Change of heart on socialized medicine

[aspawloski4th]

And what are you doing to help your fellow man?

I have been a right to life memeber since the age of 11! My first right to life act at that age was embarassing a Planned Parenthood spokesman on national radio with a question on a talk show he could not answer… Before a technicality ruined things I used to put the tv show Fatima The Moment has Come on public access tv. Most years Iv’e been involved in Life Chain. I take a 30 something disabled young lady to Mass on Sunday. If needed when I’m out swimming Im trained and certified in the type of swimming to save a drowning person… If that oportunity ever comes about, I’m an extremely powerfull swimmer and can move far more than my own weight. If I ever come into money someday. I have plans to help my special ed grammar school I went to for 9 years. These children are misunderstood and I know very well what it is like to be misunderstood. So yess I do things to help out! if a tornado comes your way someday it might be my spotting to gets the warning issues so you are warned about it. I’m a certified severe weather spotter. Most of the hicks that live around me think thats a waste of time. So yes I help my fellow human, but Id rather be dead than do it any other way than my own that I can take ownership of.

 

[aspawloski4th]

Did you ever consider that the financial thresholds were put in place because there was so much abuse?

Totally 100% irrelevent. Everything is abused one time or another. Excuses excuses.

 

[aspawloski4th]

Really?? References??

I’ve peen poor, homless, sick, and have even had times when I resounded my self to the fact I was going to die. but never considered myself no better than an animal. Self esteem issues such as this can not be blamed on factors from the outside.

Ok where did you get your phd in psychology from?

 

[Ella]

Weren’t freddie Mac and Fannie mae government sponsored entities? Didn’t the government over regulate the market to prevent mortgage companies from discriminating against those who could not pay? Isn’t the governmtn now encouraging banks to make risky loans with the increased likely hood that the governmetn will provide billions in bail outs to banks that fail?.

The risky bond swaps that took place with mortgages are what tanked the economy, and they happened because of deregulation. Not enough government intervention is as bad as too much. Re: food safety as an example.

My 401 K is at a record high (partly becasue I kept putting money in) but still I have had many dollars taken out of my paycheck to provide for a “rainy day” and we should give people uninhibited access to that money. .

Congratulations. My 401k has lost half its value and I’ve never stopped putting money in. I don’t need the money now so it’s not a big deal.

If they can not get health insurance then they are not making a living. Considering how many people are not the primary bread winner in the family, spouses, teenage children, retirees, there are a lot of people who can afford to work at lesser wages.

And yet some people still must work at lesser wages as well, no matter how many retirees and teenagers you muster to fill lower paying jobs. And they do not have health insurance. And that is the way it is. Yet in every other 1st world country that is not the way it is. We can do better than we are doing.

Having more working citizens would bennefit us all as well. Do you not see that getting all of these people productive jobs would help everyone?

Do you not see that having healthy citizens would mean more citizens that could work?

There are ways of driving down health care costs with out raising taxes but no one seems to want to talk about them.

Funny thing is other countries spend less money than us, and get universal coverage. We’re the ones spending the most money, for less coverage, right now!

Royal Archer, the truly poor in the U.S. have Medicaid. Do you think we should not have Medicaid anymore?

And yet, the health coverage in countries like Switzerland addresses a different need - the folks like me who, if I were to lose my job, because of mundane pre-existing conditions (high blood pressure that is managed) would not be able to afford the high premiums of health insurance even if I were allowed to buy it. If I were turned down for coverage, what would you suggest I do? Wait for a heart attack to go to the ER? What if I get cancer while between jobs? I have a high rate of it in my family history. How would I make my mortgage and pay for these things? Most people in those straights lose everything. The hole in health coverage in the U.S. that I am describing is real and it affects people that have been working hard all of their lives. And it does not happen in any other first world country.

 

[royal_archer]

I have been a right to life memeber since the age of 11! My first right to life act at that age was embarassing a Planned Parenthood spokesman on national radio with a question on a talk show he could not answer… Before a technicality ruined things I used to put the tv show Fatima The Moment has Come on public access tv. Most years Iv’e been involved in Life Chain. I take a 30 something disabled young lady to Mass on Sunday. If needed when I’m out swimming Im trained and certified in the type of swimming to save a drowning person… If that oportunity ever comes about, I’m an extremely powerfull swimmer and can move far more than my own weight. If I ever come into money someday. I have plans to help my special ed grammar school I went to for 9 years. These children are misunderstood and I know very well what it is like to be misunderstood. So yess I do things to help out! if a tornado comes your way someday it might be my spotting to gets the warning issues so you are warned about it. I’m a certified severe weather spotter. Most of the hicks that live around me think thats a waste of time. .

