C
Calvinator
Guest
Okay, that is a decent answer.It clarifies His Divine intention to share His heavenly dwelling with us, body, soul and spirit. His assumption of Mary demonstrates what he plans for all of us!
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C
Calvinator
Guest
I like Guanaphores answer better…at least it’s shorter
.Yeah…I guess if I were forced to pick one over the other, I guess I would put the trinity above the hypostatic union.
B
Benadam
Guest
Is it biblical to believe that error could creep into the Church Jesus established in Truth? Is it biblical to believe that Truth no longer has a human witness on earth? Is it biblical to believe that Truth has been corrupted where Jesus established it?
These unbiblical beliefs underly most of the arguments here against the Catholic Church’s declaration that Mary the Mother of Jesus was assumed body and soul into Heaven.
The Sacred Scriptures reveal the conditions that make it probable that Mary was assumed into heaven.
OT saints who were called to the ressurection and were seen in Jerusalem at the time of the ressurection. It is probable that a person who’s soul is revealed by the Holy Spirit as something that magnifies the Lord on earth and also the person who manifested Our Lord in the flesh would be one of these.
The Church established in Truth by Jesus Himself declares it as true.
These unbiblical beliefs underly most of the arguments here against the Catholic Church’s declaration that Mary the Mother of Jesus was assumed body and soul into Heaven.
The Sacred Scriptures reveal the conditions that make it probable that Mary was assumed into heaven.
OT saints who were called to the ressurection and were seen in Jerusalem at the time of the ressurection. It is probable that a person who’s soul is revealed by the Holy Spirit as something that magnifies the Lord on earth and also the person who manifested Our Lord in the flesh would be one of these.
The Church established in Truth by Jesus Himself declares it as true.
B
Bishopite
Guest
I’m glad you like Guanaphores answer better; she is much brighter than I anyway.I like Guanaphores answer better…at least it’s shorter
Yeah…I guess if I were forced to pick one over the other, I guess I would put the trinity above the hypostatic union.
I want to add that you are much easier to speak to than many non-Catholics on this forum, you generally don’t take things personal (I have been known to at times). If you dissagree, which you have every right to do, at least you do so with grace and honesty.
C
Calvinator
Guest
Thank you for the compliment but I’m afraid that isn’t always the case.I’m glad you like Guanaphores answer better; she is much brighter than I anyway.
I want to add that you are much easier to speak to than many non-Catholics on this forum, you generally don’t take things personal (I have been known to at times). If you dissagree, which you have every right to do, at least you do so with grace and honesty.
M
Mimi
Guest
The Church teaches so. Therefore the teaching must be true because it is written in 1Tim 3:15 that the Church is the pillar and mainstay of the truth.
I was just thinking the same thing, but didn’t get to post it. Thanks for adding the scripture quote.
Peace,
Mimi
Pray the Rosary!
theworkofgod.org/Devotns/Rosary/promises.htm
B
Bible_Student
Guest
Hi OneNow,
You might find this a little surprising but I agree with you (to a point) and I’ll tell you why. As I’ve studied the Scriptures, and I’ll be merely a student till the Lord calls me home, I have seen the pattern of how God chooses to reveal His Will. I am always quite amazed at His Methods and how He ties so much together. I look at the OT testament, the promise to Abraham, Moses leading the children of Israel out of Egypt, the Ark of the Covenant, the Temple, and the Prophets as all pointing to Christ - the centerpiece of history. Yet each of these events and acts were historical events in their own right, whereby God magnified Himself through His people. When I say magnified I mean gave us an exploded view of who He is, His glory, His goodness and mercy toward us. His people were shareholders in His kindness when they trusted Him. God was the glory of Israel but the prophets, as well as some of her kings, always understood that God alone was the origin and source of their glory. So what I’ve seen God do throughout history is give promises, enact them into patterns in the physical realm, (in some cases for our edification and in some case to construct the heavenly Jerusalem (the temple) on earth, Christ as the very cornerstone (and head of the Church, which started with Israel and by His Will has expanded to include us all - we have been grafted into the tree as St, Paul says, and this continues until the time of the Gentiles has been fulfilled.
