CHALLENGING mary's assumption

[RobHom]

What other revelation is inspired-inerrant? Can you give me a specific example?

Your anal insistence that everything under the sun must meet your standard of inspired-inerrant is actually “irrelevant”. You have already been given examples…read them.

What were these oral traditions of the apostles that were not recorded in the scriptures?

Again, already provided…be courteous enough to read the information put forth…or desist in your ignorant exercise.

Jesus is not the catholic church. Think about what you are saying. Was the inqusition of Christ?

Say what??

Nor is all that the catholic church teaches is the truth either.

And you can actually provide proof of this…that does not include your opinions?

The problem is that the catholic church has allowed false teachers to teach its people. We know this because it contains teachings that are not grounded on the scriptures but on speculations of men and their false ideas.

I can only say that you have much in common with a scratched record. You just play over and over and over, and never produce anything but the same scratching and hissing noises. All you have done is produce your opinions.

You haven’t provided an iota of proof for your ridiculous claims. Ample proofs for Catholic beliefs and traditions have been provided to you, but you apparently suffer from a very serious case of lockjaw of the brain. So be it.

I do have to tell though, just4, I actually owe people like you a large THANK YOU!!! It is people like you that have actually caused me to become more Catholic and much stronger in my faith in the Catholic Church and its beliefs. Why? Because the more you attack me and my beliefs…when in reality, you could be and should be content to live your own life and beliefs…without even taking notice of me and my beliefs…the attacks tell me that you fear the truth, and the only way that you can attempt to assuage your anger and feelings of shame and inadequacy born or your inner feelings of wrongness…is by attacking the beliefs of people like me, and attacking the Catholic Church.

Thank you again for helping me become a better and stronger Catholic…and I’m sure that I’m not alone in this sentiment.

May you one day find the peace in Christ that you so desperately seek!!

 

[RobHom]

RobHom;2663305:

I’ve got the context and what the words mean in those contexts that supports my view. Thats how truth is. Even though many may be against the truth that doesn’t mean its not true. Sorry but thats how it works.

No, what you have apparently is “the truth according to you”. What truth could you have that would surpass the writings of Martin Luther or anyone else as far as protestants are concerned?

Me thinks you are a bit arrogant. Why do you not expose your inerrant - infallible source that guarantees your “context”, and its not the bible… because that doesn’t fly.

Stop hiding behind smoke and mirrors… Name the author of the “context”… “many may be against the truth”…thats a good one…the truth, what…according to you?? Sorry, no sale.

 

[Pixie_Dust]

Genesis 5:24; Heb 11:5; 2 Kings 2:11 - someone being assumed into Heaven is not contrary to Scripture.

Matthew 27:52-53 and the tombs were opened; and many bodies of the saints that had fallen asleep (dead) were raised;

53 and coming forth out of the tombs after his resurrection they entered into the holy city and appeared unto many.

Revelation 11:7-12 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that cometh up out of the abyss shall make war with them, and overcome them, and kill them.

8 And their dead bodies lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified.
9 And from among the peoples and tribes and tongues and nations do men look upon their dead bodies three days and a half, and suffer not their dead bodies to be laid in a tomb.
10 And they that dwell on the earth rejoice over them, and make merry; and they shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwell on the earth.
11 And after the three days and a half the breath of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them that beheld them.
12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they went up into heaven in the cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

Enoch, Elijah, the saints at His resurrection, and the 2 witnesses are assumed body and soul into heaven before the return of Christ. Why not Mary?

I don’t mind catholics being aggressive and passionate about what they believe. What’s important is for catholics to study the scriptures and compare that with catholic doctrines. I think when they do so many will be deeply troubled.

I studied the Scriptures, and I was deeply troubled when I realized how wrong I’d been as an independent fundamental Baptist. This might come as a surprise to you, but THE BIBLE MADE ME CATHOLIC.

 

[guanophore]

Where in the NT do we see this authority being “passed on to the Bishop”?

This also belongs on another thread.

2 Tim 2:2
2 and what you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also."

These persons of whom Paul speaks to Timothy are Bishops.

Acts 20:27-28
28 Take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God which he obtained with the blood of his own Son."

The care of the flock of God is entrusted to overseers (bishops) who are responsible for it’s care.