Asside from giving someone a ride to mass you only speak of things you could do or use to do.

ISo yes I help my fellow human, but Id rather be dead than do it any other way than my own that I can take ownership of.

So why don’t you respect when others want to control the method of their contributions?

 

[royal_archer]

Ok where did you get your phd in psychology from?

Why do you ask? Is that what other psychologists are saying?

 

[royal_archer]

The risky bond swaps that took place with mortgages are what tanked the economy, and they happened because of deregulation. Not enough government intervention is as bad as too much. Re: food safety as an example.

Some oversight such as food safety is appropriate as long as it does not get out of hand (mandating olestra- for french fries)

Congratulations. My 401k has lost half its value and I’ve never stopped putting money in. I don’t need the money now so it’s not a big deal.

That means that you are buying additional shares at a bargain then.
What is the net present value of your investment in Social Security? bet you can’t get a penny out of that investment right now (unless you are a certain age)

And yet some people still must work at lesser wages as well, no matter how many retirees and teenagers you muster to fill lower paying jobs. And they do not have health insurance. And that is the way it is. Yet in every other 1st world country that is not the way it is. We can do better than we are doing.

Have you considered where all of the decent labor jobs have gone? Maybe if the AMerican tax payer had not been saddled with such debt out of WWII and the reconstruction we could have kept more of those jobs here. Instead we pay to rebuild countries that attack us and give them an unfair edge. While we are doing this, third party countries who do not have the big defense budgets and rely on our protection are also taking our jobs.

Do you not see that having healthy citizens would mean more citizens that could work?

a third of Americans are on public assistance, Do you really think all of them are too sick to work?

Funny thing is other countries spend less money than us, and get universal coverage. We’re the ones spending the most money, for less coverage, right now!

But still everyone wants to stay here. And foriegners keep wanting to come here.

Royal Archer, the truly poor in the U.S. have Medicaid. Do you think we should not have Medicaid anymore?

I think we need to evaluate why each of those people are dependent on the governement. Those who can work but refuse to should be cut off.

And yet, the health coverage in countries like Switzerland addresses a different need - the folks like me who, if I were to lose my job, because of mundane pre-existing conditions (high blood pressure that is managed) would not be able to afford the high premiums of health insurance even if I were allowed to buy it. If I were turned down for coverage, what would you suggest I do? Wait for a heart attack to go to the ER? What if I get cancer while between jobs? I have a high rate of it in my family history. How would I make my mortgage and pay for these things? Most people in those straights lose everything. The hole in health coverage in the U.S. that I am describing is real and it affects people that have been working hard all of their lives. And it does not happen in any other first world country.

I have no problem with forcing companies to continue coverage if someone gets laid off and wants to keep the coverage. I also don’t have a problem with big organizations such as AARP, the Church, Etc forming big insurance pools, as long as it is not compulsory on people who do not wish to participate.

 

[aspawloski4th]

Why do you ask? Is that what other psychologists are saying?

You are talking like you know tons about physchology! So I have to wonder.

 

[aspawloski4th]

Asside from giving someone a ride to mass you only speak of things you could do or use to do.

So why don’t you respect when others want to control the method of their contributions?

Well until recently I worked 60 to 80 hours a week at physical work to support a disabled and unhealthy wife. That is very extremely tiring. It has caused my blood pressure to go through the roof as well as frequent migraines. I have a well pronounced inability to handle excitement, which is a common trait in my family. I’m no unemployed and spedning much time jobsearching as well as trying to save my home and still take care of my wife’s deteriorating health. That kind of multitasking is overwealming to me. My need for sleep in order to function have gone up by more than a half this year. as far as the health care question. I see it as a mere paper money shuffle, with lots of printed money… Whether or not health care go through or not your taxes are going to be whatever they are going to be for the most part. That isnt charity, thats just paying your tax to society for society taking care of you, ie roads, schools, etc. All the health insurance comapnies are unethical, dishonest worhtless louses. All this hair splitting over what is covered and not is b.s. I had to threaten a lawyer one to get Blue Cross Blue Shield to cover what they promised to. Tjhe mob is a more honest business than health insurance is thesedays. They are no more moral than the thug that steals an 85 yearold lady’s purse.While I’m not looking to governemnt healcare for mericles its worth a try and cant be any worse than whats going on now.

 

[cynic]

This mostly a recent American phenomenon. It has to do with Calvinist ideals entering politics.