As Mannyfit alludes to in his posts there are unmistakable co incidentals to the life of Mary and our Savior Lord. Jesus, died for our sins and by faith in Him, the very Son of God, we are saved from wrath of God, which is coming upon the whole world. So to me, Mary does represent a kind of prototype of the Church, While I believe expounding Revelation 12 clearly leads us to the conclusion that this is definitely Christ’s Church that John speaks of, it would also seem quite apparent to me that Mary herself, is both a “physical” and “historical” symbol of the very motherhood of the Church. I say this since it is part of my confession that she delivered Christ whom is the Head of “the Church”. I also say it because of the manner, in which she brought forth Christ, also typifies the Church; she herself being a virgin mother who was completely obedient to God’s will; who endured the disdain of the high browed Pharisees who thought evil of her pregnancy; and who saw the promise of God fulfilled through her. But that is where the allusion to Mary in Rev 12 stops for me. Total sanctification by the grace of God has been imputed to the “bethroed” - “the Church” - but this has not happened yet. That has been reserved for the wedding feast of the Lamb of God when the Church is sealed. I would also say that there is no historical precedent of the rest of Rev12 either, as the allegorical very much takes on a futuristic rendering.
Rev 12:13-17 The Woman Persecuted:
(Cont’d in my following post)
B
Bible_Student
Guest
To my brother in Christ OneNow, (cont’d from last post)
So you see, I do have great love for the example of Mary and her obedience. However I also believe Mary herself, if she could presently speak, would direct all glory to the Father and to Christ, His Son, and not herself. This is my concern - that some would take away from the Lord of Glory, Jesus Christ and render it to the glory of Mary, when clearly Mary’s glory alone comes from the Father of lights and the Word of God, who is the only begotten Son of the living God. The point here is the Church itself should reflect Christ. The Father Himself has ordained that His Son should carry out His Will of Salvation by the mighty Gospel of “good news” all the day long until the end of the age. This is primary! Is the Church that Jesus established the unspotted version of Rev 12? Does it bring forth and mirror the true reflection of Christ to the world? If the answer is no - then shame on us - we need to all turn to the Living God and bewail our sins in repentance.
2 Chronicles 7:14-16:
Place yourself mentally in a battle with a kill zone and crossfire immediately to your rear, which you have just come through. Suddenly your friend next to you yells out that one of your brothers is down with a leg wound 100 yards back. Survival tells you that the enemy is just waiting for one of your number to go out there rescue him for an opportunity for more kills. Your flesh tells to that to fly out there to get him is almost a sheer suicide mission but the love in your heart tells you to spare no expense, for he is one of us, and at all costs you must get him back. Suddenly you see the Platoon Sergeant himself dart out there under hellish fire as he drags his brother into cover & safety. Everyone is jubilant until they find out that their beloved Platoon Sergeant was also hit and is bleeding out badly - and the medic is unable to stop it. The man he rescued survives but he himself dies.
**Questions: **
So you see, I do have great love for the example of Mary and her obedience. However I also believe Mary herself, if she could presently speak, would direct all glory to the Father and to Christ, His Son, and not herself. This is my concern - that some would take away from the Lord of Glory, Jesus Christ and render it to the glory of Mary, when clearly Mary’s glory alone comes from the Father of lights and the Word of God, who is the only begotten Son of the living God. The point here is the Church itself should reflect Christ. The Father Himself has ordained that His Son should carry out His Will of Salvation by the mighty Gospel of “good news” all the day long until the end of the age. This is primary! Is the Church that Jesus established the unspotted version of Rev 12? Does it bring forth and mirror the true reflection of Christ to the world? If the answer is no - then shame on us - we need to all turn to the Living God and bewail our sins in repentance.
2 Chronicles 7:14-16:
We must all ask ourselves: Who saves us from the wrath to come? Why? How? What is the natural response to the costly price of salvation? I often tell my teenage Sunday school students this story to put it into perspective.
Place yourself mentally in a battle with a kill zone and crossfire immediately to your rear, which you have just come through. Suddenly your friend next to you yells out that one of your brothers is down with a leg wound 100 yards back. Survival tells you that the enemy is just waiting for one of your number to go out there rescue him for an opportunity for more kills. Your flesh tells to that to fly out there to get him is almost a sheer suicide mission but the love in your heart tells you to spare no expense, for he is one of us, and at all costs you must get him back. Suddenly you see the Platoon Sergeant himself dart out there under hellish fire as he drags his brother into cover & safety. Everyone is jubilant until they find out that their beloved Platoon Sergeant was also hit and is bleeding out badly - and the medic is unable to stop it. The man he rescued survives but he himself dies.
**Questions: **
- Who did the assistant platoon leader die for?
- Why did he do this?
- How did he show who he was?
- What are the responses to his act of bravery?Answers:
- It depends on who you ask. If you ask the LA times they will tell you he died in vain for a lost cause. If you ask the brothers they will tell you he risked all for the brothers. died because he loved the brothers.