1 Peter 5:1-5
2 Tend the flock of God that is your charge, not by constraint but willingly, not for shameful gain but eagerly, 3 not as domineering over those in your charge but being examples to the flock. 4 And when the chief Shepherd is manifested you will obtain the unfading crown of glory. 5 Likewise you that are younger be subject to the elders.

Jesus is the chief shepherd of that flock, and the younger are to learn from the elder. Elders (presbyters) are to be examples.

 

[guanophore]

Where in the NT do we see this authority being “passed on to the Bishop”?

This also belongs on another thread.

2 Tim 2:2
2 and what you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also."

These persons of whom Paul speaks to Timothy are Bishops.

Acts 20:27-28
28 Take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God which he obtained with the blood of his own Son."

The care of the flock of God is entrusted to overseers (bishops) who are responsible for it’s care.

1 Peter 5:1-5
2 Tend the flock of God that is your charge, not by constraint but willingly, not for shameful gain but eagerly, 3 not as domineering over those in your charge but being examples to the flock. 4 And when the chief Shepherd is manifested you will obtain the unfading crown of glory. 5 Likewise you that are younger be subject to the elders.

Jesus is the chief shepherd of that flock, and the younger are to learn from the elder. Elders (presbyters) are to be examples.

The plain reading of the text in regards to Mary having other children is by far the preferred understanding.

It is only “preferred” by those who have been separated from the Apostolic Succession.

Question: what would be wrong if Mary did have other children with Joseph?

Nothing. God can do whatever He wants!

Would that somehow diminish Christ?

Since Jesus fully identified with humanity in all ways, why would it be a problem for Him to live in a family in which His mother was like all other mothers and wives?

No problem. God chose to do it the way He did.

What is to be gained by Mary not having sex with her husband and having other children? Does not God consider such relationships and rights of a married couple a very good thing?

God considers marriage good, and the fruit of marriage good. What is to be gained? I think I am not qualified to speak to that. I think that Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant. Dire consequences were faced for those touching the Ark who are not consecrated unto the Lord.

 

[guanophore]

Goth_Catholic;2662617:

Huh? How is it desicrating for Joseph and Mary to have sexual relations? How is it a desiscration for her to have children of her own?

There were married and had every right and privilege for this. Sex between a man and wife is a wholesome thing and is never a desicration, wrong or sinful.

It is probably hard for you to understand this because you don’t have any experience with Sacred vessels. Vessels used for Holy purposes are never reverted to profane (regular) use.

 

[guanophore]

I suppose that makes me a reformation type of Christian or protestant if you like to put tags on people. I prefer to call myself a Christian because without Christ your religion is useless. You are correct in saying there is one body of believers, with many parts all connected through the Head, which is Christ alone.
In Christ, Pat

It is amazing that you find yourself in a position to invalidate the world religions as “useless”. Even the religion into which Jesus was born, as a Jew.

James 1:27
7 Religion that is pure and undefiled before God and the Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unstained from the world. "

Where is Christ?

 

[onenow1]

Time for some common sense:

Who was the mother of the only divine person in the world ?

Why did Jesus choose Mary ?

Who was the only divine person to be taught by Mary from infancy to adulthood ?

Why did a divine person Jesus obey Mary ?

Why did Elizabeth pray to Mary and call her blessed ?

Why did Mary ponder all these things in her heart ?

Was’nt Mary blessed more then anyone else in the world with the exception of [Adam and Eve. ] in the beginning ?

If Jesus had brothers why were they not with Mary at the cross ?

Were’nt there others that were blessed and assumed into heaven ?

Jesus says blessed are they that hear the word of God and obey.

Peace, OneNow1

 

[Bible_Student]

If you think this is Mary where in the gospels is she ever referred to in this way ?

Genesis 3:
15 I will put enmity between you and the woman,] and between your seed and her seed; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel."

John !9:
26 When Jesus saw his mother, and the disciple whom he loved standing near, he said to his mother, “Woman], behold, your son!”
27 Then he said to the disciple, “Behold, your mother!” And from that hour the disciple took her to his own home.