It seems more like a kind of “natural justice” argument, loosely related to survival of the fittest. Those who cannot afford the service don’t deserve the service, even if they otherwise support themselves. Put simply access to health care should be a function of success.

 

[aspawloski4th]

It seems more like a kind of “natural justice” argument, loosely related to survival of the fittest. Those who cannot afford the service don’t deserve the service, even if they otherwise support themselves. Put simply access to health care should be a function of success (or lack of).

And most success has a big factor of luck in it.

 

[pathia]

But still everyone wants to stay here. And foreigners keep wanting to come here.

I don’t want to stay here.

 

[aspawloski4th]

Why do people want to stay here? First I have no family out side the USA, second I don’t know another language. Third I am not a nomadic spirit, I hate the process of moving more than kidneystones. In my case there’s another person in the mix, my wife, she would never ever moving away from family( she was taught as a child that you dont do things like that), I’d have to lear another set of cultural ways of life, which at my ago, I dont have it in me to do. Telling some who is poor to move is silly.

 

[rtconstant]

Actually, to be honest I read the post to which you were responding too quickly and misread what it was saying.

As for whether Arwen’s ideas reflect "Calvinist’ ideas, it depends on which Calvinist ideas. As I’ve said elsewhere, I’m skeptical of the “Weberian” thesis that attributes to Calvinism the notion that wealth is generally a blessing from God and the poor usually deserve to be so. But certainly Calvinism can lead to callousness on the grounds that “ungodly” people are unworthy of compassion. It all depends on which version of Calvinism you go with. The “theonomist” writer Gary North (anathema sit) does use Calvinism to argue for libertarian capitalism, arguing that the “godly” shouldn’t have to pay to supply the needs of the “ungodly.” But other Calvinists of my acquaintance would say that this is a total perversion of the historic Reformed position.

I would actually say that attributing such ideas to evangelicalism as a whole is even less fair. 19th-century evangelicalism was very much tied to social reform and taking care of the poor, even if this was sometimes patronizing and moralistic. But certainly the individualism of modern evangelicalism has done immense damage.

Edwin

I may be being unfair. I was raised in a Calvinist Evangelical home and grew up in that realm, where that many of the ideals being expressed in this thread were just assumed truths. I went to Liberty University during the hay day of the Moral Majority, and all of these “conservative” ideals were never questioned. So to me when I was an Evangelical you couldn’t separate “conservative” of “neo-conservative” political thought from our religion. In the words of Jerry Falwell “Get’em saved, get’em baptised and get’em registered.”

The things that we wanted were no ERA, strong military, and no Abortion. As I look back it seems like that we started to align ourselves more to the GOP to get those things, and so we started winking at everything else that came with it. My family had always been a Union family, but slowly we started fall in line with a political view point that was hostile to workers rights. We closed our eyes as deregulation destroyed the economic foundation that was part of what made our nations standard of living so high.

Eventually, I became a Catholic and my world view changed. Now I look at my parents and they would never dream of questioning “conservative” political ideas even though these ideas are counter to what they believe spiritually.

Anyway, I’m just saying all of this to give you an idea of where I’m coming from when I made the comment. I realize though that you’re a very historically knowledgeable person, and so my experiences may not be true of the whole. If so then I bow to history.

 

[Contarini]

Thank you for enlightening us to your ignorance of our possition. Those like me are not against charity and likely give more in charity than some who posting here in support of higher taxes for health care. You seem to beleive that we are against giving to the poor and those in need. That is not the case.

No, I did not mean to imply that. However, you and Arwen are two different people, and I was speaking of Arwen’s posts at that point.

We support works of charity and kindness. We also put in many hours of volunteer work. The only place we disagree is with the use of force. We do not believe that force should be used to subvert someones ability to offer charity. This is backed by the Bible and Catholic teaching.

I know of nothing in either the Bible or Catholic teaching which says that the government cannot use its taxation powers to provide for the poor. Bear in mind that in the Middle Ages the tithe was a legal tax imposed by “force” (to use your rather reductionistic language). I may be ignorant of your position (though I think not, since nothing you have said in this post has surprised me), but you appear to be ignorant of the Bible and Catholic tradition, to which you appeal.

Edwin

 

[aspawloski4th]

No, I did not mean to imply that. However, you and Arwen are two different people, and I was speaking of Arwen’s posts at that point.

I know of nothing in either the Bible or Catholic teaching which says that the government cannot use its taxation powers to provide for the poor. Bear in mind that in the Middle Ages the tithe was a legal tax imposed by “force” (to use your rather reductionistic language). I may be ignorant of your position (though I think not, since nothing you have said in this post has surprised me), but you appear to be ignorant of the Bible and Catholic tradition, to which you appeal.