- Depends on who you ask. Some people might think he was a sap to give up his young life, some might think he had a hero complex. But I say ask the ones who were there that day and they will tell you what motivated this man was his love for the brothers. And if I kneel before the altar of Christ, the Way, the Truth, and the Life, I clearly find that He Himself states that love supersedes all and our actions are ALWAYS to be motivated by love - the same love that He freely gave in order to save us. This is the new commandment to every Christian.
- Perspective and attitude again but He not only showed His friends who he was but also his enemies, who reviled him and cut him down.
- They range from just something negative to post on the evening news, to those who shake their head and say ‘what a waste’, to those back home who revere his sacrifice and weep at the loss of a true brother, to those numbered in his immediate family who will mourn their great loss and who will ever be missing a piece of the heart, and lastly to the brothers with him that day and especially to the one he saved who will never, ever forget that man to his dying day. The cost of love is overwhelming great but it wouldn’t be love if it were not.(cont’d in next post)
G
Good_Fella
Guest
Do you believe that the Holy Spirit is God, the third divine Person of the Holy Trinity?
If you do, it’s because the Catholic Church has taught this as dogma. The Bible
does not ever mention “explicitly” that the Holy Spirit is God.
The Bible alone is not sufficient.
Pax vobiscum
Good Fella
B
Bible_Student
Guest
To my Brother in Christ (OneNow),
In conclusion this is why I believe the wrath of God abides upon those who reject His Son, who poured Himself out like a drink offering for all of us. My focus on Jesus is therefore like those who numbered among the Israelites that day in the desert when Moses held up the effigy that symbolizes the cross of Christ. (**
John 3:14-15:
Therefore the people came to Moses, and said, “We have sinned, for we have spoken against the Lord and against you; pray to the Lord that He take away the serpents from us.” So Moses prayed for the people.
Then the Lord said to Moses, “Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a pole; and it shall be that everyone who is bitten, when he looks at it, shall live.” So Moses made a bronze serpent, and put it on a pole; and so it was, if a serpent had bitten anyone, when he looked at the bronze serpent, he lived
Vipers all around me, sin’s sting to poison and kill me, its deadly venom coursing through these veins and into my brain, yet with all my failing consciousness, my eyes are totally fixed, for all I’m worth and all that God has purposed in me, on the cross of Christ where my Jesus, the Son of God, Pure and Holy, substitutionally took upon Himself my sin, and my death required for sin, doing what I was incapable of doing myself, which is crucifying my sin nature. He took my place and bore it all for me and He did it for love, fulfilling the Father’s love for a fallen man. The miracle is I am delivered and yet live. When I think of my salvation, and its terrible price, I can think of no other than my Lord Jesus, to Him be all glory as I sojourn here to the end of my days! We are all, everyone of us, fallen men that need to direct and fix our eyes soley on Jesus.
Galatians 2:20:
**
In conclusion this is why I believe the wrath of God abides upon those who reject His Son, who poured Himself out like a drink offering for all of us. My focus on Jesus is therefore like those who numbered among the Israelites that day in the desert when Moses held up the effigy that symbolizes the cross of Christ. (**
John 3:14-15:
Numbers 21:4-9:
Then they journeyed from Mount Hor by the Way of the Red Sea, to go around the land of Edom; and the soul of the people became very discouraged on the way. And the people spoke against God and against Moses: “Why have you brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness? For there is no food and no water, and our soul loathes this worthless bread.” So the Lord sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and many of the people of Israel died.
Therefore the people came to Moses, and said, “We have sinned, for we have spoken against the Lord and against you; pray to the Lord that He take away the serpents from us.” So Moses prayed for the people.
Then the Lord said to Moses, “Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a pole; and it shall be that everyone who is bitten, when he looks at it, shall live.” So Moses made a bronze serpent, and put it on a pole; and so it was, if a serpent had bitten anyone, when he looked at the bronze serpent, he lived
Vipers all around me, sin’s sting to poison and kill me, its deadly venom coursing through these veins and into my brain, yet with all my failing consciousness, my eyes are totally fixed, for all I’m worth and all that God has purposed in me, on the cross of Christ where my Jesus, the Son of God, Pure and Holy, substitutionally took upon Himself my sin, and my death required for sin, doing what I was incapable of doing myself, which is crucifying my sin nature. He took my place and bore it all for me and He did it for love, fulfilling the Father’s love for a fallen man. The miracle is I am delivered and yet live. When I think of my salvation, and its terrible price, I can think of no other than my Lord Jesus, to Him be all glory as I sojourn here to the end of my days! We are all, everyone of us, fallen men that need to direct and fix our eyes soley on Jesus.
