don’t think of myself as a sex object, I used to and used to flaunt the curves and I was those were the years I was preoccupied every moment with how I look. In the years I’ve started dressing modestly I honestly no longer pay much attention to my body as long as I have it covered.
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I grew up in the conservative edge where modesty was a really big deal. I definitely learned to think of myself as a sex object. I’ve also been fairly physically active outdoors, and that sadly attracts a certain sort of attention regardless of your attire. I was 11 when the crude comments started, which is just EW.
 
I was very young too when the comments started. I learned very young that men will gawk at me even when I dressed appropriate because I had a young face (as one put it). I pray my daughter who dresses modestly never thinks of herself as a sex object, thankfully we’ve had good conversations and I see her with a healthy view of herself. She knows others may view her as such but that doesn’t mean she is one. I hope that sticks. She also has been subject I’m sure to to leers from older men in a school uniform with long loose pants and sweatshirt. Ive actually seen them looking at her and started these conversations with her early. I don’t know what made me dress immodestly before but those were very lonely and sad years for me. I got so much attention, SO MUCH, with my minidresses and showing skin, it was literally like a high and I placed so much value on my looks. I didn’t want any other girl near me being prettier than me, it was like a prison. Anyway, it’s painful to remember those times that was 20 years ago and thank God I was released from that bondage. Sorry I think I digressed a bit.
 
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DarkLight said:
There is lots of erotica written about women in burkas.
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OK, the persian in me needs to say this: There´s no burka in Iran, it´s a chador. You can see the face. A burqa is a afghan version with a veiles face, usually in blue. 😉
The comic you mentioned is “Persepolis” by Marjane Satrapi, it´s great 🙂
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Obesity is an epidemic in America. Many many more people could be fit with food/exercise choices. I’m amazed at the number people who “binge“ on Netflix, but struggle with weight. #WalkingInsteadOfTV etc.
 
Shame is hard to maintain when the following appeared in the 1970s:

(Porn) Adult Bookstores selling graphic images of sex (including some gay magazines).
Strip clubs.
Topless bars.
And more recently, actors and actresses showing part or all of their bodies, engaging in simulated sex and TV programs where characters engage in sexual situations.

Where is the dignity? Where is the appropriateness in any of this? There is none.

To my fellow Christians, stay away from this. Become masters of your own body. Pray for strength and guidance.

Proverbs 6:27

New International Version
Can a man scoop fire into his lap without his clothes being burned?

New Living Translation
Can a man scoop a flame into his lap and not have his clothes catch on fire?

English Standard Version
Can a man carry fire next to his chest and his clothes not be burned?

With a renewing of your mind, both men and women can look at each other the right way, not a perverse way.
 
alice24 said:
There´s no burka in Iran, it´s a chador. You can see the face. A burqa is a afghan version with a veiles face, usually in blue.
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Noted! It was quite a good comic. I think in these discussions women’s voices often get lost. Especially middle eastern women get seen as purely passive or acting only in response to what men demand of them.
 
DarkLight said:
The worry for some of us is the only way we could give in to others is to wear a spacesuit with a hoop skirt over it at all times. It seems pretty much any object of clothing on a woman’s body can serve as a temptation, and if we try to accommodate we end up basically having to think about ourselves as sex objects all the time.
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I think we do the best we can and try to serenely depend on mercy to make up the difference. It is what we have to do when it comes to custody of our tongues and sensitivity towards what others say, after all. It is the kind of balance we have to find in how we spend our money. I think of it as another of the same kind of thing. The sisters and brothers in the monasteries respond to all of these questions in a more radical way, but that means everyone else ought to be aware of these things, not that everyone ought to (or can) live as if in a monastery.
 
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DarkLight said:
The worry for some of us is the only way we could give in to others is to wear a spacesuit with a hoop skirt over it at all times.
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Yep. This is especially true for those of us who are full-figured/curvy/whatever you want to call it.
 
That works!

I really don’t think people understand the extent to which it is neigh on impossible to sufficiently mask or minimize those “deposits”. Those women just get labeled immodest or worse.
 
The classic hourglass figure.

I do have that but I’m trying to reduce the number of hours in my glass.
 
I did try starvation at one point (after sexual assault and a lot of blame). I would really not recommend that. It’s not good for you.
 
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