Rev, !2
13 And when the dragon saw that he had been thrown down to the earth, he pursued the woman] who had borne the male child.
14 But the [woman] was given the two wings of the great eagle that she might fly from the serpent into the wilderness, to the place where she is to be nourished for a time, and times, and half a time.
15 The serpent poured water like a river out of his mouth after the woman, to sweep her away with the flood.
16 But the earth came to the help of the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed the river which the dragon had poured from his mouth.
17 Then the dragon was angry with the woman, and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and bear testimony to Jesus. And he stood on the sand of the sea.

In Gehesis, John, and revelation its interesting the writer uses the word woman. Interestingly John is the writer of revelation also.

Also the disciple Jesus loved most[John,] was not physically birthed by Mary. Yet Jesus said behold your Mother; and woman behold your son. Jesus adopts the human race along with his mother, we become adopted sons of God WOW !

Revelation. 12:
1 And a great portent appeared in heaven, a woman] clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars;
2 she was with child and she cried out in her pangs of birth, in anguish for delivery.
3 And another portent appeared in heaven; behold, a great red dragon, with seven heads and ten horns, and seven diadems upon his heads.
4 His tail swept down a third of the stars of heaven, and cast them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to bear a child, that he might devour her child when she brought it forth;
5 she brought forth a male child, one who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron, but her child was caught up to God and to his throne,
6 and the woman] fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, in which to be nourished for one thousand two hundred and sixty days.

Your comment on Mary sleeping in Christ. Mark 9
2 And after six days Jesus took with him Peter and James and John, and led them up a high mountain apart by themselves; and he was transfigured before them,
3 and his garments became glistening, intensely white, as no fuller on earth could bleach them.
4 And there appeared to them Eli’jah with Moses; and they were talking to Jesus.

Quote =justasking4, you are going to “test all things” how can you not be bothered by what the catholic church teaches about Mary? Its not just about what was taught before the 5th century but after that to this present day.

Quote=onenow, Pray tell what is being taught or is it what you think is being taught ?

peace, OneNow1:coffeeread:

Hi OneNow1
I am also doing a coffee read but I’m not sure you have a question for me, as it seems you are quoting justasking. I have responded in a previous post about some of the Scripture verses that some of the others believe refer to Mary (This one was a response to Mary be indicated by Rev12 - hopefully this link will shortcut you there.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=2634611#post2634611
I also responded to you on Genesis 3:15
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=2659211#post2659211

As far as John 9:26-27 we mutually agree on this.

Hope I have addressed what you were asking.

May God Bless you, pat

 

[Calvinator]

It is amazing that you find yourself in a position to invalidate the world religions as “useless”. Even the religion into which Jesus was born, as a Jew.

James 1:27
7 Religion that is pure and undefiled before God and the Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unstained from the world. "

Where is Christ?

So, by your quote of James 1:27 one doesn’t need Christ? Is this the point you are trying to make?

All one has to do is visit orphans and widows in their affliction and keep oneself unstained from the world?

What benefit will the law bring the Jews? I know it seems to be popular for theologians in your church to beleive that the Jews don’t have to have faith in Jesus but this isn’t the historical position of your church and it certainly isn’t the compatible with the gospel.

 

[Calvinator]

Time for some common sense:

Who was the mother of the only divine person in the world ?

Why did Jesus choose Mary ?

Who was the only divine person to be taught by Mary from infancy to adulthood ?

Why did a divine person Jesus obey Mary ?

Why did Elizabeth pray to Mary and call her blessed ?

Why did Mary ponder all these things in her heart ?

Was’nt Mary blessed more then anyone else in the world with the exception of [Adam and Eve. ] in the beginning ?

If Jesus had brothers why were they not with Mary at the cross ?

Were’nt there others that were blessed and assumed into heaven ?

Jesus says blessed are they that hear the word of God and obey.

Peace, OneNow1

The point about Jesus’ brothers not being present at the cross is given to much weight by some apologists. Their absence could be reasonably explained by the following:
a.) He may not have had any brothers.

b.) They may have been scared and chose not to be present, kind of like most of the apostles.

c.) They may have been non-believers and had no further wish to be associated with Jesus.

d.) They may have been there and the gospels just don’t record their presence.

Anyway, as I am sure has already been discussed on this thread, while I believe that it would be fitting for Mary to have been assumed I just don’t see any evidence in the patristic writings, at least close to the time of the apostles nor is there any scriptural reason to believe she was assumed. Of course the assumption may have occured after the last gospel was written, but we are still faced with a lack of patristic support…up until a few centuries after the apostles.