Edwin

Royal Archer is just misguided, Arwen cares for no one but himself.

 

[Arwen037]

First off, I’m a girl. Female. You should use she, her, etc.

Second, you’re wrong. I support people’s rights. I believe it is a right to keep the money you work for. It is not a right to take away from someone else to pay your bills. It is a duty to help the less fortunate, but the government has no self-control. The government gives to people who choose not to work. The government enables irresponsibility in regards to personal health. I support the government taxing for the good of all, but this is only for the good of the poor. You do not have the right to demand that I turn over my money to you.

Finally, the bible doesn’t say we have to give the government the power to redistribute wealth. And the middle ages is a different situation. That behavior would not be allowed in this country because that would fall under establishment of a religion. I wouldn’t agree with that kind of tax either.

 

[aspawloski4th]

First off, I’m a girl. Female. You should use she, her, etc.

Second, you’re wrong. I support people’s rights. I believe it is a right to keep the money you work for. It is not a right to take away from someone else to pay your bills. It is a duty to help the less fortunate, but the government has no self-control. The government gives to people who choose not to work. The government enables irresponsibility in regards to personal health. I support the government taxing for the good of all, but this is only for the good of the poor. You do not have the right to demand that I turn over my money to you.

Finally, the bible doesn’t say we have to give the government the power to redistribute wealth. And the middle ages is a different situation. That behavior would not be allowed in this country because that would fall under establishment of a religion. I wouldn’t agree with that kind of tax either.

Well sorry! Maam . We already tax people for the poor, it’s called medicaid. In my disabled wife’s case is called medicare, for which she would be dead if it didn’t exist.I’m sick and tired of you busniess type saying CHOOSE to work. I didn’t choose to be let go from my primary job, or hours slashed at my secondary job, you don’t know the meaning of choice sis. As far as personal health , most of that is genetic. You could eat the healthiest diet on the face of the Earth and you are not going to live byond 70 in my wife’s family. You can the worst stuff on earth in mine and it will take a Mac truck to take you life before 75 in my family. You could eat pure saturated fat and you cholesterol will never reach a 100 if you are in my father’s family.The doesn’t say much about wealth because God put that in the hands of the church, there never was supposed to be a Bible in the first place. Giving healthcare isn’t redistributing wealth.

 

[apromisemade]

Well sorry! Maam . We already tax people for the poor, it’s called medicaid. In my disabled wife’s case is called medicare, for which she would be dead if it didn’t exist.I’m sick and tired of you busniess type saying CHOOSE to work. I didn’t choose to be let go from my primary job, or hours slashed at my secondary job, you don’t know the meaning of choice sis. As far as personal health , most of that is genetic. You could eat the healthiest diet on the face of the Earth and you are not going to live byond 70 in my wife’s family. You can the worst stuff on earth in mine and it will take a Mac truck to take you life before 75 in my family. You could eat pure saturated fat and you cholesterol will never reach a 100 if you are in my father’s family.The doesn’t say much about wealth because God put that in the hands of the church, there never was supposed to be a Bible in the first place. Giving healthcare isn’t redistributing wealth.

Amen brother. I think people like Arwen should “walk a mile in another mans shoes” before they make such brash judgements about programs like Medicare.

And, sorry, but I don’t buy the whole, “taxes aren’t charity because they’re making us be charitable” argument. It just sounds to me like another way of saying “I shouldn’t have to help other people unless I feel like it.”

 

[Arwen037]

Well sorry! Maam .

If I called pathia a man you would have jumped on me, wouldn’t you?

I’m sick and tired of you busniess type saying CHOOSE to work. I didn’t choose to be let go from my primary job, or hours slashed at my secondary job, you don’t know the meaning of choice sis.

I’m not saying everyone who is without health care or a job chose it. But the government doesn’t distinguish between those who do and those who don’t. Which is part of my problem with it.

Edit: Oh, and I’m not a business type. I’m in physical therapy. You know what they say about assuming.

As far as personal health , most of that is genetic.

Again I never said everyone, but again the government doesn’t distinguish.

The doesn’t say much about wealth because God put that in the hands of the church, there never was supposed to be a Bible in the first place. Giving healthcare isn’t redistributing wealth.

By “the” I assume you mean the Bible. Yes, God put wealth in the hands of the CHURCH, not the STATE. And if there never was supposed to be a Bible, then why did God inspire it? Are you saying God didn’t mean to inspire men to write the Bible? If you aren’t, then the Bible was supposed to be here.