Galatians 2:20:
May God Bless, pat
**
B
Bishopite
Guest
Perhaps part of the problem you are having with Mary is your view of imputed righteousness. There is great ontological problem with imputation as it only gives us the affectations of erradicating sin without actually taking them away. Imputation is the more scriptural view and historical view, so if you understand correctly how God justifies us that we are “partakers of His divine nature” (2 Peter 1:4) you will understand how He made Mary “full of grace” and in understanding her immaculate conception as infusion, you will better understand her assumption into heaven.
K
kaycee
Guest
The "church " also taught Arianism for a time.The Church teaches so. Therefore the teaching must be true because it is written in 1Tim 3:15 that the Church is the pillar and mainstay of the truth.
A
agangbern
Guest
What? Where is your proof? Just remember that there is a difference between the Church as a whole and a certain individual priest or whatever.The "church " also taught Arianism for a time.
K
kaycee
Guest
Clearly the Trinity is seen in many places overtly in Scripture and is clearly taught!Do you believe that the Holy Spirit is God, the third divine Person of the Holy Trinity?
If you do, it’s because the Catholic Church has taught this as dogma. The Bible
does not ever mention “explicitly” that the Holy Spirit is God.
The Bible alone is not sufficient.
Pax vobiscum
Good Fella
The assumption has Zero biblical support and is a “doctrine” introduced by Gnostic writings.
T
Tantum_ergo
Guest
No, “The Church” did not teach Arianism for a time. Find me one ‘official’ statement from “The Church” that posits an “Arian” teaching as binding upon all Christians as dogma.
Having bishop X, or even a lot of bishops, or even a Pope personally saying that he, or they, follow Arian teaching, is a far cry from having the Church, as part of the Pope teaching specifically on faith and morals, or put into the ‘ordinary’ Magesterium, ‘put’ Arian teaching into official dogma/doctrine.
I know you know this. I know you are just waiting for someone to rebut so that you can either ignore the rebuttal and go on to the next slur, or try to argue that "it doesn’t matter, the church probably covered up the documents, or it PROVES there’s no such thing as infallibility, etc.’
But no matter how often you bring up the tired old chestnuts and canards, you can’t make your ‘false allegations’ true.
Having bishop X, or even a lot of bishops, or even a Pope personally saying that he, or they, follow Arian teaching, is a far cry from having the Church, as part of the Pope teaching specifically on faith and morals, or put into the ‘ordinary’ Magesterium, ‘put’ Arian teaching into official dogma/doctrine.
I know you know this. I know you are just waiting for someone to rebut so that you can either ignore the rebuttal and go on to the next slur, or try to argue that "it doesn’t matter, the church probably covered up the documents, or it PROVES there’s no such thing as infallibility, etc.’
But no matter how often you bring up the tired old chestnuts and canards, you can’t make your ‘false allegations’ true.
G
Good_Fella
Guest
Arius, a priest in Alexandria, began teaching his Trinitarian heresy around 310 A.D. and was probably one of the Church’s biggest sources of a migraine. At one point almost two-thirds of the bishops embraced Arianism, although the pope held firm against it. Arianism was condemned by the Council of Nicea in 325 A.D. which drew up the Nicene Creed as an expression of an orthodox Trinitarian faith. The Catholic Church did not teach Arianism. Arius did.The "church " also taught Arianism for a time.
Pax vobiscum
Good Fella
A
andzy
Guest
Mary’s assumption has just as many scriptural references (direct and indirect) as the Holy Trinity (give or take).
Try not to fall in the trap of selective reading, and please stop repeatedly throwing around false accusations. Instead, don’t forget that Scripture Alone, which you seem to be so attached to, is an non-scriptural teaching of men.
B
Bible_Student
Guest
Actually not, exegetically taken from the Logos, I believe God has removed my sin, as far as the east is from the west.
Psalms 103:11-13:
My problem with the assumption is there is neither Scriptural support for it, nor is there any documentary evidence from the earliest witnesses, the first 4 or 5 generations from the apostles, who could have and would have documented it. I mention this in my earlier posts.
In Christ, pat
K
kaycee
Guest
You need to read up on Athanasius and Arianism.
P
Pixie_Dust
Guest
Not so clearly to some - there are people who say they’re Christians yet deny the Trinity.
A person being assumed into Heaven is found in Scripture in several places. If God did so for Moses, Enoch and Elijah, why not Mary?
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