 

[Bible_Student]

Do you think that Jesus treated His mother with less respect and honor than Solomon treated his?

Did I ever infer Jesus did not love & cherish His mother? I’m not sure what you are driving at.

Indeed. Mary always points to Christ.

I believe Mary is a saint and hence also believe all saints point to Christ. Conversely those who do not point to Christ I believe are liars, that the truth is not in them, and hence are not saints.

It is our duty to give honor to those whom honor is due. All glory comes from God, but those he has justified, He also glorified. They rest in HIs glory. We recognize that He has raised them up.

I choose to direct my honor to God alone, the Creator and not to any man (the created) - however, I do recognize those who have run their race and followed Christ as my brothers and sisters. And to those who are “now” running the same race I exhort them on, even as I myself also wish to be encouraged. Even, if I were always as I desire, completely obedient to my Lord, which I openly confess I am not, I would not be worthy of honor. I say that because obedience to God’s Spirit is only made possible through Jesus’ sacrifce on the cross for you and I, which erased man’s enmity with God and restored us to friendship with God - if we believe and abide in Christ. That is why all the saints in glory will cast their crowns at the feet of Jesus. It is the love of the Father and the love of Christ that has bought us all - and transformed us by the renewing of our minds and hearts that we might follow the urgings of the Holy Spirit of God in order to complete the mission of God. Does God need us to complete His mission? No, but He chooses to bring us along side and share in His great love for man and thus be shareholders in His glory according to the work of His Spirit in us. As our brother in Christ, John the Apostle wrote:
John 95 AD:

Rev 4:11
"You are worthy, O Lord, To receive glory and honor and power; For You created all things, And by Your will they exist and were created."
Rev 5:13
And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying: **“Blessing and honor and glory and power Be to Him who sits on the throne, And to the Lamb, forever and ever!” **

And let’s not forget Saint Paul who wrote:
"St. Paul:

Romans 16:27
** to the only wise God be glory forevermore through Jesus Christ! Amen. **

Written to the Romans from Corinthus, and sent by Phebe servant of the church at Cenchrea.

In order to distinguish honor from worship.

Yes, but where in the Bible do you see any of the Apostles requiring that others bow down before them for honor sake?
St. Paul:

Gal 2:6
But from those who seemed to be something–whatever they were, it makes no difference to me; God shows personal favoritism to no man–for those who seemed to be something added nothing to me.

Indeed! We look unto those who have gone before us, and follow their example.

Yes, but I would add the qualifier, to those who are after the pattern of Christ and the fruit of the Spirit.

In Christ, pat

 

[guanophore]

The point about Jesus’ brothers not being present at the cross is given to much weight by some apologists. Their absence could be reasonably explained by the following:
a.) He may not have had any brothers.

b.) They may have been scared and chose not to be present, kind of like most of the apostles.

c.) They may have been non-believers and had no further wish to be associated with Jesus.

d.) They may have been there and the gospels just don’t record their presence.

Anyway, as I am sure has already been discussed on this thread, while I believe that it would be fitting for Mary to have been assumed I just don’t see any evidence in the patristic writings, at least close to the time of the apostles nor is there any scriptural reason to believe she was assumed. Of course the assumption may have occured after the last gospel was written, but we are still faced with a lack of patristic support…up until a few centuries after the apostles.

Just about the same amount of time we are lacking patristic support of the canon, and the hypostatic union of Christ, and the use of the word “Trinity”. Yet these beliefs were held from the Apostolic times, and are truths that have been passed down to us through the Apostolic succession. A lack of recognition of this is a lack of recognition of the role of Sacred Tradition in the life of Jesus and the Apostles, and in the early church.

2 Thess 2:15
15 So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter."

 

[Bible_Student]

It is amazing that you find yourself in a position to invalidate the world religions as “useless”. Even the religion into which Jesus was born, as a Jew.

Now there’s a sweeping accusation. Exactly how have I invalidated Judiasm and Christianity?

James 1:27
7 Religion that is pure and undefiled before God and the Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unstained from the world. "

Very good verse; this I believe too, and do.

Where is Christ?

At the right hand of the Father, and making intercession for us.
The Bible:

Mat 22:44
'The LORD said to my Lord, “Sit at My right hand, Till I make Your enemies Your footstool” '?
Mar 12:36
For David himself said by the Holy Spirit: 'The LORD said to my Lord, “Sit at My right hand, Till I make Your enemies Your footstool.” ’
Luk 20:41-43 Luk 20:41
And He said to them, "How can they say that the Christ is the Son of David?
"Now David himself said in the Book of Psalms:
'The LORD said to my Lord,
“Sit at My right hand,
Till I make Your enemies Your footstool.” ’

Act 2:32-2:35
"This Jesus God has raised up, of which we are all witnesses.
"Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear.
"For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he says himself:
'The LORD said to my Lord,
“Sit at My right hand,
Till I make Your enemies Your footstool.” ’

Act 7:49
'Heaven is My throne, And earth is My footstool. What house will you build for Me? says the LORD, Or what is the place of My rest?

Hebrews 1:13
But to which of the angels has He ever said: “Sit at My right hand, Till I make Your enemies Your footstool”?

Galatians 3:19-25
What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator.Now a mediator does not mediate for one only, but God is one.
Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law. But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

1 Timmy 2:1-7
Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men, for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time, for which I was appointed a preacher and an apostle - I am speaking the truth in Christ and not lying - a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.

In Christ, pat

 

[Calvinator]

Just about the same amount of time we are lacking patristic support of the canon, and the hypostatic union of Christ, and the use of the word “Trinity”. Yet these beliefs were held from the Apostolic times, and are truths that have been passed down to us through the Apostolic succession. A lack of recognition of this is a lack of recognition of the role of Sacred Tradition in the life of Jesus and the Apostles, and in the early church.

2 Thess 2:15
15 So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter."

The doctrine of the Trinity can be found in scripture. The fact that the word Trinity isn’t found there is irrelevant to the discussion.

It is not true that we don’t find patristic discussion of the canon until roughly the same time that we find evidence supporting the assumption. First, Peter clearly indicates that Paul’s writings are in fact scripture and Paul seems to believe that the gospels are in fact scripture. The discussion of the NT canon is contained within the texts of the NT. Further, Ignatius of Antioch and Polycarp of Smyrna discuss the gospel in the early to mid second centure.

I know that Justin Martyr discusses the OT canon so it is simply false to say that there isn’t patristic support for the cannon up until the time period that we first discover evidence that supports the assumption of Mary.

To me it is not convincing, at all, to quote 2Thess 2:15 and say “See, Paul was obviously teaching all the extra-biblical things we Catholics believe” when there is no evidence to support such a claim.

The issue that you have, and many of you continue to ignore is that you can’t show what Paul meant by “tradition” in 2Thess 2:15.

 

[Mannyfit75]

The doctrine of the Trinity can be found in scripture. The fact that the word Trinity isn’t found there is irrelevant to the discussion.

It is because Trinity is not the Bible. Oneness Penecostal use Scripture as well to disprove it though their belief is completely distorted.

It is not true that we don’t find patristic discussion of the canon until roughly the same time that we find evidence supporting the assumption. First, Peter clearly indicates that Paul’s writings are in fact scripture and Paul seems to believe that the gospels are in fact scripture. The discussion of the NT canon is contained within the texts of the NT. Further, Ignatius of Antioch and Polycarp of Smyrna discuss the gospel in the early to mid second century.

Nope, here are Patristic sources to prove you wrong.

“If the Holy Virgin had died and was buried, her falling asleep would have been surrounded with honour, death would have found her pure, and her crown would have been a virginal one…Had she been martyred according to what is written: ‘Thine own soul a sword shall pierce’, then she would shine gloriously among the martyrs, and her holy body would have been declared blessed; for by her, did light come to the world."
Epiphanius, Panarion, 78:23 (A.D. 377).

“[T]he Apostles took up her body on a bier and placed it in a tomb; and they guarded it, expecting the Lord to come. And behold, again the Lord stood by them; and the holy body having been received, He commanded that it be taken in a cloud into paradise: where now, rejoined to the soul, [Mary] rejoices with the Lord’s chosen ones…” Gregory of Tours, Eight Books of Miracles, 1:4 (inter A.D. 575-593).

“As the most glorious Mother of Christ, our Savior and God and the giver of life and immortality, has been endowed with life by him, she has received an eternal incorruptibility of the body together with him who has raised her up from the tomb and has taken her up to himself in a way known only to him.” Modestus of Jerusalem, Encomium in dormitionnem Sanctissimae Dominae nostrae Deiparae semperque Virginis Mariae (PG 86-II,3306),(ante A.D. 634).

“It was fitting …that the most holy-body of Mary, God-bearing body, receptacle of God, divinised, incorruptible, illuminated by divine grace and full glory …should be entrusted to the earth for a little while and raised up to heaven in glory, with her soul pleasing to God.” Theoteknos of Livias, Homily on the Assumption (ante A.D. 650).

“You are she who, as it is written, appears in beauty, and your virginal body is all holy, all chaste, entirely the dwelling place of God, so that it is henceforth completely exempt from dissolution into dust. Though still human, it is changed into the heavenly life of incorruptibility, truly living and glorious, undamaged and sharing in perfect life.” Germanus of Constantinople, Sermon I (PG 98,346), (ante A.D. 733).

“St. Juvenal, Bishop of Jerusalem, at the Council of Chalcedon (451), made known to the Emperor Marcian and Pulcheria, who wished to possess the body of the Mother of God, that Mary died in the presence of all the Apostles, but that her tomb, when opened upon the request of St. Thomas, was found empty; wherefrom the Apostles concluded that the body was taken up to heaven.” John of Damascene, PG (96:1) (A.D. 747-751).

“It was fitting that the she, who had kept her virginity intact in childbirth, should keep her own body free from all corruption even after death. It was fitting that she, who had carried the Creator as a child at her breast, should dwell in the divine tabernacles. It was fitting that the spouse, whom the Father had taken to himself, should live in the divine mansions. It was fitting that she, who had seen her Son upon the cross and who had thereby received into her heart the sword of sorrow which she had escaped when giving birth to him, should look upon him as he sits with the Father, It was fitting that God’s Mother should possess what belongs to her Son, and that she should be honored by every creature as the Mother and as the handmaid of God.” John of Damascene, Dormition of Mary (PG 96,741), (ante A.D. 749).

“Venerable to us, O Lord, is the festivity of this day on which the holy Mother of God suffered temporal death, but still could not be kept down by the bonds of death, who has begotten Thy Son our Lord incarnate from herself.” Gregorian Sacramentary, Veneranda (ante A.D. 795).

((continue))

 

[Mannyfit75]

I know that Justin Martyr discusses the OT canon so it is simply false to say that there isn’t patristic support for the cannon up until the time period that we first discover evidence that supports the assumption of Mary.

To me it is not convincing, at all, to quote 2Thess 2:15 and say “See, Paul was obviously teaching all the extra-biblical things we Catholics believe” when there is no evidence to support such a claim.

The issue that you have, and many of you continue to ignore is that you can’t show what Paul meant by “tradition” in 2Thess 2:15.

The Assumption is also implied in Revelation 12:1

1 And a great sign appeared in heaven: A** woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars**. And being with child, she cried travailing in birth, and was in pain to be delivered. 3 And there was seen another sign in heaven: and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads, and ten horns: and on his head seven diadems: 4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman who was ready to be delivered; that, when she should be delivered, he might devour her son. 5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with an iron rod: and her son was taken up to God, and to his throne.

The woman in this passage appeared in heaven. She has a crown on her head, and she gives birth to a male child who will rule all nations. The child is Jesus. The woman is Mary. One might ask, how did she get into heaven? She assumed.

 

[kaycee]

Nope, here are Patristic sources to prove you wrong.
((continue))

Your patristic sources about Mary are from the 6th century or later. 500 years after the supposed “facts”

**Many of the quotes by 6th century Fathers about Mary’s assumption are related directly to Gnostic writings, Transitus Beatae Mariae (pseudo Melito), the Dormition (pseudo-John). **

These are Gnostic forgeries written to decieve. The Transitus was condemned by 2 Popes!

Gnostic writings, NOT Christian tradition is the source of the assumption of Mary.

 

[LilyM]

Your sources are from the 6th century or later. 600 years after the supposed “facts”

**Many of the quotes are related directly to Gnostic writings, Transitus Beatae Mariae (pseudo Melito), the Dormition (pseudo-John). **

These are Gnostic forgeries written to decieve. The Transitus was condemned by 2 Popes!

Gnostic writings, NOT Christian tradition is the source of the assumption of Mary.

377 is the date of the first source. Which is earlier than the canon of the Bible (which you’re more than happy to accept) in any event.

By the way, a small lesson in scripture history for the benefit of the poster claiming pre-approval of the canon. You ignore the fact that Acts, Revelation and the non-Pauline Epistles AREN’T anywhere endorsed explicitly as scripture - in other words about a third of the NT.

You also ignore that other writings - the Didache, the Shepherd of Hermas and Clements Letters off the top of my head - were read in liturgy at this time right alongside the Gospels and Paul’s letters. In other words they too were considered to be scripture.

Back to our regularly scheduled programming …

Written to decieve? You claiming to be able to read the mind of those writers now? Which two Popes condemned it? When and where? Quotes and sources please.

 

[Bible_Student]

Time for some common sense:

Who was the mother of the only divine person in the world ?

Hi Brother, many questions to answer so this might take two posts. I believe Mary was VERY blessed indeed to physically carry and deliver our Lord. The Church has also been VERY spiritually blessed to bring about the spiritual rebirth, and indwelling of Christ, to the entire planet. And the blessed Gospel of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, will be preached to every nation before He comes again in Glory.

Why did Jesus choose Mary ?

Luke Chapter 1 gives the answer.
Christ’s Birth Announced to Mary Luke 1:26-33
Now in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent by God to a city of Galilee named Nazareth, to a virgin betrothed to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David. The virgin’s name was Mary. And having come in, the angel said to her, “Rejoice, highly favored one, the Lord is with you; blessed are you among women!”
But when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and considered what manner of greeting this was. Then the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bring forth a Son, and shall call His name Jesus. He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Highest; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David. And He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of His kingdom there will be no end.”

Who was the only divine person to be taught by Mary from infancy to adulthood ?

Hi Onenow, is this a question?

Why did a divine person Jesus obey Mary ?

Well we know that Jesus was without sin and always kept the Law, including honor thy Father and thy mother, as He was Divine. But that might miss the point that He loved her as His mother.

Why did Elizabeth pray to Mary and call her blessed ?

She did not pray to Mary but, because she was filled with the Holy Spirit, was speaking prohetically:
Luke Chapter 1:39-45:

Mary Visits Elizabeth
Now Mary arose in those days and went into the hill country with haste, to a city of Judah, and entered the house of Zacharias and greeted Elizabeth. And it happened, when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, that the babe leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. Then she spoke out with a loud voice and said, “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb! But why is this granted to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? For indeed, as soon as the voice of your greeting sounded in my ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy. Blessed is she who believed, for there will be a fulfillment of those things which were told her from the Lord.”

I assume you are probably already aware, however, that there are other instances of others being called blessed as well Onenow…
"Matthew 16:17:

And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven.

… As well as Jesus’ statement
True Blessedness in the Gospel of Luke 11:27-28:

As He (Jesus) said these things, a woman in the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, “Blessed is the womb that bore you, and the breasts at which you nursed!” But he said, “Blessed rather are those who hear the Word of God and keep it!”

I do not believe Jesus was inferring that Mary did not hear the Word of God but believe the point Jesus was making is that the great blessing comes to “all” who hear the Word of God and keep it". I think you have echoed the same thing brother.

Why did Mary ponder all these things in her heart ?

I can only surmise that her life had been wonderfully, fearfully, and blessedly touched by the Word of God - I cannot imagine her not thinking back in amazement of what God had done with her life and treasuring those moments. My own life has been touched by God in ways that many would think insignificant and yet I cannot but help but treasure that moment that the light went on for me and I realized the love of God and the wonderful blessing of following Christ. How much more so for Mary whom God chose as mother of His Son. God’s kindness and grace towards us is a completely overwhelming thing to experience.

Was’nt Mary blessed more then anyone else in the world with the exception of [Adam and Eve. ] in the beginning ?

God didn’t tell us but in heaven we will know the answer to that question.

In Christ, pat
PS: Answers continued on next post.